6 ms·

This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, it's not a good goal

by eloff 4y ago

This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, it's not a good goal. People are different and they're going to have different outcomes, even if only considering chance. But they should have the same opportunities regardless of race, gender, etc. Making policy to address this is tackling the root of the problem instead of the symptoms.

rileymat2 4y ago
To go with your analogy, when I am sick, I want both the root of the problem dealt with along with the symptoms. I don’t see why you would not attack things from both angles.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > when I am sick, I want both the root of the problem dealt with along with the symptoms Society isn't conscious and people aren't microbes. The analogy of a cytokine storm taking out healthy cells to drive off infection becomes grim when the "healthy cells" are people.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > Society isn't conscious and people aren't microbes. Maybe, maybe not :P http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/USAconscious-140721.htm http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/USAconsci...
- eloff 4y ago
  To understand that, you really have to go beyond the analogy. I think trying to address differences in outcome by discrimination is morally dubious and potentially could backfire and make things worse.
api 4y ago
I largely agree, but here's an attempt at a "steel man" of the opposing point of view: Unjust discrimination is complex, often subconscious, and deeply rooted in institutional structures and culture. It's too complex and elusive to address directly beyond the obvious removal of explicit regulations (desegregation) and finger wagging. Those things have already been done and yet extreme inequalities persist, so addressing outcome is the only way people can think of to go any deeper.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  But what’s missing from your steelman is why returning to racial discrimination will solve the problems of past racial discrimination — rather than making them worse, by teaching a whole new generation to be racists.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    Forget making it worse as the primary concern. I am concerned about fascism emerging as a backlash to anti-White discrimination. People are pissed that their society has turned against them and will abandon democracy to fix the situation.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - teddyh 4y ago
      But people love it when the other side gets “pissed”, even if it’s mostly in their imagination. Social media is almost full of schadenfreude, with no system in place to dampen it. On the contrary, any attempts at understanding the other side is called “defending them” or “weakness”.
- btilly 4y ago
  BS. It starts at kindergarten and before. Minority children should enter schools where they have a chance, with the resources to take advantage of that chance. But we don't. And here in California, blacks graduating high school on average only read as well as 8th grade blacks. Attempting to create equality of outcome after that is a lost cause. I can think of a dozen policies that would be more effective at helping blacks than discriminating against Asians at elite universities. My favorite example is that research says that homework provides little net benefit on average, but specifically hurts children in disadvantaged families where parents themselves lack the skills to help their children understand the material. Therefore dramatically reducing homework will help blacks. (And will also make families with teenagers much less stressful places.)
hintymad 4y ago
> This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, For this statement alone the left can label you as far right. In the past 10 years or so, I repeatedly hear a consistent message: we fight for equal outcome. And of course, identity is a critical factor, if not the only factor, in this fight. I'm actually very curious how the American elites reach this conclusion, and how they reconcile the bloody history of people pursuing equal outcome (or in the name of it).
- upsidesinclude 4y ago
  It's just reconcile. Reconciliate is a post construction of 'reconciliation'
  - hintymad 4y ago
    thanks! updated.
- slashdev 4y ago
  I always thought of myself as quite left of center. Now I find myself on the right, and I don't understand if I became more conservative as I got older, or if the center moved past me to the left.
  - btilly 4y ago
    You are far from alone. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144 is relatable for a lot of people.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    The center has not moved as much as the willingness of journalists and news organizations to ignore their duties to provide a truthful and unbiased service to their readers and constituents. Allowing their built-in left-leaning biases to affect their mission has given the impression that the population has shifted left. The next few elections will possibly shake some of this out. I just hope it doesn’t swing too far the other way.

by eloff 4y ago

rileymat2 4y ago

To go with your analogy, when I am sick, I want both the root of the problem dealt with along with the symptoms. I don’t see why you would not attack things from both angles.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> when I am sick, I want both the root of the problem dealt with along with the symptoms Society isn't conscious and people aren't microbes. The analogy of a cytokine storm taking out healthy cells to drive off infection becomes grim when the "healthy cells" are people.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > Society isn't conscious and people aren't microbes. Maybe, maybe not :P http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/USAconscious-140721.htm http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/USAconsci...
eloff 4y ago
To understand that, you really have to go beyond the analogy. I think trying to address differences in outcome by discrimination is morally dubious and potentially could backfire and make things worse.

api 4y ago

I largely agree, but here's an attempt at a "steel man" of the opposing point of view: Unjust discrimination is complex, often subconscious, and deeply rooted in institutional structures and culture. It's too complex and elusive to address directly beyond the obvious removal of explicit regulations (desegregation) and finger wagging. Those things have already been done and yet extreme inequalities persist, so addressing outcome is the only way people can think of to go any deeper.

zmgsabst 4y ago
But what’s missing from your steelman is why returning to racial discrimination will solve the problems of past racial discrimination — rather than making them worse, by teaching a whole new generation to be racists.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Forget making it worse as the primary concern. I am concerned about fascism emerging as a backlash to anti-White discrimination. People are pissed that their society has turned against them and will abandon democracy to fix the situation.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - teddyh 4y ago
    But people love it when the other side gets “pissed”, even if it’s mostly in their imagination. Social media is almost full of schadenfreude, with no system in place to dampen it. On the contrary, any attempts at understanding the other side is called “defending them” or “weakness”.
btilly 4y ago
BS. It starts at kindergarten and before. Minority children should enter schools where they have a chance, with the resources to take advantage of that chance. But we don't. And here in California, blacks graduating high school on average only read as well as 8th grade blacks. Attempting to create equality of outcome after that is a lost cause. I can think of a dozen policies that would be more effective at helping blacks than discriminating against Asians at elite universities. My favorite example is that research says that homework provides little net benefit on average, but specifically hurts children in disadvantaged families where parents themselves lack the skills to help their children understand the material. Therefore dramatically reducing homework will help blacks. (And will also make families with teenagers much less stressful places.)

hintymad 4y ago

> This is the danger of focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. In my opinion, the former is not possible anyway, For this statement alone the left can label you as far right. In the past 10 years or so, I repeatedly hear a consistent message: we fight for equal outcome. And of course, identity is a critical factor, if not the only factor, in this fight. I'm actually very curious how the American elites reach this conclusion, and how they reconcile the bloody history of people pursuing equal outcome (or in the name of it).

upsidesinclude 4y ago
It's just reconcile. Reconciliate is a post construction of 'reconciliation'
- hintymad 4y ago
  thanks! updated.
slashdev 4y ago
I always thought of myself as quite left of center. Now I find myself on the right, and I don't understand if I became more conservative as I got older, or if the center moved past me to the left.
- btilly 4y ago
  You are far from alone. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144 is relatable for a lot of people.
- cudgy 4y ago
  The center has not moved as much as the willingness of journalists and news organizations to ignore their duties to provide a truthful and unbiased service to their readers and constituents. Allowing their built-in left-leaning biases to affect their mission has given the impression that the population has shifted left. The next few elections will possibly shake some of this out. I just hope it doesn’t swing too far the other way.