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It really makes me wonder what the common experience is for others not just in tech but Corporate America in general. I myself have run into anti-white and ant

It really makes me wonder what the common experience is for others not just in tech but Corporate America in general. I myself have run into anti-white and anti-male phenomena, unconscious bias pseudoscience training, diversity pledges, and so on, as have now others in my peer group. Dilbert's commentary has so far been entirely appropriate based on my experience, hence it's puzzling to me when people think there's something particularly conservative about being concerned or critical about these societal changes. Are said changes overblown? Do these people merely think that employees or companies taking positions on "whiteness" see it as totally normal and as something no one would have an issue with? It's just odd to me.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
oneoff786 4y ago
As a consultant who sees a lot of different big company cultures, and even done some work specifically on diversity stuff: They’re overblown. I’ve yet to see anything noteworthy. I’m convinced the stupid stuff is more or less confined to California. I’m sure people will be eager to show their anecdotes otherwise but I’m not really interested in that.
- gruez 4y ago
  >I’ve yet to see anything noteworthy. I’m convinced the stupid stuff is more or less confined to California That's cold comfort to people living in california, like scott adams.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Scott Adams has lost his marbles. He’s got bigger problems. But sure, I think leaving California is a good idea for many people.
    - the_doctah 4y ago
      - oneoff786 4y ago
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    The man hasn't worked a corporate job since the 90s by his own account. His perception of the current corporate culture seems to be based on media reports and grievance anecdotes. It is VERY clear that he spends most of his time at home making content. This isn't a dig, this is an observation about the amount of time he spends live-streaming from his home.
    - kcplate 4y ago
      > His perception of the current corporate culture seems to be based on media reports and grievance anecdotes. There is zero doubt in my mind that he has a full inbox of anecdotes every day.
- good8675309 4y ago
  As a consultant you wouldn't see it. As an employee experiencing the day to day it usually comes in sporadic waves from HR depending on whatever cause they are pushing. I'm speaking from experience working for companies on the East coast, Midwest, and West coast.
- spamizbad 4y ago
  Not a consultant but my experience mirrors yours. Among my friends, several of whom work typical corporate jobs, nobody has experienced anything beyond basic diversity training that would be tame by the standards of the 90s. The only real new thing is just respecting people's pronouns but that strikes me as basic decency and professional conduct.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    Another anecdote: I have seem women be more confident in asking about leadership, internal promotions, and putting management pressure on ensuring that they are represented in leadership. Once a startup I worked at got to a certain size where we had 5+ teams or 2+ managers-of-managers, women started to ask why there are 0 women leads. And honestly when you get to multiple teams and multiple levels of management thats probably a pretty solid question to at least ask, even if the answer is a totally normal "it just hasn't worked out that way for now".
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- scifibestfi 4y ago
  Here's an active job opening from a University in Canada, seeking a Research Chair in Experimental Physics. This stuff is everywhere. Even in science. "Candidates must be from one or more of the following equity-seeking groups to apply: women, persons with disabilities, Indigenous peoples, and racialized groups" https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317 https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Why don't they target income? Or wealth. Would just seem fair that candidate must have less than median wage or net wealth in past let's say 3 years.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Socioeconomic diversity is almost certainly the best way to improve societal outcomes. But it’s hard to track and is less outwardly visible.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Ok? Some diversity hiring efforts are hardly an outrage.
sofixa 4y ago
> Dilbert's commentary has so far been entirely appropriate based on my experience, hence it's puzzling to me when people think there's something particularly conservative about being concerned or critical about these societal changes Isn't it pretty much by definition (social) conservative? > Conservatism is a cultural, social, and political philosophy that seeks to promote and to preserve traditional social institutions and practices > In political science, a reactionary or a reactionist is a person who holds political views that favour a return to the status quo ante, the previous political state of society, which that person believes possessed positive characteristics absent from contemporary society > Progressivism is a way of thinking that holds that it is possible through political action for human societies to improve over time. As a political movement, progressivism purports to advance the human condition through social reform based on advancements in science, technology, economic development and social organization You might disagree with the changes being made, but (social) progressives believe they're making them for the betterment of humans. (Social) conservatives want to stop them, (social) reactionaries want to go back to "the good old times" where the woman kept the house etc. It's pretty much textbook definitions.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  Under which definition does the belief that you should be able to criticize and push back against changes you believe will be detrimental but still believe that other changes will improve human societies over time belong?
- AinderS 4y ago
  You can do anything if you control the definitions: Ethno-nationalists want to progress into a world where conflict is avoided by clear borders between naturally antagonistic groups, while globalists want to revert to a time before clear nations and borders, to plunge the world into perpetual ethnic conflict, such as what happened in India and Africa after colonialists drew borders without regard for which groups lived where. Anti-immigrationists want to progress to strict enforcement of the US border, while pro-immigrationists want to maintain the status quo of loose enforcement and origin-agnostic immigration policy that has been in place since 1965. Ukraine wants to maintain the nationalist, separatist status quo of an independent country, while Russia wants to progress towards a larger, unified, multicultural whole. See? Easy.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
good8675309 4y ago
We have a cultural problem in the West that is underpinning all of this. The emperor has no clothes and the sane rational ones are too afraid to talk about it because of the costs.
- MrMan 4y ago
  oh no the portentious "other problem" everyone is too scared to address
  - blueflow 4y ago
    I don't know what you are referring to.
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  > We have a cultural problem in the West that is underpinning all of this. And what is that, pray tell?
gingerrr 4y ago
....being worried about societal change is definitionally conservatism, did you mean something else by that?
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  How is being worried about society objectively changing for the worst - like excluding you for your gender or the color of your skin - conservatism? Wanting to be truly equal is progressive.
  - gingerrr 4y ago
    Because the definition of the word conservatism is "commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change". If you're worried about society changing, there is no definition of the word "progressive" you fulfill unless it's your tax bracket. Words have meaning, even in the mouths of sophists.
    - jjoonathan 4y ago
      So it was conservative to worry about the rise of Trump and the Alt Right? It's conservative to wish Roe had remained on the books? > Words have meaning, even in the mouths of sophists. Indeed.
      - gingerrr 4y ago
        > So it was conservative to worry about the rise of Trump and the Alt Right? No, because as we saw in the 1930 and 40s this strain of virulent fascism is not new, but sadly quite traditional - this was the conservatism bubbling through in reaction to modern liberalism. > It's conservative to wish Roe had remained on the books? If Roe had been an office worker they wouldn't have even qualified for early retirement, that's how briefly those rights existed - then reactionary conservatism struck to return us to the good old days. If to make a "point" about history you have to limit your discussion to things that changed only in the last 30-50 years, you might have an alternate agenda.
fabian2k 4y ago
Plain old racism/xenophobia and sexism was very common and still is to some extent, though it is not as socially acceptable as it used to be. So I find it odd to only consider anti-white bias you encountered while ignoring any discrimination in the other direction. I strongly doubt it does not exist. There is certainly stuff under the diversity banner, especially when done primarily with PR/image concerns that reasonable people can object to. But there are also real issues with discrimination, and efforts to address that are a good idea in my opinion.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  - biohacker85 4y ago
    I've talked with enough "woke" activists to know that they are not oblivious to this glaring contradiction. While most don't say it outright, since whites are perceived to be privileged and the main offenders of racism, racism against them is to be accepted during this "transition" period to equality.
  - NDizzle 4y ago
    "In other words, people who are racist against white people just have an anti-white bias. People that are racist against black people are actual racists." This is such an insane statement I don't even know how to reply on a site like HN. Do you personally believe this, or are you just pasting what the (recently modified, I'm sure) current definition of "racism" is?
- ravenstine 4y ago
  To highlight an inconsistency in a system isn't ignoring the system's other problems. If anything, it compliments a broader perspective rather than a narrow one. I don't think a lot of people here are suggesting that there aren't other forms of racism and sexism taking place.
rayiner 4y ago
Calling these concerns “conservative” is a brilliant tactical play by progressives to use Trump-era polarization as a weapon against moderate liberals. Because nobody left of center wants to be associated with Trump, moderates will fold in the face of such criticism instead of push back.
jrockway 4y ago
I've taken unconscious bias training. I thought it was very good. I remember catching myself in some meeting talking over a quiet woman who had probably been wanting to talk for quite a while. My brain remembered the training, I shut up, and let her participate in the meeting as an equal. Without the training, I would probably be silently making people miserable. Now I don't do that, as much. You use the word "pseudoscience" to describe the training, so it's unlikely that you're receptive to this anecdote, but just wanted to share my perspective. Being cognizant of your flaws is the first step in fixing them. I really don't think some training along the lines of "hey, you might be doing this without noticing" is the worst thing in the world. At worst, you waste 45 minutes you were probably going to spend arguing with people on HN. At best, you might make yourself more enjoyable to work with. To me, it's worth the gamble!
- a_shovel 4y ago
  "Unconscious bias" is a really strange thing to call pseudoscience. What would it even mean for unconscious bias to be pseudoscience? That believing oneself to be unbiased is absolute proof of being unbiased?
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    There's unconscious bias, which is real (that really is a job of the human brain, actually), and then there's unconscious bias testing and training. Like I mentioned elsewhere, I've got ~ 9 minutes until an interview I'll have to attend for multiple hours so I can't adequately respond, but my perspective on unconscious bias is one of skepticism that said bias can be reliably tested for and whether the training is free of negative side effects.
  - throwaway4aday 4y ago
    What would it even mean for a human to be completely unbiased? We're big bags of heuristics with a thin skin of pseudo-rationality on top. We can remind ourselves to check our reasoning and maybe we'll make a habit of it but we can't unpick a lifetime of happenstance learning mixed with eons of evolved neural circuitry. We'd be better off just reminding everyone to try to be kind, have empathy and make a point of using good manners.
octonion 4y ago
Rand4ObvReasons 4y ago
I work at FANG. My manager had director level approval to hold out job openings to women only. They same manager complained that they were sick of “men and Asian women” making up the team. They asked me for resumes but said they only wanted non-male, non-white or LGBTQ resumes. They were recognized as a diversity champion in the company.
- leephillips 4y ago
  If this is in the U.S., surely this is a violation of federal law. And if you complied you are an accomplice. I would document everything and report it to the feds promptly, to cover your ass.
  - Rand4ObvReasons 4y ago
    I feared retaliation, but I documented at least part of it. When I went to report it seems the statute of limitations expired. And yes, this is USA.
    - leephillips 4y ago
      You acted wisely. I’m glad the statute of limitations expired without any consequesnces.
leephillips 4y ago
I guess the situation is probably not “overblown” in general. Here is a job advertisement for the University of Guelph in Ontario that was posted a couple of days ago. It’s for a position in experimental physics. It explicitly says that no white people need apply: https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317 https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317 Perhaps this is legal in Canada; surely not in the U.S.?
cjbgkagh 4y ago
Two projects I was trying to start at a FANG company were cancelled during inception because they were unlikely to meet diversity quotas. Not enough women, hispanics and african americans. My sub-field is so dominated by men that it would have been impossible to meet the quota without drastically lowering standards to the point the project wouldn't be viable anyway. It was a no-win situation and one of the main reasons I had to leave the FANG company and start my own small company. Fortunately for me my competition are multi-nationals and they all went through the same diversity quota overhaul. I think their management just wanted more compliant cheaper devs. Big companies have a lot of inertia but they got so inefficient that they're now taking forever to come out with new tech. I'm slowly stealing their customers.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

oneoff786 4y ago

As a consultant who sees a lot of different big company cultures, and even done some work specifically on diversity stuff: They’re overblown. I’ve yet to see anything noteworthy. I’m convinced the stupid stuff is more or less confined to California. I’m sure people will be eager to show their anecdotes otherwise but I’m not really interested in that.

gruez 4y ago
>I’ve yet to see anything noteworthy. I’m convinced the stupid stuff is more or less confined to California That's cold comfort to people living in california, like scott adams.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Scott Adams has lost his marbles. He’s got bigger problems. But sure, I think leaving California is a good idea for many people.
  - the_doctah 4y ago
    - oneoff786 4y ago
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  The man hasn't worked a corporate job since the 90s by his own account. His perception of the current corporate culture seems to be based on media reports and grievance anecdotes. It is VERY clear that he spends most of his time at home making content. This isn't a dig, this is an observation about the amount of time he spends live-streaming from his home.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    > His perception of the current corporate culture seems to be based on media reports and grievance anecdotes. There is zero doubt in my mind that he has a full inbox of anecdotes every day.
good8675309 4y ago
As a consultant you wouldn't see it. As an employee experiencing the day to day it usually comes in sporadic waves from HR depending on whatever cause they are pushing. I'm speaking from experience working for companies on the East coast, Midwest, and West coast.
spamizbad 4y ago
Not a consultant but my experience mirrors yours. Among my friends, several of whom work typical corporate jobs, nobody has experienced anything beyond basic diversity training that would be tame by the standards of the 90s. The only real new thing is just respecting people's pronouns but that strikes me as basic decency and professional conduct.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  Another anecdote: I have seem women be more confident in asking about leadership, internal promotions, and putting management pressure on ensuring that they are represented in leadership. Once a startup I worked at got to a certain size where we had 5+ teams or 2+ managers-of-managers, women started to ask why there are 0 women leads. And honestly when you get to multiple teams and multiple levels of management thats probably a pretty solid question to at least ask, even if the answer is a totally normal "it just hasn't worked out that way for now".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
scifibestfi 4y ago
Here's an active job opening from a University in Canada, seeking a Research Chair in Experimental Physics. This stuff is everywhere. Even in science. "Candidates must be from one or more of the following equity-seeking groups to apply: women, persons with disabilities, Indigenous peoples, and racialized groups" https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317 https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Why don't they target income? Or wealth. Would just seem fair that candidate must have less than median wage or net wealth in past let's say 3 years.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Socioeconomic diversity is almost certainly the best way to improve societal outcomes. But it’s hard to track and is less outwardly visible.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Ok? Some diversity hiring efforts are hardly an outrage.

sofixa 4y ago

> Dilbert's commentary has so far been entirely appropriate based on my experience, hence it's puzzling to me when people think there's something particularly conservative about being concerned or critical about these societal changes Isn't it pretty much by definition (social) conservative? > Conservatism is a cultural, social, and political philosophy that seeks to promote and to preserve traditional social institutions and practices > In political science, a reactionary or a reactionist is a person who holds political views that favour a return to the status quo ante, the previous political state of society, which that person believes possessed positive characteristics absent from contemporary society > Progressivism is a way of thinking that holds that it is possible through political action for human societies to improve over time. As a political movement, progressivism purports to advance the human condition through social reform based on advancements in science, technology, economic development and social organization You might disagree with the changes being made, but (social) progressives believe they're making them for the betterment of humans. (Social) conservatives want to stop them, (social) reactionaries want to go back to "the good old times" where the woman kept the house etc. It's pretty much textbook definitions.

throwaway4aday 4y ago
Under which definition does the belief that you should be able to criticize and push back against changes you believe will be detrimental but still believe that other changes will improve human societies over time belong?
AinderS 4y ago
You can do anything if you control the definitions: Ethno-nationalists want to progress into a world where conflict is avoided by clear borders between naturally antagonistic groups, while globalists want to revert to a time before clear nations and borders, to plunge the world into perpetual ethnic conflict, such as what happened in India and Africa after colonialists drew borders without regard for which groups lived where. Anti-immigrationists want to progress to strict enforcement of the US border, while pro-immigrationists want to maintain the status quo of loose enforcement and origin-agnostic immigration policy that has been in place since 1965. Ukraine wants to maintain the nationalist, separatist status quo of an independent country, while Russia wants to progress towards a larger, unified, multicultural whole. See? Easy.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

good8675309 4y ago

We have a cultural problem in the West that is underpinning all of this. The emperor has no clothes and the sane rational ones are too afraid to talk about it because of the costs.

MrMan 4y ago
oh no the portentious "other problem" everyone is too scared to address
- blueflow 4y ago
  I don't know what you are referring to.
fknorangesite 4y ago
> We have a cultural problem in the West that is underpinning all of this. And what is that, pray tell?

gingerrr 4y ago

....being worried about societal change is definitionally conservatism, did you mean something else by that?

selfmodruntime 4y ago
How is being worried about society objectively changing for the worst - like excluding you for your gender or the color of your skin - conservatism? Wanting to be truly equal is progressive.
- gingerrr 4y ago
  Because the definition of the word conservatism is "commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change". If you're worried about society changing, there is no definition of the word "progressive" you fulfill unless it's your tax bracket. Words have meaning, even in the mouths of sophists.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    So it was conservative to worry about the rise of Trump and the Alt Right? It's conservative to wish Roe had remained on the books? > Words have meaning, even in the mouths of sophists. Indeed.
    - gingerrr 4y ago
      > So it was conservative to worry about the rise of Trump and the Alt Right? No, because as we saw in the 1930 and 40s this strain of virulent fascism is not new, but sadly quite traditional - this was the conservatism bubbling through in reaction to modern liberalism. > It's conservative to wish Roe had remained on the books? If Roe had been an office worker they wouldn't have even qualified for early retirement, that's how briefly those rights existed - then reactionary conservatism struck to return us to the good old days. If to make a "point" about history you have to limit your discussion to things that changed only in the last 30-50 years, you might have an alternate agenda.

fabian2k 4y ago

Plain old racism/xenophobia and sexism was very common and still is to some extent, though it is not as socially acceptable as it used to be. So I find it odd to only consider anti-white bias you encountered while ignoring any discrimination in the other direction. I strongly doubt it does not exist. There is certainly stuff under the diversity banner, especially when done primarily with PR/image concerns that reasonable people can object to. But there are also real issues with discrimination, and efforts to address that are a good idea in my opinion.

_gabe_ 4y ago
- biohacker85 4y ago
  I've talked with enough "woke" activists to know that they are not oblivious to this glaring contradiction. While most don't say it outright, since whites are perceived to be privileged and the main offenders of racism, racism against them is to be accepted during this "transition" period to equality.
- NDizzle 4y ago
  "In other words, people who are racist against white people just have an anti-white bias. People that are racist against black people are actual racists." This is such an insane statement I don't even know how to reply on a site like HN. Do you personally believe this, or are you just pasting what the (recently modified, I'm sure) current definition of "racism" is?
ravenstine 4y ago
To highlight an inconsistency in a system isn't ignoring the system's other problems. If anything, it compliments a broader perspective rather than a narrow one. I don't think a lot of people here are suggesting that there aren't other forms of racism and sexism taking place.

rayiner 4y ago

Calling these concerns “conservative” is a brilliant tactical play by progressives to use Trump-era polarization as a weapon against moderate liberals. Because nobody left of center wants to be associated with Trump, moderates will fold in the face of such criticism instead of push back.

jrockway 4y ago

I've taken unconscious bias training. I thought it was very good. I remember catching myself in some meeting talking over a quiet woman who had probably been wanting to talk for quite a while. My brain remembered the training, I shut up, and let her participate in the meeting as an equal. Without the training, I would probably be silently making people miserable. Now I don't do that, as much. You use the word "pseudoscience" to describe the training, so it's unlikely that you're receptive to this anecdote, but just wanted to share my perspective. Being cognizant of your flaws is the first step in fixing them. I really don't think some training along the lines of "hey, you might be doing this without noticing" is the worst thing in the world. At worst, you waste 45 minutes you were probably going to spend arguing with people on HN. At best, you might make yourself more enjoyable to work with. To me, it's worth the gamble!

a_shovel 4y ago
"Unconscious bias" is a really strange thing to call pseudoscience. What would it even mean for unconscious bias to be pseudoscience? That believing oneself to be unbiased is absolute proof of being unbiased?
- ravenstine 4y ago
  There's unconscious bias, which is real (that really is a job of the human brain, actually), and then there's unconscious bias testing and training. Like I mentioned elsewhere, I've got ~ 9 minutes until an interview I'll have to attend for multiple hours so I can't adequately respond, but my perspective on unconscious bias is one of skepticism that said bias can be reliably tested for and whether the training is free of negative side effects.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  What would it even mean for a human to be completely unbiased? We're big bags of heuristics with a thin skin of pseudo-rationality on top. We can remind ourselves to check our reasoning and maybe we'll make a habit of it but we can't unpick a lifetime of happenstance learning mixed with eons of evolved neural circuitry. We'd be better off just reminding everyone to try to be kind, have empathy and make a point of using good manners.

octonion 4y ago

Rand4ObvReasons 4y ago

I work at FANG. My manager had director level approval to hold out job openings to women only. They same manager complained that they were sick of “men and Asian women” making up the team. They asked me for resumes but said they only wanted non-male, non-white or LGBTQ resumes. They were recognized as a diversity champion in the company.

leephillips 4y ago
If this is in the U.S., surely this is a violation of federal law. And if you complied you are an accomplice. I would document everything and report it to the feds promptly, to cover your ass.
- Rand4ObvReasons 4y ago
  I feared retaliation, but I documented at least part of it. When I went to report it seems the statute of limitations expired. And yes, this is USA.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    You acted wisely. I’m glad the statute of limitations expired without any consequesnces.

leephillips 4y ago

I guess the situation is probably not “overblown” in general. Here is a job advertisement for the University of Guelph in Ontario that was posted a couple of days ago. It’s for a position in experimental physics. It explicitly says that no white people need apply: https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317 https://www.universityaffairs.ca/search-job/?job_id=58317 Perhaps this is legal in Canada; surely not in the U.S.?

cjbgkagh 4y ago

Two projects I was trying to start at a FANG company were cancelled during inception because they were unlikely to meet diversity quotas. Not enough women, hispanics and african americans. My sub-field is so dominated by men that it would have been impossible to meet the quota without drastically lowering standards to the point the project wouldn't be viable anyway. It was a no-win situation and one of the main reasons I had to leave the FANG company and start my own small company. Fortunately for me my competition are multi-nationals and they all went through the same diversity quota overhaul. I think their management just wanted more compliant cheaper devs. Big companies have a lot of inertia but they got so inefficient that they're now taking forever to come out with new tech. I'm slowly stealing their customers.