9 ms·

More than all the antitrust regulations being thrown at Google, I'd like to see regulators force Google to provide users customer support.

by dereg 4y ago

pid_0 4y ago
amadeuspagel 4y ago
Customer support that has access to google accounts, that can give everyone telling a sob story to some customer service rep access to your account?
- dereg 4y ago
  It certainly beats having to send an email to a faceless "support" address that ends up sending me the same 4 boilerplate questions when I try to figure out why my business locations' rule-compliant map listings were suspended from My Business even when I spend $15k per month on Google ads, sure. It hurts my business (there hasn't been a resolution since when the issue arose four years ago), but it's not nearly the hurt that the folks the librarian is helping are feeling. Maybe, just maybe, if people are sobbing, maybe there's a good reason why! And maybe, just maybe, if you don't want to receive such support, you can advocate for a system in which you could opt out of all such processes entirely, instead of arguing that any form of account remediation shouldn't exist.
- nick__m 4y ago
  Your concern while valid seems solvable. They could preauthorize a random token amount on credit card with matching details, have you call the number on the back of your card to figure out that amount and then you have to input that number to authorize the access in an oath like flow. Please tell me if you see something wrong with my procedure? edit: I saw something wrong, I have forgotten about the vast unbanked population in the rest of the world as we don't have that problem in Canada¹ 1) https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-most-unbanked-countries https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-most-...
  - lolinder 4y ago
    The disadvantaged people who the librarian talks about (selling their phone to make ends meet) may not have a credit card to charge.
  - wjko21 4y ago
    As with every other "simple solution" to a complex problem there are a few flaws: a) google will have to require a credit card in order to open an email b) person opening an email account must actually have a line of credit, e.g.: many of the people mentioned in the OP will not have it c) opens a new attack vector on google accounts, e.g.: people who secured their emails using 2FA app for example can now be attacked via a credit card process
    - thayne 4y ago
      a and c can be solved by making it an option for 2fa instead of requiring it.
      - wjko21 4y ago
        but you already know what will happen next, don't you? People would stop using 2FA, then some donkey on government contract with access to nuclear weapons gets hacked, and everybody would lose their mind: "how could google be so stupid to allow people not use 2FA?!?!?!"
        thayne 4y ago
        I'd be asking why was someone using gmail for anything related to nuclear weapons.
        wjko21 4y ago
        I don't know if you are being sarcastic or naive here... Why would Hillary use her own email server for critical government correspondence? I don't know! Reasons I guess. People on all levels tend do stupid stuff every once in a while
- lolinder 4y ago
  This comment does raise a serious concern. The primary reason why cell phone numbers are bad for 2FA is sim swapping, which can only occur because there is a customer support rep who can fall for it. Email is largely immune to that right now because customer support generally cannot let you into an account you locked yourself out of. This isn't to say that this is an unsolvable problem, it's not, but it's definitely worth talking about.
  - saalweachter 4y ago
    I'd like to see the Post Office (in the US) get involved. Post offices are geographically ubiquitous, already deal with identity verification, and already have to maintain the trustworthiness of their workforce. I'd like to see a system where (a) an account [whether GMail, Facebook, Schwab or Bob's Online Pet Food Mart] can be tied to a real-world identity and (b) when you lose access, you can go to the local post office to verify your identity and get a one-time recovery token for a given account.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Google already has the ability to generate one time use recovery codes, at least for gmail accounts -- not sure if it is generally integrated into their Authenticator app. You could generate some recovery codes and put them in a safe deposit box or something I guess. This sort of solution (and your post office idea) can be, but they don't satisfy the last resort customer service role, for people who haven't set these kinds of recovery options up.
      - stevenjgarner 4y ago
        This IS the reply Shelley Rosen needs to see, understand and impart to her patrons. It does not cost anything, it is secure and it works. I feel 2FA is a class libraries should be teaching. I am off to my local library to volunteer as a resource for that specific purpose. Anybody going to join me at their local library? I was going to make the recovery code comment myself, but instead I did a search to see if anyone else had done so. Kudos. If would vote this comment to the top of the discussion if I only could. IMO it should be (part of) a PSA.
robertlagrant 4y ago
> More than all the antitrust regulations being thrown at Google, I'd like to see regulators force Google to provide users customer support. I would recommend a $5/month email service. It would be nice if free Gmail gave even more free stuff, but only a paid for service can really expect paid support staff. Having said that, this seems like a terrible idea from a security perspective. There may well be no way to design a service that is resistant to social engineering and lets you unlock your account via a phone call.
- jve 4y ago
  > I would recommend a $5/month email service. Surprise! There is. https://workspace.google.com/intl/en_ie/pricing.html https://workspace.google.com/intl/en_ie/pricing.html > Google Workspace Standard Support—Standard Support is included with your Google Workspace license. It provides support with a 4-hour service-level objective (SLO) for P1 cases. If you're interested in faster response times and additional Support services, Enhanced or Premium Support might be a better fit for your business. https://support.google.com/a/answer/10105075?hl=en&ref_topic=7067151 https://support.google.com/a/answer/10105075?hl=en&ref_topic... A good question is what does P1 case means. Locked out of email or "sorry Google, I just wanted to say your global email network is down, when it's gonna be up?"
  - benhurmarcel 4y ago
    Can you contact support if you can't log in?
    - e40 4y ago
      Yes. EDIT: it's not $5 in the US (between $6 and $7). I've called support a bunch of times.
- thayne 4y ago
  Right. Why would these poor and often elderly people pay for a $5/month email service when there are several free options they choose instead?
bawolff 4y ago
I don't. Customer support is a cost sink that usually isnt empowered to do anything. Its more PR tactic to make people feel they are "heard" without resorting to twitter. In the email/business apps space, google is clearly not a monopoly. Presence/quality of customer support seems a very reasonable grounds to have normal competition over.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Hm? I'd say about 80% of calls I make to customer service accomplish the goal I have (canceling something I can't cancel online, doing some kind of "identity verification," etc.).
- reaperducer 4y ago
  Customer support is a cost sink Too bad. If you have a business (and Google is a business) that goes business with the public (which Google does), you should offer some form of customer services. It's what we human beings call "the right thing to do." Yes, customer service costs money. It costs money for the dry cleaners, the restaurants, the banks, the car washes, the design firms, and every single other company on the planet. It's a basic part of the financials of running a business, and is called "cost of doing business." Imagine if Google's vendors stopped offering Google customer service. Janitor didn't show up today? Well, clean your own office toilet today, technie. Surely, there's a YouTube tutorial for that. Just because Google's a "tech" company, people on HN pretend like it's OK to not provide customer service. Bullshit. It has billions and billions and billions of dollars that it can throw at the customer service problem, but it doesn't for one simple reason: Greed. How about the restaurant down the street maximizes its shareholder profits by not honoring your reservation? How about the dry cleaner optimizes its workflow by only being open three minutes a day? How about your kid's school right-sizes its workforce responsibilities by kicking your kid out on the street when you got stuck in traffic and couldn't pick him up at the exact moment the school bell rang? If Google is so wonderful, full of so many smart people, then how come it can't solve its customer service problem? Ignoring the problem isn't a solution. You can do better™.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
Americans with disabilities act? Haha, google doesn't provide good customer service for able bodied, so they provide the equal service for disabled. Big tech needs a reckoning from consumer protection. Oh wait, those laws and the government agency were gutted. Nevermind. Being a relatively new parent, the lack of consumer protection regulation in things like kids apps, youtube ads, and similar is APPALLING. I recall from my youth TV programming was highly regulated, arguably a bit too much, but at least the advertising industry had to stay within bounds. App and youtube ads are the wild west, especially freemium games using any and all addictive mechanisms to extract money from kids and their parents. Aside from that, big tech can't have it both ways. They can't be major providers of "cyberspace" services and provide no means for customer service or protection from their security automated services locking out someone. Why this isn't subject to large civil penalties, massive class action lawsuits, and even criminal violation of federal law is beyond me. Terms of Service can't cover all of those, but then again, I haven't read them so... Online services are steadily gaining importance equal to things like banking. Can you imagine a bank locking you out of your accounts and providing no means to get YOUR MONEY? Well, replace money with information. Why can't you get access to YOUR INFORMATION? I understand the ToS providing the rights to analyze and use YOUR INFORMATION as part of the service, but we need federal legislation equal to the EU laws that I think do a better (but from what I can tell incomplete) job of delimiting the rights you have to YOUR INFORMATION.
- fredgrott 4y ago
  Actually one simple act would bring US tech to its knees. Just changing terms of incorporation retroactively so that a percentage of individual share holders must vote in board elections not by proxy. What we are seeing is a symptom of the system of corporation government that is unbalanced by design wrought in hell.

More than all the antitrust regulations being thrown at Google, I'd like to see regulators force Google to provide users customer support.

by dereg 4y ago

More than all the antitrust regulations being thrown at Google, I'd like to see regulators force Google to provide users customer support.

pid_0 4y ago

amadeuspagel 4y ago

Customer support that has access to google accounts, that can give everyone telling a sob story to some customer service rep access to your account?

dereg 4y ago
It certainly beats having to send an email to a faceless "support" address that ends up sending me the same 4 boilerplate questions when I try to figure out why my business locations' rule-compliant map listings were suspended from My Business even when I spend $15k per month on Google ads, sure. It hurts my business (there hasn't been a resolution since when the issue arose four years ago), but it's not nearly the hurt that the folks the librarian is helping are feeling. Maybe, just maybe, if people are sobbing, maybe there's a good reason why! And maybe, just maybe, if you don't want to receive such support, you can advocate for a system in which you could opt out of all such processes entirely, instead of arguing that any form of account remediation shouldn't exist.
nick__m 4y ago
Your concern while valid seems solvable. They could preauthorize a random token amount on credit card with matching details, have you call the number on the back of your card to figure out that amount and then you have to input that number to authorize the access in an oath like flow. Please tell me if you see something wrong with my procedure? edit: I saw something wrong, I have forgotten about the vast unbanked population in the rest of the world as we don't have that problem in Canada¹ 1) https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-most-unbanked-countries https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-most-...
- lolinder 4y ago
  The disadvantaged people who the librarian talks about (selling their phone to make ends meet) may not have a credit card to charge.
- wjko21 4y ago
  As with every other "simple solution" to a complex problem there are a few flaws: a) google will have to require a credit card in order to open an email b) person opening an email account must actually have a line of credit, e.g.: many of the people mentioned in the OP will not have it c) opens a new attack vector on google accounts, e.g.: people who secured their emails using 2FA app for example can now be attacked via a credit card process
  - thayne 4y ago
    a and c can be solved by making it an option for 2fa instead of requiring it.
    - wjko21 4y ago
      but you already know what will happen next, don't you? People would stop using 2FA, then some donkey on government contract with access to nuclear weapons gets hacked, and everybody would lose their mind: "how could google be so stupid to allow people not use 2FA?!?!?!"
      - thayne 4y ago
        I'd be asking why was someone using gmail for anything related to nuclear weapons.
        wjko21 4y ago
        I don't know if you are being sarcastic or naive here... Why would Hillary use her own email server for critical government correspondence? I don't know! Reasons I guess. People on all levels tend do stupid stuff every once in a while
lolinder 4y ago
This comment does raise a serious concern. The primary reason why cell phone numbers are bad for 2FA is sim swapping, which can only occur because there is a customer support rep who can fall for it. Email is largely immune to that right now because customer support generally cannot let you into an account you locked yourself out of. This isn't to say that this is an unsolvable problem, it's not, but it's definitely worth talking about.
- saalweachter 4y ago
  I'd like to see the Post Office (in the US) get involved. Post offices are geographically ubiquitous, already deal with identity verification, and already have to maintain the trustworthiness of their workforce. I'd like to see a system where (a) an account [whether GMail, Facebook, Schwab or Bob's Online Pet Food Mart] can be tied to a real-world identity and (b) when you lose access, you can go to the local post office to verify your identity and get a one-time recovery token for a given account.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Google already has the ability to generate one time use recovery codes, at least for gmail accounts -- not sure if it is generally integrated into their Authenticator app. You could generate some recovery codes and put them in a safe deposit box or something I guess. This sort of solution (and your post office idea) can be, but they don't satisfy the last resort customer service role, for people who haven't set these kinds of recovery options up.
    - stevenjgarner 4y ago
      This IS the reply Shelley Rosen needs to see, understand and impart to her patrons. It does not cost anything, it is secure and it works. I feel 2FA is a class libraries should be teaching. I am off to my local library to volunteer as a resource for that specific purpose. Anybody going to join me at their local library? I was going to make the recovery code comment myself, but instead I did a search to see if anyone else had done so. Kudos. If would vote this comment to the top of the discussion if I only could. IMO it should be (part of) a PSA.

robertlagrant 4y ago

> More than all the antitrust regulations being thrown at Google, I'd like to see regulators force Google to provide users customer support. I would recommend a $5/month email service. It would be nice if free Gmail gave even more free stuff, but only a paid for service can really expect paid support staff. Having said that, this seems like a terrible idea from a security perspective. There may well be no way to design a service that is resistant to social engineering and lets you unlock your account via a phone call.

jve 4y ago
> I would recommend a $5/month email service. Surprise! There is. https://workspace.google.com/intl/en_ie/pricing.html https://workspace.google.com/intl/en_ie/pricing.html > Google Workspace Standard Support—Standard Support is included with your Google Workspace license. It provides support with a 4-hour service-level objective (SLO) for P1 cases. If you're interested in faster response times and additional Support services, Enhanced or Premium Support might be a better fit for your business. https://support.google.com/a/answer/10105075?hl=en&ref_topic=7067151 https://support.google.com/a/answer/10105075?hl=en&ref_topic... A good question is what does P1 case means. Locked out of email or "sorry Google, I just wanted to say your global email network is down, when it's gonna be up?"
- benhurmarcel 4y ago
  Can you contact support if you can't log in?
  - e40 4y ago
    Yes. EDIT: it's not $5 in the US (between $6 and $7). I've called support a bunch of times.
thayne 4y ago
Right. Why would these poor and often elderly people pay for a $5/month email service when there are several free options they choose instead?

bawolff 4y ago

I don't. Customer support is a cost sink that usually isnt empowered to do anything. Its more PR tactic to make people feel they are "heard" without resorting to twitter. In the email/business apps space, google is clearly not a monopoly. Presence/quality of customer support seems a very reasonable grounds to have normal competition over.

woodruffw 4y ago
Hm? I'd say about 80% of calls I make to customer service accomplish the goal I have (canceling something I can't cancel online, doing some kind of "identity verification," etc.).
reaperducer 4y ago
Customer support is a cost sink Too bad. If you have a business (and Google is a business) that goes business with the public (which Google does), you should offer some form of customer services. It's what we human beings call "the right thing to do." Yes, customer service costs money. It costs money for the dry cleaners, the restaurants, the banks, the car washes, the design firms, and every single other company on the planet. It's a basic part of the financials of running a business, and is called "cost of doing business." Imagine if Google's vendors stopped offering Google customer service. Janitor didn't show up today? Well, clean your own office toilet today, technie. Surely, there's a YouTube tutorial for that. Just because Google's a "tech" company, people on HN pretend like it's OK to not provide customer service. Bullshit. It has billions and billions and billions of dollars that it can throw at the customer service problem, but it doesn't for one simple reason: Greed. How about the restaurant down the street maximizes its shareholder profits by not honoring your reservation? How about the dry cleaner optimizes its workflow by only being open three minutes a day? How about your kid's school right-sizes its workforce responsibilities by kicking your kid out on the street when you got stuck in traffic and couldn't pick him up at the exact moment the school bell rang? If Google is so wonderful, full of so many smart people, then how come it can't solve its customer service problem? Ignoring the problem isn't a solution. You can do better™.
- shadowgovt 4y ago

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

Americans with disabilities act? Haha, google doesn't provide good customer service for able bodied, so they provide the equal service for disabled. Big tech needs a reckoning from consumer protection. Oh wait, those laws and the government agency were gutted. Nevermind. Being a relatively new parent, the lack of consumer protection regulation in things like kids apps, youtube ads, and similar is APPALLING. I recall from my youth TV programming was highly regulated, arguably a bit too much, but at least the advertising industry had to stay within bounds. App and youtube ads are the wild west, especially freemium games using any and all addictive mechanisms to extract money from kids and their parents. Aside from that, big tech can't have it both ways. They can't be major providers of "cyberspace" services and provide no means for customer service or protection from their security automated services locking out someone. Why this isn't subject to large civil penalties, massive class action lawsuits, and even criminal violation of federal law is beyond me. Terms of Service can't cover all of those, but then again, I haven't read them so... Online services are steadily gaining importance equal to things like banking. Can you imagine a bank locking you out of your accounts and providing no means to get YOUR MONEY? Well, replace money with information. Why can't you get access to YOUR INFORMATION? I understand the ToS providing the rights to analyze and use YOUR INFORMATION as part of the service, but we need federal legislation equal to the EU laws that I think do a better (but from what I can tell incomplete) job of delimiting the rights you have to YOUR INFORMATION.

fredgrott 4y ago
Actually one simple act would bring US tech to its knees. Just changing terms of incorporation retroactively so that a percentage of individual share holders must vote in board elections not by proxy. What we are seeing is a symptom of the system of corporation government that is unbalanced by design wrought in hell.