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When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs, I think that a hugely-overlooked aspect is the reliability of the supply chain (including engineering, design,

When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs, I think that a hugely-overlooked aspect is the reliability of the supply chain (including engineering, design, and component supply). It's all very well having a fantastic design for a zero-emissions, comfortable, fast and efficient family vehicle, but it's not much use if it can't be made.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
I'm very curious why this statement is so unpopular. It's demonstrably true, at the current moment.
- robin_reala 4y ago
  Presumably because the supply chain problems have also been impacting non-EV vehicles. Peugeot last year had to switch back to analogue dashes on some models as the electronics for the fancy screens weren’t available.
  - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
    At least that is an option for a non-EV! Maybe Hyundai should work on a mechanical or otherwise analogue motor controller.
    - nikau 4y ago
      Now you are thinking outside the box! why don't Hyundai just use a potentiometer to control the motor. They can even make it go to 11 on the performance spec.
- sbradford26 4y ago
  The main reason is that both EVs and ICE vehicles have complex supply chains that are currently being disrupted. It isn't like ICE vehicle's supply chains can't be disrupted like an EV supply chain, it is just disrupted by different things. I ordered a Ford Maverick Hybrid last year in October. Things that have been constraining items for Ford in that last year: Spray in Bed Liner Co-Pilot 360 (Blind spot monitoring and such which is on both regular gas vehicles and hybrids) Luxury Package (Again available across both gas and hybrid, I believe because of heated seats) Tonneau Cover (Again available across both gas and hybrid) Mud Flaps Overall EVs are mostly new vehicles, new vehicles tend to require new parts so the supply chains are younger and less robust. Older EVs such as the Chevy Bolt seem to be available right now.
  - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
    All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea. I'm saying that an EV is, by some definition, unreliable from the drawing board onwards. To really put the cat among the pigeons - does this make it, in a practical sense, less sustainable?
    - to11mtm 4y ago
      Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.
      - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
        My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
        duped 4y ago
        So does depending on anything with plastics or steel
    - sbradford26 4y ago
      Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.
- praxulus 4y ago
  >When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs I haven never heard of somebody talking about the "reliability" of a car, or any other durable good, in reference to the reliability of its supply chain. Saying that a product has a fragile supply chain is not a valid counterargument to somebody touting its reliability. "EVs have an especially fragile supply chain" could be a true statement on its own, but "EVs have a fragile supply chain, therefore they're unreliable" is only true if we use a different definition of "reliability" than people typically use in the context you gave.
  - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
    Interesting thing to think about, eh? I think we are going through a permanent shift in the availability of electronic components, and this idea will become more widespread (that is, the reliability of supply chains),
    - praxulus 4y ago
      Not really. Also using words in a different way than everyone else doesn't make you insightful, it makes you a bad communicator.
magicalhippo 4y ago
At the one hand you have a point. Semiconductor production can be quite specialized, and an accident at a fab can completely halt the production of certain products for years if not permanently. This is what happened to AKM[1] not long ago. On the other hand it seems unlikely to me that auto manufactures would allow their portfolio to be so exposed. If this accident had been more like the AKM fire, I'm sure Kia would have found a replacement chip. And as others have pointed out, it's not like modern ICEs can be made for sale without quite a lot of advanced electronics. [1]: https://www.audioholics.com/news/fire-destroys-akm-audio-chip-factory https://www.audioholics.com/news/fire-destroys-akm-audio-chi... (also see comment from "Matthew J Poes").
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  >On the other hand it seems unlikely to me that auto manufactures would allow their portfolio to be so exposed. Yet here we are. >it's not like modern ICEs can be made for sale without quite a lot of advanced electronics. Indeed. We're all doomed.
outworlder 4y ago
> When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs, I think that a hugely-overlooked aspect is the reliability of the supply chain (including engineering, design, and component supply). It's all very well having a fantastic design for a zero-emissions, comfortable, fast and efficient family vehicle, but it's not much use if it can't be made. This argument is only being made because widespread EV adoption is a new phenomenon and they are still a fraction of the market of ICE cars. We could flip the tables around. Modern car engines are highly precise machines. If we were just starting to make them, they too would have enormous supply chain problems. Only a couple of companies would realistically be able to produce the components with the required tolerances and lifespan. Once most cars on the road are EVs, we'll have plenty of suppliers. And yes, EVs _are_ reliable. Orders of magnitude less components and even fewer moving parts. ICE vehicles require a whole chain supplying more stuff all the time, even for vehicles already on the road. Oh, and don't get started on battery materials. We too thought that our oil reserves were not able to satisfy the demand of so many cars (not to mention other industries). We found new reserves and some that were not economically feasible became available, as technology (and demand) improved.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  >This argument is only being made because widespread EV adoption is a new phenomenon and they are still a fraction of the market of ICE cars. No, it's being made because the manufacture of an EV and all of its component parts requires advanced materials and processes from around the globe. >We could flip the tables around. Modern car engines are highly precise machines. If we were just starting to make them, they too would have enormous supply chain problems. Only a couple of companies would realistically be able to produce the components with the required tolerances and lifespan. Pfff. I could make an ICE engine in my shed, if I wanted to. >And yes, EVs _are_ reliable. Orders of magnitude less components and even fewer moving parts. The stats don't support this. Just because a component shouldn't move, doesn't make it reliable. This is, honestly, a silly argument - everyone knows that the most unreliable and costly part of their car these days is the electronics. https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-gasoline-cars-consumer-reports/ https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-... >Oh, and don't get started on battery materials. We too thought that our oil reserves were not able to satisfy the demand of so many cars (not to mention other industries). We found new reserves and some that were not economically feasible became available, as technology (and demand) improved. True - but shows that EVs don't solve the "we're pulling huge amounts of resources out of the earth's crust" problem. Do you have any idea how much money is being made in the mining industry right now? My partner works in the industry. They don't know what to do with all of the money they are making.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago

I'm very curious why this statement is so unpopular. It's demonstrably true, at the current moment.

robin_reala 4y ago
Presumably because the supply chain problems have also been impacting non-EV vehicles. Peugeot last year had to switch back to analogue dashes on some models as the electronics for the fancy screens weren’t available.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  At least that is an option for a non-EV! Maybe Hyundai should work on a mechanical or otherwise analogue motor controller.
  - nikau 4y ago
    Now you are thinking outside the box! why don't Hyundai just use a potentiometer to control the motor. They can even make it go to 11 on the performance spec.
sbradford26 4y ago
The main reason is that both EVs and ICE vehicles have complex supply chains that are currently being disrupted. It isn't like ICE vehicle's supply chains can't be disrupted like an EV supply chain, it is just disrupted by different things. I ordered a Ford Maverick Hybrid last year in October. Things that have been constraining items for Ford in that last year: Spray in Bed Liner Co-Pilot 360 (Blind spot monitoring and such which is on both regular gas vehicles and hybrids) Luxury Package (Again available across both gas and hybrid, I believe because of heated seats) Tonneau Cover (Again available across both gas and hybrid) Mud Flaps Overall EVs are mostly new vehicles, new vehicles tend to require new parts so the supply chains are younger and less robust. Older EVs such as the Chevy Bolt seem to be available right now.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  All of the things you mention are electronics, which are at least (arguably) optional, or at least minimal, on an ICE. I am not saying an ICE is a better idea. I'm saying that an EV is, by some definition, unreliable from the drawing board onwards. To really put the cat among the pigeons - does this make it, in a practical sense, less sustainable?
  - to11mtm 4y ago
    Not all. AFAIK the spray-in bedliner is a physical component. Tonneau cover, depends on the model. Mine, there was a slight delay, but FWIW was a 'rolling' (i.e. no electronics) style. Mud flaps, pretty sure are not electronic. As another 'ancillary' item, wiring harnesses have been hard to come by, which has an impact on both ICE and EVs. Electronic, but not a silicon supply constrained component per se.
    - rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
      My bad, missed those. My point still stands - a dependency on electronics, and especially cutting-edge electronics, makes you dependendent on a complex and fragile global ecosystem.
      - duped 4y ago
        So does depending on anything with plastics or steel
  - sbradford26 4y ago
    Electronics are not minimal on an ICE. Sure on a very old diesel engine you could make that argument. But modern cars require a whole suite of electronics just for the engine to function. You have position sensors, engine controllers, air flow sensors, emissions sensors, CAN bus modules. Sure it is possible to make a vehicle without those but that vehicle will not be nearly as efficient as modern vehicles, won't run nearly as long, and people won't buy it. Largely the main issue is reliability has nothing to do with it. It is all producibility. Currently every car company is struggling with producing vehicles ICE or EV. Nobody is asking is the Ford Bronco sustainable? Even though the wait time is longer than the Ioniq 5. Vehicles that people are not as excited about like the Prius or the Bolt are available right now.
praxulus 4y ago
>When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs I haven never heard of somebody talking about the "reliability" of a car, or any other durable good, in reference to the reliability of its supply chain. Saying that a product has a fragile supply chain is not a valid counterargument to somebody touting its reliability. "EVs have an especially fragile supply chain" could be a true statement on its own, but "EVs have a fragile supply chain, therefore they're unreliable" is only true if we use a different definition of "reliability" than people typically use in the context you gave.
- rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
  Interesting thing to think about, eh? I think we are going through a permanent shift in the availability of electronic components, and this idea will become more widespread (that is, the reliability of supply chains),
  - praxulus 4y ago
    Not really. Also using words in a different way than everyone else doesn't make you insightful, it makes you a bad communicator.

magicalhippo 4y ago

At the one hand you have a point. Semiconductor production can be quite specialized, and an accident at a fab can completely halt the production of certain products for years if not permanently. This is what happened to AKM[1] not long ago. On the other hand it seems unlikely to me that auto manufactures would allow their portfolio to be so exposed. If this accident had been more like the AKM fire, I'm sure Kia would have found a replacement chip. And as others have pointed out, it's not like modern ICEs can be made for sale without quite a lot of advanced electronics. [1]: https://www.audioholics.com/news/fire-destroys-akm-audio-chip-factory https://www.audioholics.com/news/fire-destroys-akm-audio-chi... (also see comment from "Matthew J Poes").

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
>On the other hand it seems unlikely to me that auto manufactures would allow their portfolio to be so exposed. Yet here we are. >it's not like modern ICEs can be made for sale without quite a lot of advanced electronics. Indeed. We're all doomed.

outworlder 4y ago

> When people talk about the "reliability" of EVs, I think that a hugely-overlooked aspect is the reliability of the supply chain (including engineering, design, and component supply). It's all very well having a fantastic design for a zero-emissions, comfortable, fast and efficient family vehicle, but it's not much use if it can't be made. This argument is only being made because widespread EV adoption is a new phenomenon and they are still a fraction of the market of ICE cars. We could flip the tables around. Modern car engines are highly precise machines. If we were just starting to make them, they too would have enormous supply chain problems. Only a couple of companies would realistically be able to produce the components with the required tolerances and lifespan. Once most cars on the road are EVs, we'll have plenty of suppliers. And yes, EVs _are_ reliable. Orders of magnitude less components and even fewer moving parts. ICE vehicles require a whole chain supplying more stuff all the time, even for vehicles already on the road. Oh, and don't get started on battery materials. We too thought that our oil reserves were not able to satisfy the demand of so many cars (not to mention other industries). We found new reserves and some that were not economically feasible became available, as technology (and demand) improved.

rewiuoeriouf 4y ago
>This argument is only being made because widespread EV adoption is a new phenomenon and they are still a fraction of the market of ICE cars. No, it's being made because the manufacture of an EV and all of its component parts requires advanced materials and processes from around the globe. >We could flip the tables around. Modern car engines are highly precise machines. If we were just starting to make them, they too would have enormous supply chain problems. Only a couple of companies would realistically be able to produce the components with the required tolerances and lifespan. Pfff. I could make an ICE engine in my shed, if I wanted to. >And yes, EVs _are_ reliable. Orders of magnitude less components and even fewer moving parts. The stats don't support this. Just because a component shouldn't move, doesn't make it reliable. This is, honestly, a silly argument - everyone knows that the most unreliable and costly part of their car these days is the electronics. https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-gasoline-cars-consumer-reports/ https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-... >Oh, and don't get started on battery materials. We too thought that our oil reserves were not able to satisfy the demand of so many cars (not to mention other industries). We found new reserves and some that were not economically feasible became available, as technology (and demand) improved. True - but shows that EVs don't solve the "we're pulling huge amounts of resources out of the earth's crust" problem. Do you have any idea how much money is being made in the mining industry right now? My partner works in the industry. They don't know what to do with all of the money they are making.