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The main reason is that both EVs and ICE vehicles have complex supply chains that are currently being disrupted. It isn't like ICE vehicle's supply chains can't

The main reason is that both EVs and ICE vehicles have complex supply chains that are currently being disrupted. It isn't like ICE vehicle's supply chains can't be disrupted like an EV supply chain, it is just disrupted by different things. I ordered a Ford Maverick Hybrid last year in October. Things that have been constraining items for Ford in that last year: Spray in Bed Liner Co-Pilot 360 (Blind spot monitoring and such which is on both regular gas vehicles and hybrids) Luxury Package (Again available across both gas and hybrid, I believe because of heated seats) Tonneau Cover (Again available across both gas and hybrid) Mud Flaps Overall EVs are mostly new vehicles, new vehicles tend to require new parts so the supply chains are younger and less robust. Older EVs such as the Chevy Bolt seem to be available right now.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea. I'm saying that an EV is, by some definition, unreliable from the drawing board onwards. To really put the cat among the pigeons - does this make it, in a practical sense, less sustainable?
- to11mtm 4y ago
  Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.
  - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
    My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
    - duped 4y ago
      So does depending on anything with plastics or steel
- sbradford26 4y ago
  Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.
  - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
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    - sbradford26 4y ago
      Minimizing electronics makes vehicles that people are not interested in buying. Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable. Making incredibly inefficient vehicles just because in these market conditions it is easier isn't sustainable, at some point you are going to have to make vehicles people want. Every time this comes up people say that want a vehicle with no electronics what so ever but that isn't what sells. The most sustainable path is to sell the most efficient type of vehicles that consumers will buy. Currently that is EVs and hybrids. Also in reference to you links, gas vehicles are also largely delayed there. And from my experience there are Bolts and priuses sitting on the lots in the US, now they are charging markups on them but that is the current market. Not sure what the situation is in Canada.
      - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
        That's an interesting argument. >Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable From a business standpoint, yes. However, making unsustainable (and unobtainable) vehicles that people do want, at least keeps the automotive industry alive (for now).
Gordonjcp 4y ago
You could make a perfectly usable ICE-powered vehicle from scratch in a blacksmith's forge, and indeed that's basically how the earliest ones were made. Good luck doing that with an electric vehicle.
- sbradford26 4y ago
  That isn't really a worthwhile path to go down. Since said vehicle would be barely functionable. If that is the threshold I can wrap copper wire to make my own electric motor and put thousands of potato batteries in parallel to connect to it. Then control speed by manually touching the wires together. I believe the first EV might even predate the first ICE vehicle. Reference: https://www.energy.gov/timeline/timeline-history-electric-car#:~:text=Around%201832%2C%20Robert%20Anderson%20develops,an%20English%20inventor%20in%201884 https://www.energy.gov/timeline/timeline-history-electric-ca.... https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/who-invented-the-first-car-and-when-was-it-made-76976#:~:text=Benz%2C%20a%20mechanical%20engineer%2C%20takes,received%20on%20January%2029%2C%201886 https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/who-invented-the-fir....
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    "Barely functional" in what sense?
    - sbradford26 4y ago
      The vehicle you could make with a "Black smiths forge" would be barely functional by todays standards. If your standard is something that converts stored energy into motion EVs and ICE takes similar levels of technology to implement. Which is why they were both invented around similar times.
      - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
        >Which is why they were both invented around similar times. The ease with which you can make oil-based fuels convert chemical energy into mecahnical motion, is the reason that EV development largely stopped until quite recently. Efficient EVs are the pinnacle of materials and electronics engineering.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago

All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea. I'm saying that an EV is, by some definition, unreliable from the drawing board onwards. To really put the cat among the pigeons - does this make it, in a practical sense, less sustainable?

to11mtm 4y ago
Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
  - duped 4y ago
    So does depending on anything with plastics or steel
sbradford26 4y ago
Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  [dead]
  - sbradford26 4y ago
    Minimizing electronics makes vehicles that people are not interested in buying. Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable. Making incredibly inefficient vehicles just because in these market conditions it is easier isn't sustainable, at some point you are going to have to make vehicles people want. Every time this comes up people say that want a vehicle with no electronics what so ever but that isn't what sells. The most sustainable path is to sell the most efficient type of vehicles that consumers will buy. Currently that is EVs and hybrids. Also in reference to you links, gas vehicles are also largely delayed there. And from my experience there are Bolts and priuses sitting on the lots in the US, now they are charging markups on them but that is the current market. Not sure what the situation is in Canada.
    - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
      That's an interesting argument. >Making vehicles that people don't want isn't sustainable From a business standpoint, yes. However, making unsustainable (and unobtainable) vehicles that people do want, at least keeps the automotive industry alive (for now).

Gordonjcp 4y ago

You could make a perfectly usable ICE-powered vehicle from scratch in a blacksmith's forge, and indeed that's basically how the earliest ones were made. Good luck doing that with an electric vehicle.

sbradford26 4y ago
That isn't really a worthwhile path to go down. Since said vehicle would be barely functionable. If that is the threshold I can wrap copper wire to make my own electric motor and put thousands of potato batteries in parallel to connect to it. Then control speed by manually touching the wires together. I believe the first EV might even predate the first ICE vehicle. Reference: https://www.energy.gov/timeline/timeline-history-electric-car#:~:text=Around%201832%2C%20Robert%20Anderson%20develops,an%20English%20inventor%20in%201884 https://www.energy.gov/timeline/timeline-history-electric-ca.... https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/who-invented-the-first-car-and-when-was-it-made-76976#:~:text=Benz%2C%20a%20mechanical%20engineer%2C%20takes,received%20on%20January%2029%2C%201886 https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/who-invented-the-fir....
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  "Barely functional" in what sense?
  - sbradford26 4y ago
    The vehicle you could make with a "Black smiths forge" would be barely functional by todays standards. If your standard is something that converts stored energy into motion EVs and ICE takes similar levels of technology to implement. Which is why they were both invented around similar times.
    - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
      >Which is why they were both invented around similar times. The ease with which you can make oil-based fuels convert chemical energy into mecahnical motion, is the reason that EV development largely stopped until quite recently. Efficient EVs are the pinnacle of materials and electronics engineering.