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Battery fanbois choose to ignore why batteries suck so much: they weigh too much, they take up a lot of space, and they take forever to recharge. They see hydro

Battery fanbois choose to ignore why batteries suck so much: they weigh too much, they take up a lot of space, and they take forever to recharge. They see hydrocarbon based fuels are dirty, but you cannot really beat that energy density.

onethought 4y ago
Not just dirty but also relatively finite (on earth). Hydrogen is generally manufactured from fossil fuels.
- goethes_kind 4y ago
  So are batteries and the energy they are charged with. That is such a dishonest argument. Of course the intention is not to dig up hydrocarbons to then transform them into hydrogen to then later transform them back into hydrocarbons.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Even if you assume ample clean electrical energy as a given, breaking up hydrocarbons is still the easiest way to get hydrogen. Together, solar/wind/nuclear/hydro produce about a third of all the world's electrical generation. Despite this, only 4% of hydrogen production in 2020 used electrolysis; 95% was produced from fossil fuels.
    - erichocean 4y ago
      > Together, solar/wind/nuclear/hydro produce about a third of all the world's electrical generation. Including nuclear and hydro in the 1/3 is kind of deceptive since both sources are actively been phased out (c.f. Germany). Wind and solar generate just over 1/10 of global energy, although it's increasing every year.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Deceptive? I'm comparing sources of hydrogen that don't produce CO2, to those that do. The supply of carbon neutral electrical power far surpasses the supply of carbon neutral hydrogen power. It's not even close. I don't know why you're bringing Germany specifically into this (misdirection? deception?) The overwhelming majority of hydrogen production comes from fossil fuels no matter what country you look at. If you replaced all the nuclear and hydro in the world with solar power, most hydrogen production would still be coming from hydrocarbons. Germany produces about 10% of their electrical energy with solar power, so do you think they produce 10% of their hydrogen with solar powered electrolysis? Hell no they don't. Electricity -> hydrogen sucks even if you have a 100% solar grid. "Green hydrogen" cannot compete with batteries. Hydrogen only looks kinda okay relative to batteries if you're getting the hydrogen cheap by breaking apart hydrocarbons instead of water (aka "gray hydrogen"), and even then it sucks and has gotten out competed.
        erichocean 4y ago
        > I don't know why you're bringing Germany specifically into this (misdirection? deception?) Neither, here's why: > Germany shut down three of its six nuclear power stations last year [i.e. 2021] and is due to close the remaining trio by the end of 2022. Source: https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-crisis-germany-nuclear-power-debate/#:~:text=Germany%20shut%20down%20three%20of,accident%20at%20Japan's%20Fukushima%20plant https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-crisis-germany-nuclear-p....
        onethought 4y ago
        Germany is indicative of the world? I don’t think so. This is a dishonest angle. More recently Germany has removed the 2022 deadline for the remaining 3 and is considering reversing the whole decision.
        erichocean 4y ago
        > Germany is indicative of the world? California is also set to shut down their final remaining nuclear power plant. Source: https://calmatters.org/environment/2022/06/california-nuclear-power-pge-diablo-canyon/ https://calmatters.org/environment/2022/06/california-nuclea...
  - onethought 4y ago
    It’s not dishonest at all. There is a very real path to renewable energy with solar and wind. There is not one for hydrogen manufacture (unless you provision heaps of renewables to do it, in which case why waste time on the hydrogen step - just put the energy straight in the battery)
MafellUser 4y ago
All good but you know that every single hydrogen car contains a generator that powers an electric motor, right? If batteries take so much space how comes EVs have FRUNKs while no ICE does? Oh because there's no need for a massive engine block, center diff, etc. If you want to beat the efficiency, why not have everything nuclear powered?
- goethes_kind 4y ago
  The advantage of batteries is that you can manufacture them into any form and in case of cars, you can just hide them under the floor. Fine, works well enough in that particular use case. Does not discredit the what I said at all. There are many other applications where the volume and weight of the battery would make it unfeasible.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    > The advantage of batteries is that you can manufacture them into any form Can you really though? For EVs they're all using the classic cylindrical shape as far as I've seen.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      Its largely Tesla that is using the cylinder shape batteries. It seems to me most of the other manufacturers are using prismatic cells.
    - HPsquared 4y ago
      Batteries, not cells
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        Battery.. packs? The cells are the batteries. It's like conflating gasoline with gasoline tanks.
        4y ago
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Hydrogen is missing one vital thing to be classed as a hydrocarbon based fuel. You can extract Hydrogen from hydrocarbons, but you probably don't want to do that, for multiple reasons, if the carbon is fossil carbon.
rootusrootus 4y ago
Looking over the steady increase in energy density and steady decrease in recharge time, the future of batteries still looks pretty bright. Another 20 years and we'll see parity with liquid fuels for effective energy density.

onethought 4y ago

Not just dirty but also relatively finite (on earth). Hydrogen is generally manufactured from fossil fuels.

goethes_kind 4y ago
So are batteries and the energy they are charged with. That is such a dishonest argument. Of course the intention is not to dig up hydrocarbons to then transform them into hydrogen to then later transform them back into hydrocarbons.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Even if you assume ample clean electrical energy as a given, breaking up hydrocarbons is still the easiest way to get hydrogen. Together, solar/wind/nuclear/hydro produce about a third of all the world's electrical generation. Despite this, only 4% of hydrogen production in 2020 used electrolysis; 95% was produced from fossil fuels.
  - erichocean 4y ago
    > Together, solar/wind/nuclear/hydro produce about a third of all the world's electrical generation. Including nuclear and hydro in the 1/3 is kind of deceptive since both sources are actively been phased out (c.f. Germany). Wind and solar generate just over 1/10 of global energy, although it's increasing every year.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Deceptive? I'm comparing sources of hydrogen that don't produce CO2, to those that do. The supply of carbon neutral electrical power far surpasses the supply of carbon neutral hydrogen power. It's not even close. I don't know why you're bringing Germany specifically into this (misdirection? deception?) The overwhelming majority of hydrogen production comes from fossil fuels no matter what country you look at. If you replaced all the nuclear and hydro in the world with solar power, most hydrogen production would still be coming from hydrocarbons. Germany produces about 10% of their electrical energy with solar power, so do you think they produce 10% of their hydrogen with solar powered electrolysis? Hell no they don't. Electricity -> hydrogen sucks even if you have a 100% solar grid. "Green hydrogen" cannot compete with batteries. Hydrogen only looks kinda okay relative to batteries if you're getting the hydrogen cheap by breaking apart hydrocarbons instead of water (aka "gray hydrogen"), and even then it sucks and has gotten out competed.
      - erichocean 4y ago
        > I don't know why you're bringing Germany specifically into this (misdirection? deception?) Neither, here's why: > Germany shut down three of its six nuclear power stations last year [i.e. 2021] and is due to close the remaining trio by the end of 2022. Source: https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-crisis-germany-nuclear-power-debate/#:~:text=Germany%20shut%20down%20three%20of,accident%20at%20Japan's%20Fukushima%20plant https://www.politico.eu/article/gas-crisis-germany-nuclear-p....
        onethought 4y ago
        Germany is indicative of the world? I don’t think so. This is a dishonest angle. More recently Germany has removed the 2022 deadline for the remaining 3 and is considering reversing the whole decision.
        erichocean 4y ago
        > Germany is indicative of the world? California is also set to shut down their final remaining nuclear power plant. Source: https://calmatters.org/environment/2022/06/california-nuclear-power-pge-diablo-canyon/ https://calmatters.org/environment/2022/06/california-nuclea...
- onethought 4y ago
  It’s not dishonest at all. There is a very real path to renewable energy with solar and wind. There is not one for hydrogen manufacture (unless you provision heaps of renewables to do it, in which case why waste time on the hydrogen step - just put the energy straight in the battery)

MafellUser 4y ago

All good but you know that every single hydrogen car contains a generator that powers an electric motor, right? If batteries take so much space how comes EVs have FRUNKs while no ICE does? Oh because there's no need for a massive engine block, center diff, etc. If you want to beat the efficiency, why not have everything nuclear powered?

goethes_kind 4y ago
The advantage of batteries is that you can manufacture them into any form and in case of cars, you can just hide them under the floor. Fine, works well enough in that particular use case. Does not discredit the what I said at all. There are many other applications where the volume and weight of the battery would make it unfeasible.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > The advantage of batteries is that you can manufacture them into any form Can you really though? For EVs they're all using the classic cylindrical shape as far as I've seen.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Its largely Tesla that is using the cylinder shape batteries. It seems to me most of the other manufacturers are using prismatic cells.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    Batteries, not cells
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Battery.. packs? The cells are the batteries. It's like conflating gasoline with gasoline tanks.
      - 4y ago

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Hydrogen is missing one vital thing to be classed as a hydrocarbon based fuel. You can extract Hydrogen from hydrocarbons, but you probably don't want to do that, for multiple reasons, if the carbon is fossil carbon.

rootusrootus 4y ago

Looking over the steady increase in energy density and steady decrease in recharge time, the future of batteries still looks pretty bright. Another 20 years and we'll see parity with liquid fuels for effective energy density.