6 ms·

Freeze? Both me and my friend from a previous project were recently approached by G's recruiters in Poland. I wasn't pursuing new roles at the time, but my fri

by Tade0 4y ago

Freeze? Both me and my friend from a previous project were recently approached by G's recruiters in Poland. I wasn't pursuing new roles at the time, but my friend figured he'd try and found that the recruiter's calendar was filled up to the brim. He asked what's going on and she replied that she has KPI to fulfill and this is the result. He followed up with a question about compensation and got a number which was... very close to the current market rate. This is a major shift in policy comparing to just three years ago and with Poland being a popular outsourcing destination I suspect that this is what's happening, especially that due to the Russian invasion there's additional talent from Ukraine in Warsaw.

pzduniak 4y ago
Market rates? Oof, I thought they were still more competitive. They flat out refused to discuss comp with me before passing the interviews. Fascinating that now VC-funded companies are suddenly getting more and more competitive by not discriminating by region. Everyone tries to beat the market and they're more flexible regarding the employment contract, so eg. you can be self-employed and save 20% of your income from taxes.
__exit__ 4y ago
When you say the compensation was very close to the current market rate, I assume you mean the market rate in Poland, correct? No fancy Silicon Valley salaries for devs in Poland, that is.
- woadwarrior01 4y ago
  I left G in Ireland about 4 months ago for a fully remote position at a startup. Up until then, G's Polish salaries were low even by Western European standards (which is ~ >= 1/2 of SV pay).
  - gwnywg 4y ago
    In my opinion this makes sense, what would be the incentive to hire there if wages were the same?
    - tadzik_ 4y ago
      If you're struggling to find talent anywhere, why not hire in Poland? As a Polish engineer, we all know that companies are struggling to hire anyone. If you think you can hire a local instead of me for the same money, good luck. From my perspective, if I'm delivering the same value as someone from another country I should not be paid less. My cost of living is my own business, whether it's the lease on a car, the number of kids I have or, in this case, the country I choose to live in. Part of the hiring in cheaper countries is the possibility to exploit the wealth disparity and cut costs, sure. But in case of remote IT jobs, IME it's more of a fact that companies can't find anyone so they'll hire from anywhere, including cheaper countries. Doesn't mean that the employees should let themselves be played though, it's a seller's market after all (for now).
      - gwnywg 4y ago
        I'm no expert and try to judge based on what I personally experienced, and I get your point. But I also know this is not how businesses operate. Having seen it from the inside, hearing those conversations, I know business decision makers would rather hire somebody locally than from abroad (from different jurisdiction) - if overal cost of hire was the same. But if you can get the same work done and pay less, then this is objectively worthy thing to be done. I have seen huge corporation pivoting towards outsourcing everything to India (software development, accounting, customer support, everything) because it was way cheaper than run those centers locally. This is becoming less and less fruitful since India had seen their wages going up in the past years, so at some point this trend may reverse. I bet there are others who have different and maybe more grounded opinions, I only share what I experienced myself.
        tadzik_ 4y ago
        Oh, I absolutely agree – there is an overhead to hiring remotely (especially if you need to operate another business there, like Google does in Warsaw), so if you have to pay someone the same and cover that overhead then it's a bad business decision to do this at all. Timezone/cultural issues also come into this. So yeah, I'm not surprised that businesses (try to) do this – but in the current situation it's worthwhile (and possible) for the hires (especially contractors) to try to go against that and argue for higher pay. Even if the actual SV salary is not within reach, you can at least try to stay within the same order of magnitude – and more often than not, especially at the end of the interview process, it'd be cheaper for the company to hire you anyway than to start over with someone else. That's all in my narrow experience of working with smaller companies – in megacorps with strict levels/salary rules like Google it's probably another story. And that's also why Google is not (any longer?) the holy grail for Polish workers.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    I'm curious did you move from Poland to Ireland then for the salary bump? I'm guessing Google Ireland pays similar to Google SV, is that correct?
    - genousti 4y ago
      Lol. No they dont for l6-l7 ull get 200k TC a bit more if u negotiate well. For ny Ill get 500k. Trust me nyc is not twice as expensive as dublin paris or london. Also in usa they will give me 401k and free healthcare. In france or dublin ull get almost 50% tax and u will put money into a public pension that you will likely never see and that is shit
- yardstick 4y ago
  Polish salaries are maybe not SV high but they are climbing. $100k USD/year plus for a contract engineer. Not cheap.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    The number my friend got was considerably less than that. Very concerning. Of course this is all hearsay. I don't know how real that figure is, but it's not particularly inspiring so I don't see why would anyone lie about it.
    - oblio 4y ago
      The comment above mentions a contract engineer, so a consultant, presumably. Maybe the salaries are lower for regular employees.
      - yardstick 4y ago
        Yeah can’t comment for local employees of local companies. Just have knowledge of UK & US companies hiring/outsourcing to Poland. It was cheap, not so much anymore.
  - cromka 4y ago
    Did you calculate in the weak Zloty into that sum?
    - baq 4y ago
      remote contractor == likely paid in USD
      - yardstick 4y ago
        Exactly.
    - HighlandSpring 4y ago
      If PLN depreciates against USD (as it has this year) and the contract is USD denominated (which is simpler for Google so likely the case) then you'll have actually received a gradual payrise!
- Tade0 4y ago
  Yes, the local market rate. Your bog-standard senior role clocks in at $65k, but that's something you can get around here without going through many hoops. From a company with such an infamously convoluted hiring process I would expect no less than $90k - apparently that's not the case here. Fancy Silicon Valley salaries are naturally out of the question. Highest number to date in my social circle was $150k/yr - a brief, beautiful moment for one senior front-end developer working remotely as a contractor.
  - badpun 4y ago
    I'm contracting remotely out of Poland and $150k-$170k is definitely doable, especially if you're willing to work for an US company (and adjust to their timezone a bit).
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      I'm curious - are you an American yourself?
      - badpun 4y ago
        Nope, native Polish. Never really lived outside of Poland.
        Nextgrid 4y ago
        If you don't mind me asking, what's your legal setup and way of landing US contracts? Most I've seen require a US-based legal entity (which is the tricky bit I can't figure out, as to the best of my knowledge there's no way to set one up without having existing ties/citizenship in the US).
        gommm 4y ago
        I've contracted remotely for 10 years with US companies while living in different countries. I've never had a US based legal entity and it hasn't been a problem. It does make things slightly more complicated for them though and I'm sure that I lost some potential contracts due to this. In some cases (HK company while living in Asia), not having a US legal entity is a huge plus tax-wise.
nixass 4y ago
I was approached by both companies in Germany recently too, freeze doesn't mean full stop, just tightening it.
- Tade0 4y ago
  One detail I haven't mentioned is that remote roles were also on the table. I don't know how remote, but it's telling that Google is ready to make such concessions.
- mejutoco 4y ago
  I do not know if they are still hiring or not, but to me a hiring freeze means exactly that: a full stop. P.S. If a police shouts "freeze" I will fully stop :)
vitus 4y ago
We are indeed still conducting interviews (I had one just on Friday). Whether that transfers to actual offers extended during this time, I have no idea. What I can say we are absolutely not doing at this time is rescinding offers, even for new grads. There certainly have been some shifts over the past year or two to prioritize growth in cheaper markets (for lack of a better term) -- one manager I talked to mentioned that the headcount tradeoff was basically "one engineer in Mountain View, or 3-4 in Warsaw" (which is an accurate reflection of the salary disparity).
- 3np 4y ago
  "We" being...? (Without country the anecdote is not meaningful in this context)
  - dessertfan 4y ago
    Sounds like Google given the reference to Mountain View.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  Are Googlers in general okay with the idea that their contributions are worth 1/4 as much if they live in Warsaw?
  - killingtime74 4y ago
    By then accepting their contract, yes?
  - Anderkent 4y ago
    if it's the best offer you can get, would you quit just because someone else on another continent is being paid more?
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
_the_inflator 4y ago
Same here. Approached by FAANG. Judging from my perspective as a manager of a large department, I never ever experienced such a thing as an hiring stop. It always translates into tighter processes for approval, that's all. For example Finance laid off thousands of workers years ago - however they were hiring IT stuff. After all, great staff is still the most important factor aka resource.
- culi 4y ago
  > FAANG It's MANGA now :P
mathattack 4y ago
Interviews are very different than hiring. They still cost the company money but not as much as headcount. Some companies still interview when they figure out the long term strategy. This is consistent with the article describing Google’s behavior. When companies lay off recruiters you know the cuts are longer term.

by Tade0 4y ago

pzduniak 4y ago

Market rates? Oof, I thought they were still more competitive. They flat out refused to discuss comp with me before passing the interviews. Fascinating that now VC-funded companies are suddenly getting more and more competitive by not discriminating by region. Everyone tries to beat the market and they're more flexible regarding the employment contract, so eg. you can be self-employed and save 20% of your income from taxes.

__exit__ 4y ago

When you say the compensation was very close to the current market rate, I assume you mean the market rate in Poland, correct? No fancy Silicon Valley salaries for devs in Poland, that is.

woadwarrior01 4y ago
I left G in Ireland about 4 months ago for a fully remote position at a startup. Up until then, G's Polish salaries were low even by Western European standards (which is ~ >= 1/2 of SV pay).
- gwnywg 4y ago
  In my opinion this makes sense, what would be the incentive to hire there if wages were the same?
  - tadzik_ 4y ago
    If you're struggling to find talent anywhere, why not hire in Poland? As a Polish engineer, we all know that companies are struggling to hire anyone. If you think you can hire a local instead of me for the same money, good luck. From my perspective, if I'm delivering the same value as someone from another country I should not be paid less. My cost of living is my own business, whether it's the lease on a car, the number of kids I have or, in this case, the country I choose to live in. Part of the hiring in cheaper countries is the possibility to exploit the wealth disparity and cut costs, sure. But in case of remote IT jobs, IME it's more of a fact that companies can't find anyone so they'll hire from anywhere, including cheaper countries. Doesn't mean that the employees should let themselves be played though, it's a seller's market after all (for now).
    - gwnywg 4y ago
      I'm no expert and try to judge based on what I personally experienced, and I get your point. But I also know this is not how businesses operate. Having seen it from the inside, hearing those conversations, I know business decision makers would rather hire somebody locally than from abroad (from different jurisdiction) - if overal cost of hire was the same. But if you can get the same work done and pay less, then this is objectively worthy thing to be done. I have seen huge corporation pivoting towards outsourcing everything to India (software development, accounting, customer support, everything) because it was way cheaper than run those centers locally. This is becoming less and less fruitful since India had seen their wages going up in the past years, so at some point this trend may reverse. I bet there are others who have different and maybe more grounded opinions, I only share what I experienced myself.
      - tadzik_ 4y ago
        Oh, I absolutely agree – there is an overhead to hiring remotely (especially if you need to operate another business there, like Google does in Warsaw), so if you have to pay someone the same and cover that overhead then it's a bad business decision to do this at all. Timezone/cultural issues also come into this. So yeah, I'm not surprised that businesses (try to) do this – but in the current situation it's worthwhile (and possible) for the hires (especially contractors) to try to go against that and argue for higher pay. Even if the actual SV salary is not within reach, you can at least try to stay within the same order of magnitude – and more often than not, especially at the end of the interview process, it'd be cheaper for the company to hire you anyway than to start over with someone else. That's all in my narrow experience of working with smaller companies – in megacorps with strict levels/salary rules like Google it's probably another story. And that's also why Google is not (any longer?) the holy grail for Polish workers.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  I'm curious did you move from Poland to Ireland then for the salary bump? I'm guessing Google Ireland pays similar to Google SV, is that correct?
  - genousti 4y ago
    Lol. No they dont for l6-l7 ull get 200k TC a bit more if u negotiate well. For ny Ill get 500k. Trust me nyc is not twice as expensive as dublin paris or london. Also in usa they will give me 401k and free healthcare. In france or dublin ull get almost 50% tax and u will put money into a public pension that you will likely never see and that is shit
yardstick 4y ago
Polish salaries are maybe not SV high but they are climbing. $100k USD/year plus for a contract engineer. Not cheap.
- Tade0 4y ago
  The number my friend got was considerably less than that. Very concerning. Of course this is all hearsay. I don't know how real that figure is, but it's not particularly inspiring so I don't see why would anyone lie about it.
  - oblio 4y ago
    The comment above mentions a contract engineer, so a consultant, presumably. Maybe the salaries are lower for regular employees.
    - yardstick 4y ago
      Yeah can’t comment for local employees of local companies. Just have knowledge of UK & US companies hiring/outsourcing to Poland. It was cheap, not so much anymore.
- cromka 4y ago
  Did you calculate in the weak Zloty into that sum?
  - baq 4y ago
    remote contractor == likely paid in USD
    - yardstick 4y ago
      Exactly.
  - HighlandSpring 4y ago
    If PLN depreciates against USD (as it has this year) and the contract is USD denominated (which is simpler for Google so likely the case) then you'll have actually received a gradual payrise!
Tade0 4y ago
Yes, the local market rate. Your bog-standard senior role clocks in at $65k, but that's something you can get around here without going through many hoops. From a company with such an infamously convoluted hiring process I would expect no less than $90k - apparently that's not the case here. Fancy Silicon Valley salaries are naturally out of the question. Highest number to date in my social circle was $150k/yr - a brief, beautiful moment for one senior front-end developer working remotely as a contractor.
- badpun 4y ago
  I'm contracting remotely out of Poland and $150k-$170k is definitely doable, especially if you're willing to work for an US company (and adjust to their timezone a bit).
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    I'm curious - are you an American yourself?
    - badpun 4y ago
      Nope, native Polish. Never really lived outside of Poland.
      - Nextgrid 4y ago
        If you don't mind me asking, what's your legal setup and way of landing US contracts? Most I've seen require a US-based legal entity (which is the tricky bit I can't figure out, as to the best of my knowledge there's no way to set one up without having existing ties/citizenship in the US).
        gommm 4y ago
        I've contracted remotely for 10 years with US companies while living in different countries. I've never had a US based legal entity and it hasn't been a problem. It does make things slightly more complicated for them though and I'm sure that I lost some potential contracts due to this. In some cases (HK company while living in Asia), not having a US legal entity is a huge plus tax-wise.

nixass 4y ago

I was approached by both companies in Germany recently too, freeze doesn't mean full stop, just tightening it.

Tade0 4y ago
One detail I haven't mentioned is that remote roles were also on the table. I don't know how remote, but it's telling that Google is ready to make such concessions.
mejutoco 4y ago
I do not know if they are still hiring or not, but to me a hiring freeze means exactly that: a full stop. P.S. If a police shouts "freeze" I will fully stop :)

vitus 4y ago

We are indeed still conducting interviews (I had one just on Friday). Whether that transfers to actual offers extended during this time, I have no idea. What I can say we are absolutely not doing at this time is rescinding offers, even for new grads. There certainly have been some shifts over the past year or two to prioritize growth in cheaper markets (for lack of a better term) -- one manager I talked to mentioned that the headcount tradeoff was basically "one engineer in Mountain View, or 3-4 in Warsaw" (which is an accurate reflection of the salary disparity).

3np 4y ago
"We" being...? (Without country the anecdote is not meaningful in this context)
- dessertfan 4y ago
  Sounds like Google given the reference to Mountain View.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
anonymoushn 4y ago
Are Googlers in general okay with the idea that their contributions are worth 1/4 as much if they live in Warsaw?
- killingtime74 4y ago
  By then accepting their contract, yes?
- Anderkent 4y ago
  if it's the best offer you can get, would you quit just because someone else on another continent is being paid more?
- barry-cotter 4y ago

_the_inflator 4y ago

Same here. Approached by FAANG. Judging from my perspective as a manager of a large department, I never ever experienced such a thing as an hiring stop. It always translates into tighter processes for approval, that's all. For example Finance laid off thousands of workers years ago - however they were hiring IT stuff. After all, great staff is still the most important factor aka resource.

culi 4y ago
> FAANG It's MANGA now :P

mathattack 4y ago

Interviews are very different than hiring. They still cost the company money but not as much as headcount. Some companies still interview when they figure out the long term strategy. This is consistent with the article describing Google’s behavior. When companies lay off recruiters you know the cuts are longer term.