6 ms·

Powerful? you mean it can do more than is actually possible to do with a mouse?

agentwiggles 4y ago
Power is the amount of work done over a period of time, so even if you can do the same exact set of things with a mouse and keyboard, if the keyboard is faster at doing them, it's more powerful. You can do all your text entry by clicking keys on an on-screen keyboard if you like, but saying that a physical keyboard is a more "powerful" way to enter text seems reasonable to me. (sorry in advance, I know this is needlessly "well ackchually" lol)
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  > but saying that a physical keyboard is a more "powerful" way to enter text seems reasonable to me No. It's faster and that's all. So call it by that word which is very precise. If you say 'power' = 'speed' then you've destroyed the meaning of one of those words, just for the modern habit of co-opting a fancier word for a simpler one. I'd prefer people didn't do that, and differentiated 'speed' from a thing you call power which indicates "I can't do that at all, at any speed". If you don't like bullshit marketing and PR, don't follow it.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > No. It's faster and that's all. So call it by that word which is very precise. Definition of "power" is work done over some unit of time, so OP was using it precisely.
  - clucas 4y ago
    Interesting, so do you avoid describing one programming language as being "more powerful" than another? They're all Turing complete, after all... it's just a question of how fast you can develop in one, right?
    - zasdffaa 4y ago
      Good question, 'power' I reserve for turing completeness (some aren't, such as SQL before recursive CTEs were added, and... well, here's a list https://iq.opengenus.org/non-turing-complete-programming-languages/ https://iq.opengenus.org/non-turing-complete-programming-lan...) For "how much crap do I have to write to get it to do something", I call that expressivity. Scala is more expressive than fractran (I guess...).
      - clucas 4y ago
        Sounds like you are consistent with your usage of terms, and I understand the logic and the motivation. I would just caution that it's fairly idiosyncratic - plenty of people out there don't use the word "power" the way you do. For example, here is how Paul Graham talks about the "power" of programming languages: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Just saying, as consistent as your definitions are internally, being too rigid about it may hinder your ability to communicate with others in the field. Good luck buddy <3
        zasdffaa 4y ago
        Thoughtful reply and it is much appreciated dude, take care!
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        What's the case for power equals Turing completeness over power equals speed of development?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Sparkle-san 4y ago
    If we go by the physics definition power is work over time, so the same work over a shorter time is by definition more powerful. I don't think applying that term to software is inherently wrong.
    - bob29 4y ago
      by the physics definition work is kilograms * meter^2 / sec^2 what computer users do on a computer is not work in the physics sense, maybe in the economic sense
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - agentwiggles 4y ago
    I didn't say "power = speed", I said power is work over time, which is the actual definition and supports the rest of my post. You're the one redefining "power". Again, I fully acknowledge this is nitpicky to the point of absurdity and we're arguing semantics. But if we're gonna argue semantics, then the definitional meaning of power is on my side.
layer8 4y ago
One benefit is that you can operate “blindly”, without needing the hand-eye-coordination feedback loop. This tends to make frequent operations more automatic and decrease cognitive overhead. Another benefit is that keyboard input is higher-bandwith than mouse operations. Imagine a mouse-only interface for everything you can do on the Linux command line, or all the operations you can do in Vim or Emacs (beyond actual text input). It’s more powerful in the sense of “power user”.
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  The keyboard may make things easier, I grant. Then the word is 'easier'. and 'faster'. I do use and like emacs BTW. Then again I have RSI, do you reckon that's easier/faster for me? > Another benefit is that keyboard input is higher-bandwith than mouse operations Depends on the job - a mouse is far higher bandwidth for graphics editing, and I know cos I've done that when mice weren't a standard thing. There's a simplicity of your argument here that misses an important point, use the right tool for the right job. NB. I use a trackball and IMO that is better than a mouse in all situations I can think of. I recommend them.
  - tcoff91 4y ago
    One pointing tool I highly recommend for RSI is the contour rollermouse.
samatman 4y ago
Yes. With a mouse I can select text between brackets and delete it, with vim I can tell the editor to do that. Well, what's the difference? The difference is the editor won't accidentally delete one of the brackets ever. That's not possible with the mouse. That's possible with the keyboard.
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  You've never hit the wrong key on a keyboard and made a mess, ever? I have.
  - samatman 4y ago
    If I mess up I literally hit u before consciously realizing it. I'm not ready to swear I've never mistyped `dib` but it doesn't happen often. Let's say `d8b` for the sake of argument: okay, `d8budib` is a longer way of saying it. Mouse doesn't have an undo button. I use the mouse a lot actually, no rodent allergy here. It's not as powerful a tool, it's just not, but it's versatile and literal, the multitool of the UX: I can always click my way to the state I need if all else fails.
    - badsectoracula 4y ago
      > Mouse doesn't have an undo button. Your keyboard does though, as probably does the GUI of your editor in a toolbar or menu item. It isn't like you have to use only the mouse. The mouse was meant to be used together with the keyboard, not as a replacement.
      - samatman 4y ago
        Yes, yet in a thread specifically about what keyboards can do which mouses can't, "you can use the keyboard for that" is the point. There's a menu item for Undo in most GUI applictions. But who has time? If you can undo from TUI vim without a keystroke, I don't happen to know how.
        4y ago

Power is the amount of work done over a period of time, so even if you can do the same exact set of things with a mouse and keyboard, if the keyboard is faster at doing them, it's more powerful. You can do all your text entry by clicking keys on an on-screen keyboard if you like, but saying that a physical keyboard is a more "powerful" way to enter text seems reasonable to me. (sorry in advance, I know this is needlessly "well ackchually" lol)

zasdffaa 4y ago
> but saying that a physical keyboard is a more "powerful" way to enter text seems reasonable to me No. It's faster and that's all. So call it by that word which is very precise. If you say 'power' = 'speed' then you've destroyed the meaning of one of those words, just for the modern habit of co-opting a fancier word for a simpler one. I'd prefer people didn't do that, and differentiated 'speed' from a thing you call power which indicates "I can't do that at all, at any speed". If you don't like bullshit marketing and PR, don't follow it.
- jjav 4y ago
  > No. It's faster and that's all. So call it by that word which is very precise. Definition of "power" is work done over some unit of time, so OP was using it precisely.
- clucas 4y ago
  Interesting, so do you avoid describing one programming language as being "more powerful" than another? They're all Turing complete, after all... it's just a question of how fast you can develop in one, right?
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    Good question, 'power' I reserve for turing completeness (some aren't, such as SQL before recursive CTEs were added, and... well, here's a list https://iq.opengenus.org/non-turing-complete-programming-languages/ https://iq.opengenus.org/non-turing-complete-programming-lan...) For "how much crap do I have to write to get it to do something", I call that expressivity. Scala is more expressive than fractran (I guess...).
    - clucas 4y ago
      Sounds like you are consistent with your usage of terms, and I understand the logic and the motivation. I would just caution that it's fairly idiosyncratic - plenty of people out there don't use the word "power" the way you do. For example, here is how Paul Graham talks about the "power" of programming languages: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html Just saying, as consistent as your definitions are internally, being too rigid about it may hinder your ability to communicate with others in the field. Good luck buddy <3
      - zasdffaa 4y ago
        Thoughtful reply and it is much appreciated dude, take care!
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      What's the case for power equals Turing completeness over power equals speed of development?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Sparkle-san 4y ago
  If we go by the physics definition power is work over time, so the same work over a shorter time is by definition more powerful. I don't think applying that term to software is inherently wrong.
  - bob29 4y ago
    by the physics definition work is kilograms * meter^2 / sec^2 what computer users do on a computer is not work in the physics sense, maybe in the economic sense
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  I didn't say "power = speed", I said power is work over time, which is the actual definition and supports the rest of my post. You're the one redefining "power". Again, I fully acknowledge this is nitpicky to the point of absurdity and we're arguing semantics. But if we're gonna argue semantics, then the definitional meaning of power is on my side.

layer8 4y ago

One benefit is that you can operate “blindly”, without needing the hand-eye-coordination feedback loop. This tends to make frequent operations more automatic and decrease cognitive overhead. Another benefit is that keyboard input is higher-bandwith than mouse operations. Imagine a mouse-only interface for everything you can do on the Linux command line, or all the operations you can do in Vim or Emacs (beyond actual text input). It’s more powerful in the sense of “power user”.

zasdffaa 4y ago
The keyboard may make things easier, I grant. Then the word is 'easier'. and 'faster'. I do use and like emacs BTW. Then again I have RSI, do you reckon that's easier/faster for me? > Another benefit is that keyboard input is higher-bandwith than mouse operations Depends on the job - a mouse is far higher bandwidth for graphics editing, and I know cos I've done that when mice weren't a standard thing. There's a simplicity of your argument here that misses an important point, use the right tool for the right job. NB. I use a trackball and IMO that is better than a mouse in all situations I can think of. I recommend them.
- tcoff91 4y ago
  One pointing tool I highly recommend for RSI is the contour rollermouse.

samatman 4y ago

Yes. With a mouse I can select text between brackets and delete it, with vim I can tell the editor to do that. Well, what's the difference? The difference is the editor won't accidentally delete one of the brackets ever. That's not possible with the mouse. That's possible with the keyboard.

zasdffaa 4y ago
You've never hit the wrong key on a keyboard and made a mess, ever? I have.
- samatman 4y ago
  If I mess up I literally hit u before consciously realizing it. I'm not ready to swear I've never mistyped `dib` but it doesn't happen often. Let's say `d8b` for the sake of argument: okay, `d8budib` is a longer way of saying it. Mouse doesn't have an undo button. I use the mouse a lot actually, no rodent allergy here. It's not as powerful a tool, it's just not, but it's versatile and literal, the multitool of the UX: I can always click my way to the state I need if all else fails.
  - badsectoracula 4y ago
    > Mouse doesn't have an undo button. Your keyboard does though, as probably does the GUI of your editor in a toolbar or menu item. It isn't like you have to use only the mouse. The mouse was meant to be used together with the keyboard, not as a replacement.
    - samatman 4y ago
      Yes, yet in a thread specifically about what keyboards can do which mouses can't, "you can use the keyboard for that" is the point. There's a menu item for Undo in most GUI applictions. But who has time? If you can undo from TUI vim without a keystroke, I don't happen to know how.
      - 4y ago