6 ms·

You still have no answer for the crypto on/off ramp issue.

ragnot 4y ago
I think the idea would be that in a scenario where crypto becomes a currency, there wouldn't need to be an off-ramp (at least immediately, think war/revolution). You would trade the crypto like "real" money.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  This requires price stability, which is at odds with the use of crypto as a speculative investment vehicle. People use fiat to transact because it is stable. It’s stable because a central bank is using tools available to bring about stability.
  - T0Bi 4y ago
    There are decentralized stable coins such as Dai that survived massive crashes/volatility in the past and still remained on peg. Crypto ≠ Bitcoin.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Unless you have a nation state backing the currency, its speculative assets all the way down.
  - ragnot 4y ago
    It's a hedge. Like anything other hedge it's not bulletproof. I'm blessed to live in a country that has sound monetary policy (you do too probably). But there are millions (if not billions) of people who don't. Crypto offers a way to avoid capital controls when governments fail. It's not the crypto itself, its just the most convenient way. See: https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beirut/ https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beir...
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Sort of agree. Find ways to issue them digital wallets with fiat currency support. Venezuelans using Zelle to transact in dollars comes to mind. It’s a financial inclusion and digital identity story, high level. But if you’re violating nation state laws (AML/KYC/money laundering/capital controls), you’re not likely to avoid repercussions for that, state monopoly on force and all that jazz. https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2020/06/16/venezuela-is-a-testing-ground-for-digital-dollarization-and-zelle-doesnt-like-it/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2020/06/16/venezuela-is-a-t...
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  There's another likely scenario (at least in my mind) where Bitcoin is a global reserve "currency" like gold used to be. In this instance, the on/off ramps that exist already would still likely be the ones around. That is to say, completely centralized instiutions that interface with completely centralized fiat currencies. Bitcoin isn't going to replace countries, countries will likely have fiat stablecoins which is exactly where our increasingly cashless societies are headed towards. tldr; either the crypto itself is traded like real money, or a l2 or even centralized unconnected layer is - either way on/off ramps that currently exist (p2p and centralized) continue to exist and thrive.
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  You still need an on-ramp inside of the authoritarian country you want to depart
game-of-throws 4y ago
If someone is trying to escape their local currency, they won't want an on/off ramp. In foreign nations with a large underground USD economy, people skip the local currency and trade/spend USD directly. The same could happen with BTC. In fact in the most extreme cases this transformation is already happening: https://www.reuters.com/technology/venezuelas-economy-regresses-crypto-fills-gaps-2021-06-22/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/venezuelas-economy-regres... > But a major part of Venezuela's crypto operations involves businesses swapping out of bolivars to beat inflation, said economist and finance expert Aaron Olmos. > "Nobody is going to tell you 'every night when we do the books, we convert bolivars into bitcoin,' but yes, this is happening."
- naet 4y ago
  I've used crypto for regular monetary transactions (selling art) and it's a huge pain in the ass compared to using actual currency. The idea that people are going to do day-to-day purchases with bitcoin is pure fantasy, it would be a huge step back from what most people are used to. You pay fees for every single transaction: chain storage, gas, if you want to deposit or withdraw or exchange to another currency, etc; it's slow to go through and at peak times you get gassed out and it doesn't go through at all. The value fluctuates wildly at all times of day, so your transaction might lose a significant percent of value before you've had a chance to even access it let alone trade it for a more stable currency or asset. Oh, and you have zero safety net for if something is entered wrong, a key is lost, if you end up not receiving the item you purchased, you're outta luck and there's no bank or credit card agency you can petition for a chargeback. Plus you lose ALL your money with no recourse if you can't keep track of a non human memorizable secret key, or if it gets in any way intercepted or stolen from your computer, or if you accept the wrong transaction...
- majewsky 4y ago
  How can everyone convert bolivars into bitcoin? That would imply that equal amounts of bitcoin are being sold by someone in exchange for bolivar. Who is that and why do they think it's a good deal?
  - imtringued 4y ago
EGreg 4y ago
We do. It's called people accepting cryptocurrencies in exchange for goods and services. Here is the roadmap: https://intercoin.org/communities.pdf https://intercoin.org/communities.pdf
- xadhominemx 4y ago
  Ok then you tie an identity to a Bitcoin address and you have the same exact problem
  - EGreg 4y ago
    Who’s talking about Bitcoin ? ;-)

I think the idea would be that in a scenario where crypto becomes a currency, there wouldn't need to be an off-ramp (at least immediately, think war/revolution). You would trade the crypto like "real" money.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
This requires price stability, which is at odds with the use of crypto as a speculative investment vehicle. People use fiat to transact because it is stable. It’s stable because a central bank is using tools available to bring about stability.
- T0Bi 4y ago
  There are decentralized stable coins such as Dai that survived massive crashes/volatility in the past and still remained on peg. Crypto ≠ Bitcoin.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Unless you have a nation state backing the currency, its speculative assets all the way down.
- ragnot 4y ago
  It's a hedge. Like anything other hedge it's not bulletproof. I'm blessed to live in a country that has sound monetary policy (you do too probably). But there are millions (if not billions) of people who don't. Crypto offers a way to avoid capital controls when governments fail. It's not the crypto itself, its just the most convenient way. See: https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beirut/ https://restofworld.org/2021/the-cryptocurrency-dons-of-beir...
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Sort of agree. Find ways to issue them digital wallets with fiat currency support. Venezuelans using Zelle to transact in dollars comes to mind. It’s a financial inclusion and digital identity story, high level. But if you’re violating nation state laws (AML/KYC/money laundering/capital controls), you’re not likely to avoid repercussions for that, state monopoly on force and all that jazz. https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2020/06/16/venezuela-is-a-testing-ground-for-digital-dollarization-and-zelle-doesnt-like-it/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2020/06/16/venezuela-is-a-t...
bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
There's another likely scenario (at least in my mind) where Bitcoin is a global reserve "currency" like gold used to be. In this instance, the on/off ramps that exist already would still likely be the ones around. That is to say, completely centralized instiutions that interface with completely centralized fiat currencies. Bitcoin isn't going to replace countries, countries will likely have fiat stablecoins which is exactly where our increasingly cashless societies are headed towards. tldr; either the crypto itself is traded like real money, or a l2 or even centralized unconnected layer is - either way on/off ramps that currently exist (p2p and centralized) continue to exist and thrive.
xadhominemx 4y ago
You still need an on-ramp inside of the authoritarian country you want to depart

game-of-throws 4y ago

If someone is trying to escape their local currency, they won't want an on/off ramp. In foreign nations with a large underground USD economy, people skip the local currency and trade/spend USD directly. The same could happen with BTC. In fact in the most extreme cases this transformation is already happening: https://www.reuters.com/technology/venezuelas-economy-regresses-crypto-fills-gaps-2021-06-22/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/venezuelas-economy-regres... > But a major part of Venezuela's crypto operations involves businesses swapping out of bolivars to beat inflation, said economist and finance expert Aaron Olmos. > "Nobody is going to tell you 'every night when we do the books, we convert bolivars into bitcoin,' but yes, this is happening."

naet 4y ago
I've used crypto for regular monetary transactions (selling art) and it's a huge pain in the ass compared to using actual currency. The idea that people are going to do day-to-day purchases with bitcoin is pure fantasy, it would be a huge step back from what most people are used to. You pay fees for every single transaction: chain storage, gas, if you want to deposit or withdraw or exchange to another currency, etc; it's slow to go through and at peak times you get gassed out and it doesn't go through at all. The value fluctuates wildly at all times of day, so your transaction might lose a significant percent of value before you've had a chance to even access it let alone trade it for a more stable currency or asset. Oh, and you have zero safety net for if something is entered wrong, a key is lost, if you end up not receiving the item you purchased, you're outta luck and there's no bank or credit card agency you can petition for a chargeback. Plus you lose ALL your money with no recourse if you can't keep track of a non human memorizable secret key, or if it gets in any way intercepted or stolen from your computer, or if you accept the wrong transaction...
majewsky 4y ago
How can everyone convert bolivars into bitcoin? That would imply that equal amounts of bitcoin are being sold by someone in exchange for bolivar. Who is that and why do they think it's a good deal?
- imtringued 4y ago

EGreg 4y ago

We do. It's called people accepting cryptocurrencies in exchange for goods and services. Here is the roadmap: https://intercoin.org/communities.pdf https://intercoin.org/communities.pdf

xadhominemx 4y ago
Ok then you tie an identity to a Bitcoin address and you have the same exact problem
- EGreg 4y ago
  Who’s talking about Bitcoin ? ;-)