4 ms·

I'm very curious why this statement is so unpopular. It's demonstrably true, at the current moment.

robin_reala 4y ago
Presumably because the supply chain problems have also been impacting non-EV vehicles. Peugeot last year had to switch back to analogue dashes on some models as the electronics for the fancy screens weren’t available.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  At least that is an option for a non-EV! Maybe Hyundai should work on a mechanical or otherwise analogue motor controller.
  - nikau 4y ago
    Now you are thinking outside the box! why don't Hyundai just use a potentiometer to control the motor. They can even make it go to 11 on the performance spec.
sbradford26 4y ago
The main reason is that both EVs and ICE vehicles have complex supply chains that are currently being disrupted. It isn't like ICE vehicle's supply chains can't be disrupted like an EV supply chain, it is just disrupted by different things. I ordered a Ford Maverick Hybrid last year in October. Things that have been constraining items for Ford in that last year: Spray in Bed Liner Co-Pilot 360 (Blind spot monitoring and such which is on both regular gas vehicles and hybrids) Luxury Package (Again available across both gas and hybrid, I believe because of heated seats) Tonneau Cover (Again available across both gas and hybrid) Mud Flaps Overall EVs are mostly new vehicles, new vehicles tend to require new parts so the supply chains are younger and less robust. Older EVs such as the Chevy Bolt seem to be available right now.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea. I'm saying that an EV is, by some definition, unreliable from the drawing board onwards. To really put the cat among the pigeons - does this make it, in a practical sense, less sustainable?
  - to11mtm 4y ago
    Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.
    - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
      My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
      - duped 4y ago
        So does depending on anything with plastics or steel
  - sbradford26 4y ago
    Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.
praxulus 4y ago
>When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs I haven never heard of somebody talking about the "reliability" of a car, or any other durable good, in reference to the reliability of its supply chain. Saying that a product has a fragile supply chain is not a valid counterargument to somebody touting its reliability. "EVs have an especially fragile supply chain" could be a true statement on its own, but "EVs have a fragile supply chain, therefore they're unreliable" is only true if we use a different definition of "reliability" than people typically use in the context you gave.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  Interesting thing to think about, eh? I think we are going through a permanent shift in the availability of electronic components, and this idea will become more widespread (that is, the reliability of supply chains),
  - praxulus 4y ago
    Not really. Also using words in a different way than everyone else doesn't make you insightful, it makes you a bad communicator.

Presumably because the supply chain problems have also been impacting non-EV vehicles. Peugeot last year had to switch back to analogue dashes on some models as the electronics for the fancy screens weren’t available.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
At least that is an option for a non-EV! Maybe Hyundai should work on a mechanical or otherwise analogue motor controller.
- nikau 4y ago
  Now you are thinking outside the box! why don't Hyundai just use a potentiometer to control the motor. They can even make it go to 11 on the performance spec.

sbradford26 4y ago

The main reason is that both EVs and ICE vehicles have complex supply chains that are currently being disrupted. It isn't like ICE vehicle's supply chains can't be disrupted like an EV supply chain, it is just disrupted by different things. I ordered a Ford Maverick Hybrid last year in October. Things that have been constraining items for Ford in that last year: Spray in Bed Liner Co-Pilot 360 (Blind spot monitoring and such which is on both regular gas vehicles and hybrids) Luxury Package (Again available across both gas and hybrid, I believe because of heated seats) Tonneau Cover (Again available across both gas and hybrid) Mud Flaps Overall EVs are mostly new vehicles, new vehicles tend to require new parts so the supply chains are younger and less robust. Older EVs such as the Chevy Bolt seem to be available right now.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea. I'm saying that an EV is, by some definition, unreliable from the drawing board onwards. To really put the cat among the pigeons - does this make it, in a practical sense, less sustainable?
- to11mtm 4y ago
  Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.
  - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
    My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
    - duped 4y ago
      So does depending on anything with plastics or steel
- sbradford26 4y ago
  Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.

praxulus 4y ago

>When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs I haven never heard of somebody talking about the "reliability" of a car, or any other durable good, in reference to the reliability of its supply chain. Saying that a product has a fragile supply chain is not a valid counterargument to somebody touting its reliability. "EVs have an especially fragile supply chain" could be a true statement on its own, but "EVs have a fragile supply chain, therefore they're unreliable" is only true if we use a different definition of "reliability" than people typically use in the context you gave.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
Interesting thing to think about, eh? I think we are going through a permanent shift in the availability of electronic components, and this idea will become more widespread (that is, the reliability of supply chains),
- praxulus 4y ago
  Not really. Also using words in a different way than everyone else doesn't make you insightful, it makes you a bad communicator.