9 ms·

Psychedelic drugs hurt few and could help many. California must decriminalize

40 points by failTide 4y ago

failTide 4y ago
This bill (sb-519) goes to the Assembly Appropriations Committee tomorrow - I'm keeping my fingers crossed. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billStatusClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220SB519 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billStatusClient.xh...
lysergia 4y ago
I’m all for psychedelic therapy especially for those with a terminal illness and in a controlled environment with a sitter or an experienced psychonaut, but psychedelics are a double edged sword and need to be treated as such. So many going fully mentally ill after taking them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- quantified 4y ago
  80% or 0.03%? How do you arrive at your estimate? What is your definition of mentally ill? I concur that it gets treated with respect. Societies have typically codified this respect as "ritual".
  - lysergia 4y ago
    By mentally ill I mean it can cause extreme paranoia. Obviously not in all cases. It depends on set and setting. Imagine taking shrooms at a death metal concert and seeing demons for example. I’m all for the ritualistic set and setting, and eating well beforehand and maybe making a mixtape of good music to listen to whilst tripping. You don’t take these things going in blind.
    - quantified 4y ago
      That is really rare, especially for mushrooms and baby woodrose. We approve meds with far higher rates of serious side effects.
renewiltord 4y ago
Defacto legal in the Bay Area and it hasn't collapsed yet.
- JasserInicide 4y ago
  You been to SF recently?
  - scelerat 4y ago
    You're likely observing the fallout from meth and opiod addiction, not psychedelics
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    I live here and have lived in many other cities on other continents. It's honestly fine. The TL is in terrible shape as is the mid-Market area but most of the city is fine. And tbh, pre Zide Door and the Ayahuasca places (which I haven't been to) it was the same.
hirundo 4y ago
This bill would make lawful the possession, obtaining, giving away, or transportation of, specified quantities of psilocybin, psilocyn, dimethyltryptamine (DMT), ibogaine, mescaline, lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), (MDMA) for personal use or facilitated or supported use, as defined, by and with persons 21 years of age or older. It's great that this is an attempt at real decriminilization rather than sentencing reform or some form of deprioritization that doesn't change the criminal law. It would be nice if one of the facilitated uses is to give the legislators the option to experience some of these substances so that they can make better informed law. But probably not when in session.
IceMetalPunk 4y ago
I think the definition of "hurt" is relative. I've heard so many people describe their experiences on psychedelics as, to paraphrase, seeing more of reality, seeing the true nature of reality, expanding their minds, etc. In reality, they make you hallucinate, i.e. perceive things that are not real; the feelings of expansion are just part of the brain-meddling they cause. If people can separate their experiences from reality, then sure, I have no problem with them (just don't do them alone, in case you have a bad trip). But because so many people don't seem to be able to make that distinction, it's kind of a major problem.
- quantified 4y ago
  Watching TV makes you perceive things that are not real. Some religious sects ban reading of novels and such for reasons including this. Yet TV, novels, propaganda are somehow more OK? Oh, yes, and dreaming while asleep, which seems to have benefit for the basic function of our brains. And psychedelics give you the ability to re-perceive prior events in differenr ways. That is a super-important fact for therapeutic purposes. Personally, it just sounds likewe should accept that things which are enjoyable can be useful and vice versa.
  - IceMetalPunk 4y ago
    I think you missed my point. Perceiving things that are not real isn't the problem. Perceiving things that are not real, and then thinking they are real, is the problem. If someone watches Moon Knight, that's fine (and also a great show, imho); if someone watches Moon Knight and now believes the Egyptian gods are real and giving people superpowers, that is NOT fine. And no, I don't think religion or propaganda are okay, either, for the same reason. "And psychedelics give you the ability to re-perceive prior events in different ways. That is a super-important fact for therapeutic purposes." It is... as long as the new perception aligns with reality. If it doesn't, then regardless of its potential therapeutic properties, it is harmful. "Personally, it just sounds like we should accept that things which are enjoyable can be useful and vice versa." Anything can be enjoyable to someone, and many things can be useful. It's about balancing the benefits against the harms and not ignoring either side.
throw_acct_919 4y ago
My spouse is cancer patient, and it helped her a lot to go through the times of intense stress with only microdosing liberty cap psilocybin mushrooms. It also helped myself as well, the only regret I have - why we haven't discovered it earlier.
ncmncm 4y ago
Psychedelics can be extremely helpful for most people. But don't ever give LSD to somebody fighting schizophrenia. It will not turn out well. But I have seen MDMA lead them to believe actual treatment is possible, and find it.
w10-1 4y ago
This is insane. The solution is to study the drugs and permit limited usage under medical care -- i.e., for the federal government to lower the schedule and fund research. California decrimininalizing would open the floodgates to abuse, of the weak by the powerful. Imagine companies with billions at stake selling high's to anyone who's troubled. The decriminalize-now push is not for medical reasons, but for an industry to make money off people's pain. None of the bill's "protections" -- "for personal use" "over 21" -- are effectively enforceable. Microdosing has been shown to be indistinguishable from placebo in its short term effects (i.e., it has no real effectiveness), but that doesn't mean full doses or regular use is safe. Unlike marijuana, there's a lot of evidence that brain and psychological damage from bad trips is permanent. Anecdotally, I'm old enough to know people who died, and others who never really came back, after using psychotropics. To me decriminalizing psychotropics is about as socially beneficial as dropping napalm on villages in Vietnam. Finally, this will definitely sink Democrats nationally. It's inexplicable to anyone outside hyper-liberal enclaves why you would permit big business to fry the brains of troubled people.
- nus07 4y ago
  This here ^. While it could have a lot of benefits for some folks, I have also seen the negative effects in the city of Portland, OR.Portland has a severe mental health crisis and not enough mental health workers or police expertise to deal with it . As a result walking through downtown and SE seems like an episode of the Walking Dead. This might be be beneficial to some health cases but it’s also going to attract a lot of unchecked drug use without enough support or studies to deal with the side effects .
  - skavi 4y ago
    Are you sure you can tie those problems in Portland to abuse of psychedelic drugs? Given that connection, are you sure that decriminalization is what caused increasing abuse rates in Portland? IIRC, that was instituted in 2020, and the pandemic mucked up a few things since then.
- failTide 4y ago
  Sending people to jail for growing personal-use quantities has probably ruined many more lives than psychedelics. It's sickening.
jokoon 4y ago
Everybody want to replace SSRI with LSD and psilocybin. A business opportunity.
dm808 4y ago
"With regard to self-treatment, a harm reduction approach should be adopted. Low-risk psycholytic self-treatment protocols could be developed for future use in public health care systems." https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psycr.2022.100029 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psycr.2022.100029

40 points by failTide 4y ago

This bill (sb-519) goes to the Assembly Appropriations Committee tomorrow - I'm keeping my fingers crossed. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billStatusClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220SB519 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billStatusClient.xh...

lysergia 4y ago

I’m all for psychedelic therapy especially for those with a terminal illness and in a controlled environment with a sitter or an experienced psychonaut, but psychedelics are a double edged sword and need to be treated as such. So many going fully mentally ill after taking them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
quantified 4y ago
80% or 0.03%? How do you arrive at your estimate? What is your definition of mentally ill? I concur that it gets treated with respect. Societies have typically codified this respect as "ritual".
- lysergia 4y ago
  By mentally ill I mean it can cause extreme paranoia. Obviously not in all cases. It depends on set and setting. Imagine taking shrooms at a death metal concert and seeing demons for example. I’m all for the ritualistic set and setting, and eating well beforehand and maybe making a mixtape of good music to listen to whilst tripping. You don’t take these things going in blind.
  - quantified 4y ago
    That is really rare, especially for mushrooms and baby woodrose. We approve meds with far higher rates of serious side effects.

renewiltord 4y ago

Defacto legal in the Bay Area and it hasn't collapsed yet.

JasserInicide 4y ago
You been to SF recently?
- scelerat 4y ago
  You're likely observing the fallout from meth and opiod addiction, not psychedelics
- renewiltord 4y ago
  I live here and have lived in many other cities on other continents. It's honestly fine. The TL is in terrible shape as is the mid-Market area but most of the city is fine. And tbh, pre Zide Door and the Ayahuasca places (which I haven't been to) it was the same.

hirundo 4y ago

This bill would make lawful the possession, obtaining, giving away, or transportation of, specified quantities of psilocybin, psilocyn, dimethyltryptamine (DMT), ibogaine, mescaline, lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), (MDMA) for personal use or facilitated or supported use, as defined, by and with persons 21 years of age or older. It's great that this is an attempt at real decriminilization rather than sentencing reform or some form of deprioritization that doesn't change the criminal law. It would be nice if one of the facilitated uses is to give the legislators the option to experience some of these substances so that they can make better informed law. But probably not when in session.

IceMetalPunk 4y ago

I think the definition of "hurt" is relative. I've heard so many people describe their experiences on psychedelics as, to paraphrase, seeing more of reality, seeing the true nature of reality, expanding their minds, etc. In reality, they make you hallucinate, i.e. perceive things that are not real; the feelings of expansion are just part of the brain-meddling they cause. If people can separate their experiences from reality, then sure, I have no problem with them (just don't do them alone, in case you have a bad trip). But because so many people don't seem to be able to make that distinction, it's kind of a major problem.

quantified 4y ago
Watching TV makes you perceive things that are not real. Some religious sects ban reading of novels and such for reasons including this. Yet TV, novels, propaganda are somehow more OK? Oh, yes, and dreaming while asleep, which seems to have benefit for the basic function of our brains. And psychedelics give you the ability to re-perceive prior events in differenr ways. That is a super-important fact for therapeutic purposes. Personally, it just sounds likewe should accept that things which are enjoyable can be useful and vice versa.
- IceMetalPunk 4y ago
  I think you missed my point. Perceiving things that are not real isn't the problem. Perceiving things that are not real, and then thinking they are real, is the problem. If someone watches Moon Knight, that's fine (and also a great show, imho); if someone watches Moon Knight and now believes the Egyptian gods are real and giving people superpowers, that is NOT fine. And no, I don't think religion or propaganda are okay, either, for the same reason. "And psychedelics give you the ability to re-perceive prior events in different ways. That is a super-important fact for therapeutic purposes." It is... as long as the new perception aligns with reality. If it doesn't, then regardless of its potential therapeutic properties, it is harmful. "Personally, it just sounds like we should accept that things which are enjoyable can be useful and vice versa." Anything can be enjoyable to someone, and many things can be useful. It's about balancing the benefits against the harms and not ignoring either side.

throw_acct_919 4y ago

My spouse is cancer patient, and it helped her a lot to go through the times of intense stress with only microdosing liberty cap psilocybin mushrooms. It also helped myself as well, the only regret I have - why we haven't discovered it earlier.

ncmncm 4y ago

Psychedelics can be extremely helpful for most people. But don't ever give LSD to somebody fighting schizophrenia. It will not turn out well. But I have seen MDMA lead them to believe actual treatment is possible, and find it.

w10-1 4y ago

This is insane. The solution is to study the drugs and permit limited usage under medical care -- i.e., for the federal government to lower the schedule and fund research. California decrimininalizing would open the floodgates to abuse, of the weak by the powerful. Imagine companies with billions at stake selling high's to anyone who's troubled. The decriminalize-now push is not for medical reasons, but for an industry to make money off people's pain. None of the bill's "protections" -- "for personal use" "over 21" -- are effectively enforceable. Microdosing has been shown to be indistinguishable from placebo in its short term effects (i.e., it has no real effectiveness), but that doesn't mean full doses or regular use is safe. Unlike marijuana, there's a lot of evidence that brain and psychological damage from bad trips is permanent. Anecdotally, I'm old enough to know people who died, and others who never really came back, after using psychotropics. To me decriminalizing psychotropics is about as socially beneficial as dropping napalm on villages in Vietnam. Finally, this will definitely sink Democrats nationally. It's inexplicable to anyone outside hyper-liberal enclaves why you would permit big business to fry the brains of troubled people.

nus07 4y ago
This here ^. While it could have a lot of benefits for some folks, I have also seen the negative effects in the city of Portland, OR.Portland has a severe mental health crisis and not enough mental health workers or police expertise to deal with it . As a result walking through downtown and SE seems like an episode of the Walking Dead. This might be be beneficial to some health cases but it’s also going to attract a lot of unchecked drug use without enough support or studies to deal with the side effects .
- skavi 4y ago
  Are you sure you can tie those problems in Portland to abuse of psychedelic drugs? Given that connection, are you sure that decriminalization is what caused increasing abuse rates in Portland? IIRC, that was instituted in 2020, and the pandemic mucked up a few things since then.
failTide 4y ago
Sending people to jail for growing personal-use quantities has probably ruined many more lives than psychedelics. It's sickening.

jokoon 4y ago

Everybody want to replace SSRI with LSD and psilocybin. A business opportunity.

dm808 4y ago

"With regard to self-treatment, a harm reduction approach should be adopted. Low-risk psycholytic self-treatment protocols could be developed for future use in public health care systems." https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psycr.2022.100029 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.psycr.2022.100029