4 ms·

Well, it's also the people still on the ladder are the ones that aren't smart enough to realize there's diminishing returns on personal wealth and a diminishing

by kromem 4y ago

Well, it's also the people still on the ladder are the ones that aren't smart enough to realize there's diminishing returns on personal wealth and a diminishing supply of personal time. In less than two years I went from my second job out of college to being offered to come up with any role for myself in a 10B cap company in order to retain me as I was getting bored, and after a night's sleep I came back and gave my notice. The person that offered that position later turned down an offer for CEO of a 100B+ company for similar reasons. There absolutely are people out there that shoot up the ladder based on skill. But when the people holding the ladder don't realize at a certain point time is worth more than any amount of additional money, it's hard to keep those that do realize it from jumping off. The problem with filling the C-level positions isn't just that good candidates are obscured by founder Dunning-Kreuger, it's that generally the pool of candidates is going to be biased towards people echoing the BS toxic work culture that is the startup world, and the good candidates are going to have grown past participating in that charade. WFH and changing attitudes about work life balance may reduce achiever churn moving forward, but I still see the "I'm so busy" posturing with C-levels and their wannabes here and there when I still have to interact with them, so I doubt it's going away soon.

BoorishBears 4y ago
The two main themes of this comment don't mesh. Yes there can be diminishing returns on time, but C-suite positions are almost always on the declining side of time taken to do their jobs across their careers. The C-suite of a 100B+ company shouldn't be spending more than a few hours a day really working hard. Compare that to something like a staff engineer who's become the lynchpin for more layers of their engineering org than anyone could ever list. In fact I'd almost say no one has their WLB respected as much as people in the C-suite. Who's time in the entire org is considered more valuable? And who has more autonomy to define that WLB to begin with? The chair isn't going to complain because the CEO left at 3pm to catch his kid's baseball game...
- sulam 4y ago
  I’m going to go out on a very short limb and guess you’ve never actually worked closely with one of these people. I have, twice, and they work so hard they make me sad for them. Nonstop, there is no such thing as downtime. Yes they may go to their kid’s baseball game at 3, and proceed to answer 5 critical emails during it, take one or two calls, and then have a meeting on the drive home. After two more meetings from their house they have a quick dinner and do four more hours of work before they go to sleep, get up at 5am and work out, then work another 14 hours. During this entire day they may actually get 10 minutes to themselves, not all in one go of course. Their day is planned out in 15 minute increments and they have to constantly change gears as they go from one meeting to the next. Unless they want to be perceived as an asshole CEO they have to learn to keep a constant poker face, and always be the last to give an opinion for risk that they’ll never hear what people really think. Weekends are reserved for talking to investors, board members and key partners. It’s a super shitty life, but hey, they get to make more money than the rest of us, which mostly just causes them more headaches, like not knowing if anyone they meet is actually their friend or just looking for a handout.
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    Oof, where to begin? I've known more than a few CEOs between my father with his PhD in Business and specialization in strategic management and my own start in the startup world... but if we're just going out on condescending limbs, I'm going to go out on one and guess you're just coping with the "more money than the rest of us part" by convincing yourself CEOs have a horrible lonely lives? - The reality is nothing you described doesn't somewhat apply to anyone approaching higher levels of a career. For every study showing how depressed CEOs are compared to the peons, you'd find 10 more about how staff engineers/vps/product leads/etc. are too if anyone actually cared to study them. It's success that brings pressure and stress, not the title of C-suite. For example... "not knowing if anyone they meet is just looking for a handout" The median household income in this country is $67,000. If you're working in tech long enough to be turning down C-suite positions and don't already have this problem I'd start searching for a new job about 5 years ago. - Your vision of a CEO is either that of a founder CEO who lives like they're guiding their child (and will be replaced if the company ever grows large enough), or a Disney Channel movie you took too seriously. The "career C-suite" is not hired for their inability to commit to WLB. They're not hired to kiss ass on weekends. They're not hired to play psychologist to coax out your "true feelings". They definitely don't tend to hang around people who need handouts. They're not putting the company before themselves because at the end of the day the next job is waiting in the Rolodex. It is pretty hilarious that you think that though! Honestly you're describing what they wish people would see them as. I know plenty of C-suites would be over the moon with your characterization :)
- kromem 4y ago
  I think the other commenter is correct and you don't know as much about what you are talking about as you think. I'm not talking about small business CEOs that answer to themselves. I'll talking about CEOs that answer to the board and shareholders. One of the reasons I turned that position down was watching my mentor and boss offering it having just spent a week away from home flying red eye flights to China and then Europe and then the Midwest and then back to Europe for various meetings and events. I hated having to do a flight every other week even. This guy was in the office before anyone else and left after most were gone. Would put in at least a 60 hour week and MAYBE 10-15 hours of that was stuff someone else couldn't have done just fine. We were constantly having to run interference to hide work from him so he'd finally take a bit of time for himself. Yes, I think a much better infrastructure would have had him working 15 hours a week on what only he could do, and the rest of the time for family. But that's not what the reality was, and I saw that workaholism among most of the F500 C-levels I encountered, from the ones that were good, to the ones that had five great faking it. You simply can't hold one of those positions not being like that, and I am skeptical it is as much because of the workload as the work culture.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    > I am skeptical it is as much because of the workload as the work culture. Hmm, my leader told me I had to work more if I wanted to advance. I told him that I think someone (leader or otherwise) is doing something wrong if they or their team are working/forced to work more than 40 hours per week. Only later did I realize the implied criticism :)
  - dilyevsky 4y ago
    I’ve mostly had visibility into engineering VPs not C-suites and from my anecdotal observation there’s a wide range of hours they put in from 80hrs/week down to 40 vacation days every year. There seemed to be no easily observable correlation with actual output. I suspect a lot of suites are only as good as their admins and their managed orgs (duh)
- jandrewrogers 4y ago
  C-suite at large companies typically have horrific work schedules that preclude a real life, and it is largely unavoidable. That's the job, and one of the reasons most people can't do it. A handful of people are wired to live that way but most aren't. The C-suite is a job for a special kind of masochist that wants to live their role. Average people that want those roles likely don't understand what they entail. A staff engineer has sinecure by comparison.
moneywoes 4y ago
As someone firmly on the rat race, any insights into how you excelled so fast?

by kromem 4y ago

BoorishBears 4y ago

The two main themes of this comment don't mesh. Yes there can be diminishing returns on time, but C-suite positions are almost always on the declining side of time taken to do their jobs across their careers. The C-suite of a 100B+ company shouldn't be spending more than a few hours a day really working hard. Compare that to something like a staff engineer who's become the lynchpin for more layers of their engineering org than anyone could ever list. In fact I'd almost say no one has their WLB respected as much as people in the C-suite. Who's time in the entire org is considered more valuable? And who has more autonomy to define that WLB to begin with? The chair isn't going to complain because the CEO left at 3pm to catch his kid's baseball game...

sulam 4y ago
I’m going to go out on a very short limb and guess you’ve never actually worked closely with one of these people. I have, twice, and they work so hard they make me sad for them. Nonstop, there is no such thing as downtime. Yes they may go to their kid’s baseball game at 3, and proceed to answer 5 critical emails during it, take one or two calls, and then have a meeting on the drive home. After two more meetings from their house they have a quick dinner and do four more hours of work before they go to sleep, get up at 5am and work out, then work another 14 hours. During this entire day they may actually get 10 minutes to themselves, not all in one go of course. Their day is planned out in 15 minute increments and they have to constantly change gears as they go from one meeting to the next. Unless they want to be perceived as an asshole CEO they have to learn to keep a constant poker face, and always be the last to give an opinion for risk that they’ll never hear what people really think. Weekends are reserved for talking to investors, board members and key partners. It’s a super shitty life, but hey, they get to make more money than the rest of us, which mostly just causes them more headaches, like not knowing if anyone they meet is actually their friend or just looking for a handout.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  Oof, where to begin? I've known more than a few CEOs between my father with his PhD in Business and specialization in strategic management and my own start in the startup world... but if we're just going out on condescending limbs, I'm going to go out on one and guess you're just coping with the "more money than the rest of us part" by convincing yourself CEOs have a horrible lonely lives? - The reality is nothing you described doesn't somewhat apply to anyone approaching higher levels of a career. For every study showing how depressed CEOs are compared to the peons, you'd find 10 more about how staff engineers/vps/product leads/etc. are too if anyone actually cared to study them. It's success that brings pressure and stress, not the title of C-suite. For example... "not knowing if anyone they meet is just looking for a handout" The median household income in this country is $67,000. If you're working in tech long enough to be turning down C-suite positions and don't already have this problem I'd start searching for a new job about 5 years ago. - Your vision of a CEO is either that of a founder CEO who lives like they're guiding their child (and will be replaced if the company ever grows large enough), or a Disney Channel movie you took too seriously. The "career C-suite" is not hired for their inability to commit to WLB. They're not hired to kiss ass on weekends. They're not hired to play psychologist to coax out your "true feelings". They definitely don't tend to hang around people who need handouts. They're not putting the company before themselves because at the end of the day the next job is waiting in the Rolodex. It is pretty hilarious that you think that though! Honestly you're describing what they wish people would see them as. I know plenty of C-suites would be over the moon with your characterization :)
kromem 4y ago
I think the other commenter is correct and you don't know as much about what you are talking about as you think. I'm not talking about small business CEOs that answer to themselves. I'll talking about CEOs that answer to the board and shareholders. One of the reasons I turned that position down was watching my mentor and boss offering it having just spent a week away from home flying red eye flights to China and then Europe and then the Midwest and then back to Europe for various meetings and events. I hated having to do a flight every other week even. This guy was in the office before anyone else and left after most were gone. Would put in at least a 60 hour week and MAYBE 10-15 hours of that was stuff someone else couldn't have done just fine. We were constantly having to run interference to hide work from him so he'd finally take a bit of time for himself. Yes, I think a much better infrastructure would have had him working 15 hours a week on what only he could do, and the rest of the time for family. But that's not what the reality was, and I saw that workaholism among most of the F500 C-levels I encountered, from the ones that were good, to the ones that had five great faking it. You simply can't hold one of those positions not being like that, and I am skeptical it is as much because of the workload as the work culture.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  > I am skeptical it is as much because of the workload as the work culture. Hmm, my leader told me I had to work more if I wanted to advance. I told him that I think someone (leader or otherwise) is doing something wrong if they or their team are working/forced to work more than 40 hours per week. Only later did I realize the implied criticism :)
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  I’ve mostly had visibility into engineering VPs not C-suites and from my anecdotal observation there’s a wide range of hours they put in from 80hrs/week down to 40 vacation days every year. There seemed to be no easily observable correlation with actual output. I suspect a lot of suites are only as good as their admins and their managed orgs (duh)
jandrewrogers 4y ago
C-suite at large companies typically have horrific work schedules that preclude a real life, and it is largely unavoidable. That's the job, and one of the reasons most people can't do it. A handful of people are wired to live that way but most aren't. The C-suite is a job for a special kind of masochist that wants to live their role. Average people that want those roles likely don't understand what they entail. A staff engineer has sinecure by comparison.

moneywoes 4y ago

As someone firmly on the rat race, any insights into how you excelled so fast?