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Ok I’m not saying the OP is wrong, but couldn’t almost all of these arguments be made for Facebook / Instagram / Snapchat / etc as well? In general, social medi

Ok I’m not saying the OP is wrong, but couldn’t almost all of these arguments be made for Facebook / Instagram / Snapchat / etc as well? In general, social media has all these problems with addiction, platforms actively try to exploit that, and harvest data to monetise upon their users. From the article: “With these astounding numbers, TikTok must have something special, right? “Well it has. It uses manipulative user experience (UX) design to keep users glued to it. It is built to trigger compulsive use, especially in more impressionable audiences such as teenagers. It is also harmful to privacy.” Nothing of this list makes TikTok special, the only thing that makes it special is that it’s Chinese, and therefor subjected to more scrutiny (not claiming whether that’s justified or not, that’s another discussion in itself).

markdown 4y ago
> not claiming whether that’s justified or not Spoiler: it's justified.
ricardobeat 4y ago
In short, no. TikTok is the first to have a public feed by default, not based on friends, plus the vertical swiping that forces you to see all the content it suggests. Its design and usage patterns are significantly different from all the others you mentioned.
- TAForObvReasons 4y ago
  That is not relevant to the general point. The article punchline is > It uses manipulative user experience (UX) design to keep users glued to it. It is built to trigger compulsive use, especially in more impressionable audiences such as teenagers. It is also harmful to privacy. Facebook / Instagram used manipulative user experience design, even if it didn't manifest as a vertical swipe or public feed. While the details may be different, the overall problem was just as true back then as it is now
  - refulgentis 4y ago
    I see you're ensuring we understand Facebook and Instagram also optimize for engagement, I think the novelty here, for me at least, was the differences from Facebook and Instagram are quite significant.
    - alex_smart 4y ago
      And that significant difference is that TikTok is a Chinese company, not an American one. When you let go of the pretense, this is what all these articles and threads are all about.
      - eurasiantiger 4y ago
        I was about to say only one of these runs concentration camps but then I remembered gitmo and extraordinary renditions.
      - refulgentis 4y ago
        The algorithmic-only feed is quite a significant difference, to wit, Zuck noted in the last FB all hands that they were ramping this up to compete with TikTok, and were hoping to get Facebook/Instagram to merely ~30% algorithmic content (if memory serves). Use of algorithmic content exacerbates e.g. the intermittent rewards ""features"". I share your frustration with anyone who would use it as an excuse for xenophobia. I'm not sure why there's this dark cloud over the idea employees in China might be able to access videos that are public, sounds silly.
        alex_smart 4y ago
        As someone who has seen close family members with advanced college degrees turn into zombies consuming toxic right-wing propaganda on Whatsapp, Facebook and Youtube non-stop and my country's (India) whole political environment become incredibly toxic and polarized as a result, I have very little sympathy for the argument that TikTok with its little dance skits and stupid humor is exceptionally worse.
- rashidrafeek 4y ago
  Doesn't youtube shorts also have the same features.
  - smt88 4y ago
    YouTube Shorts is A) a transparent ripoff of TikTok, and B) not the only (or default) UI for YouTube.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- charcircuit 4y ago
  YouTube has had a feed by default not based off subscribers for years before TikTok.
  - ricardobeat 4y ago
    All of the aspects combined are what make TikTok what it is. You could say MySpace had public feeds way earlier, but that’s besides the point.
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      Facebook,twitter,flickr all had public feeds.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - jasonm23 4y ago
        Yes, but they were uninteresting, so not a problem. TikTok, has young people dancing... so there's your moral panic.
    - benjaminwootton 4y ago
      So TikTok are just playing exactly the same game, but playing it so well to the extent they should be regulated or banned?
      - sofixa 4y ago
        That's one of the ways anti-trust works, yes. If you're just a business doing a thing, no problem. If you get so good you become a de facto monopoly in some area, and start to exploit that dominant position in whatever way, it's time for regulations or a forceful breaking up to constraint you.
        aaomidi 4y ago
        TikTok is far from a monopoly though. Also break it up to what? The app is effectively a single feature.
- woweoe 4y ago
  Instagram? Twitter?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
3np 4y ago
Sure, but equally surely there's been no shortage of past articles raising similar issues about FB/IG/Snap. I question the utility of proposed regulation but society'd do well to depend less on all of these for social connectivity.
NoPicklez 4y ago
I remember the craze about World of Warcraft back in the day that it was incredibly addictive, like no other video game. Where they supposedly tested people's dopamine response to playing the game. Marriages ended over the game and there were countless news articles and segments on how addictive the game is. As I said in another post, saying that a particular thing drives pleasure or is designed to drive pleasure is obvious. Obviously you would design something so that it is pleasurable, otherwise people wouldn't use it. The difference here is the extent to how addictive it is and without some sort of measurement, it's hard to know if TikTok is any more dangerous than anything else that drives compulsive pleasure.
tarsinge 4y ago
That’s my sentiment too. The daily hit pieces on TikTok here on HN reads like a desperate US tech sector admitting weakness.
- classified 4y ago
  If you define "weakness" as "failure to cause the most damage while maximizing surveillance and profit" then yes.
  - Avamander 4y ago
    You're implying Facebook and YouTube don't?
  - tarsinge 4y ago
    No because by this rule TikTok is less problematic, it's just entertainment, it doesn't take the crown from FB/Twitter/YT for doing the most damage to society. Same for surveillance, the surface area is just too small compared to others.
angio 4y ago
> Facebook paid GOP firm to malign TikTok > The firm, Targeted Victory, pushed local operatives across the country to boost messages calling TikTok a threat to American children. > “Dream would be to get stories with headlines like ‘From dances to danger,’ ” one campaign director said. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/faceboo...

markdown 4y ago

> not claiming whether that’s justified or not Spoiler: it's justified.

ricardobeat 4y ago

In short, no. TikTok is the first to have a public feed by default, not based on friends, plus the vertical swiping that forces you to see all the content it suggests. Its design and usage patterns are significantly different from all the others you mentioned.

TAForObvReasons 4y ago
That is not relevant to the general point. The article punchline is > It uses manipulative user experience (UX) design to keep users glued to it. It is built to trigger compulsive use, especially in more impressionable audiences such as teenagers. It is also harmful to privacy. Facebook / Instagram used manipulative user experience design, even if it didn't manifest as a vertical swipe or public feed. While the details may be different, the overall problem was just as true back then as it is now
- refulgentis 4y ago
  I see you're ensuring we understand Facebook and Instagram also optimize for engagement, I think the novelty here, for me at least, was the differences from Facebook and Instagram are quite significant.
  - alex_smart 4y ago
    And that significant difference is that TikTok is a Chinese company, not an American one. When you let go of the pretense, this is what all these articles and threads are all about.
    - eurasiantiger 4y ago
      I was about to say only one of these runs concentration camps but then I remembered gitmo and extraordinary renditions.
    - refulgentis 4y ago
      The algorithmic-only feed is quite a significant difference, to wit, Zuck noted in the last FB all hands that they were ramping this up to compete with TikTok, and were hoping to get Facebook/Instagram to merely ~30% algorithmic content (if memory serves). Use of algorithmic content exacerbates e.g. the intermittent rewards ""features"". I share your frustration with anyone who would use it as an excuse for xenophobia. I'm not sure why there's this dark cloud over the idea employees in China might be able to access videos that are public, sounds silly.
      - alex_smart 4y ago
        As someone who has seen close family members with advanced college degrees turn into zombies consuming toxic right-wing propaganda on Whatsapp, Facebook and Youtube non-stop and my country's (India) whole political environment become incredibly toxic and polarized as a result, I have very little sympathy for the argument that TikTok with its little dance skits and stupid humor is exceptionally worse.
rashidrafeek 4y ago
Doesn't youtube shorts also have the same features.
- smt88 4y ago
  YouTube Shorts is A) a transparent ripoff of TikTok, and B) not the only (or default) UI for YouTube.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
charcircuit 4y ago
YouTube has had a feed by default not based off subscribers for years before TikTok.
- ricardobeat 4y ago
  All of the aspects combined are what make TikTok what it is. You could say MySpace had public feeds way earlier, but that’s besides the point.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Facebook,twitter,flickr all had public feeds.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - jasonm23 4y ago
      Yes, but they were uninteresting, so not a problem. TikTok, has young people dancing... so there's your moral panic.
  - benjaminwootton 4y ago
    So TikTok are just playing exactly the same game, but playing it so well to the extent they should be regulated or banned?
    - sofixa 4y ago
      That's one of the ways anti-trust works, yes. If you're just a business doing a thing, no problem. If you get so good you become a de facto monopoly in some area, and start to exploit that dominant position in whatever way, it's time for regulations or a forceful breaking up to constraint you.
      - aaomidi 4y ago
        TikTok is far from a monopoly though. Also break it up to what? The app is effectively a single feature.
woweoe 4y ago
Instagram? Twitter?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

3np 4y ago

Sure, but equally surely there's been no shortage of past articles raising similar issues about FB/IG/Snap. I question the utility of proposed regulation but society'd do well to depend less on all of these for social connectivity.

NoPicklez 4y ago

I remember the craze about World of Warcraft back in the day that it was incredibly addictive, like no other video game. Where they supposedly tested people's dopamine response to playing the game. Marriages ended over the game and there were countless news articles and segments on how addictive the game is. As I said in another post, saying that a particular thing drives pleasure or is designed to drive pleasure is obvious. Obviously you would design something so that it is pleasurable, otherwise people wouldn't use it. The difference here is the extent to how addictive it is and without some sort of measurement, it's hard to know if TikTok is any more dangerous than anything else that drives compulsive pleasure.

tarsinge 4y ago

That’s my sentiment too. The daily hit pieces on TikTok here on HN reads like a desperate US tech sector admitting weakness.

classified 4y ago
If you define "weakness" as "failure to cause the most damage while maximizing surveillance and profit" then yes.
- Avamander 4y ago
  You're implying Facebook and YouTube don't?
- tarsinge 4y ago
  No because by this rule TikTok is less problematic, it's just entertainment, it doesn't take the crown from FB/Twitter/YT for doing the most damage to society. Same for surveillance, the surface area is just too small compared to others.

angio 4y ago

> Facebook paid GOP firm to malign TikTok > The firm, Targeted Victory, pushed local operatives across the country to boost messages calling TikTok a threat to American children. > “Dream would be to get stories with headlines like ‘From dances to danger,’ ” one campaign director said. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/faceboo...