7 ms·

Apple keyboards are the same as Windows, they just have different labels. The ALT key is called "option". CTRL is "control" and the windows key is "command".

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hnlmorg 4y ago
Lots more different than that: + Windows has the Windows key (which Linux called "super") + Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that + The Mac keyboard layout is US-like, even on European models. Which means a bunch of keys are in different places from their European IBM counterparts (like @ and "). The # and / keys I find particularly hard to locate on Macs. I often end up redefining my Mac keyboard to be an IBM keyboard even though it differs from the key caps. It's a nightmare for anyone using my Mac but much easier for me who's had ~40 years of muscle memory. Not the keyboard hardware (so somewhat out of scope for this context) but it's also worth noting that there's some macOS keyboard shortcuts that differ in really confusing ways too. Like + Ctrl+C vs Cmd+C + Text area navigation on a Mac is totally different too. Home and End buttons behave differently. Ctrl+Arrow keys don't work. Shift+Arrow keys don't select. etc Every time I spend a few months in Linux and then switch to a Mac (or visa versa) I inevitably have a few days of pain relearning short cut keys.
- Hamuko 4y ago
  >The Mac keyboard layout is US-like, even on European models. Which means a bunch of keys are in different places from their European IBM counterparts (like @ and "). I just checked three external Apple keyboards, one integrated Apple Keyboard and a Logitech G15, and as far as I can tell, all of them have the @ and " in the same places.
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    They do differ on the UK keyboards (examples below). Other keyboards for other European languages will differ in different ways (differ both from the UK layout and also from the US layout). UK Mac keyboard: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MMMR3B/A/magic-keyboard-with-touch-id-and-numeric-keypad-for-mac-models-with-apple-silicon-british-english-black-keys?fnode=128684b684e9520c37c3b8524ac050b9a97208600313a9b77f9e136b1854005da09fba8d18088cc2a010842ea66906080a21773f24b4372dfc9546c40739666d2459bd456df5c34f1767434a62ceac32dde26071511a9e5698a4f8483e1e1104d9ac100faa068b066d8b20bcb3abf561 https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MMMR3B/A/magic-keyboar... A random UK "IBM" keyboard: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultra-Classic-style-keyboard-Black/dp/B009PKF9WK https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultra-Classic-style-keyboard-Black/...
- pasc1878 4y ago
  Much of that is not the keyboard but the OS So running Linux on an Apple keyboard will not have the last two issues. As for # in macOSdon't use a UK layout use Irish or Australian which are the same except for shift-3
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    > Much of that is not the keyboard but the OS So running Linux on an Apple keyboard will not have the last two issues. Only the last two items and I did prefix those items saying it was the OS so wouldn't be affected by running Linux. I'm not trying to deceive people here. > As for # in macOSdon't use a UK layout use Irish or Australian which are the same except for shift-3 ...or you can just redefine the keyboard layout, as I also stated in my comment (I assume you did actually read it?). None of the problems I raised were intended to be negative about Apple so you don't need to jump to the defence here. I'm just stating the differences between Mac and IBM/Microsoft keyboard layouts.
    - Macha 4y ago
      Sometimes Mac OS doesn't like to co-operate with "just change the keyboard layout": https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/255082/external-iso-keyboards-treated-as-ansi-since-macbook-pro-upgraded-to-macos-sierr https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/255082/external-is...
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > The Mac keyboard layout is US-like This is absolutely false. European Mac keyboards are ISO. The labeling doesn’t matter, as rolling your own layout is trivial.
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    Being ISO doesn't mean it's not "US-like". The UK layout, for example, does differ considerably between Macs and IBM, with the UK Mac layout being closer to a US layout than a UK IBM layout (examples posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304113). I couldn't give a crap if the UK Mac layout is an ISO standard or not because that doesn't magically change the way I use a keyboard. Furthermore I made the exact same point about redefining the layout. You claim to debunk my post yet go on to make literally the same points I did. In literally the same bullet point you're trying to debunk too! (I'd forgotten why I usually avoid commenting on Apple-based threads. Ever word is analysed and if it can be interpreted in even a remotely disparaging way by either your Apple or Linux fanboys, then they'll stop reading the entirety of your comment and pull that one phrase out with some terse rebuttal phrased as if the original poster was an idiot. Completely irrelevant of whether that rebuttal is actually just reiterating the OPs comment or even if the original comment, when read in full, was actually negative at all.
    - Twisell 4y ago
      Well actually you are both partially right and wrong. The French Apple layout is closer to the Windows layout than the Mac US version. But it is quite divergent from both US layout and french windows because it included localized typographic enhancements inherited from the 1980's. They basically localized differently on Windows and MacOs. There is another ISO international flavor of the Apple Keyboard that look closer to the US version but it never took traction in french market. I guess that even if switching from Win/Mac french layout require some time to rewire muscle memory it's still easier than to to opt for international layout. For instance on both Win/Mac fr by default numbered keys pad require shift to produce number while by default they are used for accentuations. PS: I have a mechanical Mac Intl ISO keyboard because I sometimes switch to US, but when writing in FR I still as of today use french layout using muscle memory What is actually ashaming from Apple is that oftentimes some dev oriented shortcuts (like Cmd + Shift + Period) have never been properly localized in macOS which is why using Intl keyboard help in some contexts (it fail because shift is already required to produce "Period" in classical french layout)
- pizza234 4y ago
  > + Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that As a curiosity, this is actually very useful for keyboard-only users. On X11 at least, context menu display is typically associated to Shift+F10. However, in some cases (I think the file panel in Sublime Text 3 was a notable case; not sure in v4), this binding doesn't work. Context menu key gives a binding that is guaranteed to work :)
- mort96 4y ago
  Every Norwegian Mac laptop keyboard has been physically identical to every Norwegian PC laptop keyboard I've used, with the exception of the label changes and the missing context menu key. And Mac keyboards have the Windows key, they just call it "command" instead of "Windows" or "super" but it's in the same place.
  - wildrhythms 4y ago
    The Command key is not in the same place as the Windows key; the Command key neighbors the spacebar, whereas the Windows key is wedged between Alt and Ctrl.
    - mort96 4y ago
      Oh you're right. I use right cmd/right super so rarely that I never noticed, despite regularly using both types.
      - tekknik 4y ago
        It also doesn’t function the same, with the windows key being used mostly (only?) for global shortcuts like locking the machine.
- zajio1am 4y ago
  > Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that It is a convenient key to map compose key on.
- vocram 4y ago
  Text navigation works in the same way on Linux/mac using readline key bindings.
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    Not sure what you're implying here. CLI applications? Because they'd obviously behave the same. The issues I've noticed are around desktop applications. For example if I select some text in KWrite (KDE's "Notepad") by using SHIFT+CTRL+LEFT_ARROW then it will select the word. If I do the equivalent in Notes (macOS) it will select the whole line, not just the word (I tested this just now too). This platform specific behavioural differences isn't something that's unique when comparing to KWrite vs Notes, I just picked those applications as an example. It also isn't just SHIFT+CTRL+LEFT_ARROW that differs. There's a quite a few subtle differences when using the keyboard to navigate around text areas. None of them significant but they're always enough to break my concentration when trying to get stuff done. A lot of these can be redefined. Both on Linux and on macOS though. So you can absolutely make the two platforms behave the same way, given enough time and motivation. So we are just talking about defaults here.
    - Gracana 4y ago
      Text entry fields in mac programs accept emacs mode ctrl combos. c-a, e, u etc.
      - hnlmorg 4y ago
        I just tried that in 3 different applications: Finder (search bar), Notes, and Slack (just in case it was an Electron specific behaviour). I couldn't get those readline/emacs bindings to work on either. This is a brand new MacBook Pro with all the defaults for the UK region so it's definitely not something I've (knowingly) disabled. Is this something that needs to be enabled? Or is it dependant on something else to work? It's definitely a feature I'd welcome.
        Gracana 4y ago
- sharikous 4y ago
  > The Mac keyboard layout is US-like In Israel we have the option of choosing Macs with US layout or keyboard layout. What changes is mainly the enter key on two rows of the European models, the character "`", and the characters next to the shift keys.
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    Indeed, that's my point. What you've described (Mac US vs Mac UK) less significant than comparing a UK Mac and a UK IBM keyboard. I'm not suggesting that a UK Mac keyboard is "the same" as a US Mac. Just that for someone used to a UK IBM keyboard, a UK Mac keyboard will feel different (and visa versa for Mac users switching to IBM keyboards).
- tekknik 4y ago
  > macOS keyboard shortcuts that differ in really confusing ways too. Like + Ctrl+C vs Cmd+C + Text area navigation on a Mac is totally different too. Home and End buttons behave differently. Ctrl+Arrow keys don't work. Shift+Arrow keys don't select. etc Cmd+C is actually more comfortable to me, as you use your thumb instead of pinky. My pinky is always fatigued after using a Win/Lin machine. Shift + Arrow keys do select text, you must have something configured differently. I don't remember what Ctrl + Arrow keys does on Win/Lin, assuming it's word boundaries that is Option + Arrow keys. Overall my experience with Apple keyboard shortcuts is much more positive than on Window and Linux. On Windows it feels like they've run out of modifier keys due to locking the Windows key behind windows specific features, and Linux mostly just copied windows.
  - hnlmorg 4y ago
    > Cmd+C is actually more comfortable to me, as you use your thumb instead of pinky. My pinky is always fatigued after using a Win/Lin machine. I'd say they're the same in terms of comfort but I do appreciate CMD+C when working in the terminal. > Shift + Arrow keys do select text, you must have something configured differently. They select text differently. I went into more details about the differences there in a different post on this same thread. > Overall my experience with Apple keyboard shortcuts is much more positive than on Window and Linux. On Windows it feels like they've run out of modifier keys due to locking the Windows key behind windows specific features, and Linux mostly just copied windows. I think it's 100% down to whatever is muscle memory. I've you're more familiar with the Mac shortcuts then you'll prefer that, and likewise for the Windows/Linux shortcuts. Saying one is better than the other is rather silly when it's entirely down to whatever you've committed to muscle memory. Hence why my point wasn't about preference but rather just pointing out that there are differences one has to adapt to when switching from one platform to another (whichever direction that switch might be).
    - tekknik 4y ago
      > Hence why my point wasn't about preference but rather just pointing out that there are differences one has to adapt to when switching from one platform to another (whichever direction that switch might be). Think about this from the high level, it’s obvious yes? Why did you write an essay on “Windows, Linux, and Mac key shortcuts are different” and then “it’s clearly subjective” These are obvious statements.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hnlmorg 4y ago

Lots more different than that: + Windows has the Windows key (which Linux called "super") + Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that + The Mac keyboard layout is US-like, even on European models. Which means a bunch of keys are in different places from their European IBM counterparts (like @ and "). The # and / keys I find particularly hard to locate on Macs. I often end up redefining my Mac keyboard to be an IBM keyboard even though it differs from the key caps. It's a nightmare for anyone using my Mac but much easier for me who's had ~40 years of muscle memory. Not the keyboard hardware (so somewhat out of scope for this context) but it's also worth noting that there's some macOS keyboard shortcuts that differ in really confusing ways too. Like + Ctrl+C vs Cmd+C + Text area navigation on a Mac is totally different too. Home and End buttons behave differently. Ctrl+Arrow keys don't work. Shift+Arrow keys don't select. etc Every time I spend a few months in Linux and then switch to a Mac (or visa versa) I inevitably have a few days of pain relearning short cut keys.

Hamuko 4y ago
>The Mac keyboard layout is US-like, even on European models. Which means a bunch of keys are in different places from their European IBM counterparts (like @ and "). I just checked three external Apple keyboards, one integrated Apple Keyboard and a Logitech G15, and as far as I can tell, all of them have the @ and " in the same places.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  They do differ on the UK keyboards (examples below). Other keyboards for other European languages will differ in different ways (differ both from the UK layout and also from the US layout). UK Mac keyboard: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MMMR3B/A/magic-keyboard-with-touch-id-and-numeric-keypad-for-mac-models-with-apple-silicon-british-english-black-keys?fnode=128684b684e9520c37c3b8524ac050b9a97208600313a9b77f9e136b1854005da09fba8d18088cc2a010842ea66906080a21773f24b4372dfc9546c40739666d2459bd456df5c34f1767434a62ceac32dde26071511a9e5698a4f8483e1e1104d9ac100faa068b066d8b20bcb3abf561 https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MMMR3B/A/magic-keyboar... A random UK "IBM" keyboard: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultra-Classic-style-keyboard-Black/dp/B009PKF9WK https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ultra-Classic-style-keyboard-Black/...
pasc1878 4y ago
Much of that is not the keyboard but the OS So running Linux on an Apple keyboard will not have the last two issues. As for # in macOSdon't use a UK layout use Irish or Australian which are the same except for shift-3
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  > Much of that is not the keyboard but the OS So running Linux on an Apple keyboard will not have the last two issues. Only the last two items and I did prefix those items saying it was the OS so wouldn't be affected by running Linux. I'm not trying to deceive people here. > As for # in macOSdon't use a UK layout use Irish or Australian which are the same except for shift-3 ...or you can just redefine the keyboard layout, as I also stated in my comment (I assume you did actually read it?). None of the problems I raised were intended to be negative about Apple so you don't need to jump to the defence here. I'm just stating the differences between Mac and IBM/Microsoft keyboard layouts.
  - Macha 4y ago
    Sometimes Mac OS doesn't like to co-operate with "just change the keyboard layout": https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/255082/external-iso-keyboards-treated-as-ansi-since-macbook-pro-upgraded-to-macos-sierr https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/255082/external-is...
sgjohnson 4y ago
> The Mac keyboard layout is US-like This is absolutely false. European Mac keyboards are ISO. The labeling doesn’t matter, as rolling your own layout is trivial.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  Being ISO doesn't mean it's not "US-like". The UK layout, for example, does differ considerably between Macs and IBM, with the UK Mac layout being closer to a US layout than a UK IBM layout (examples posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304113). I couldn't give a crap if the UK Mac layout is an ISO standard or not because that doesn't magically change the way I use a keyboard. Furthermore I made the exact same point about redefining the layout. You claim to debunk my post yet go on to make literally the same points I did. In literally the same bullet point you're trying to debunk too! (I'd forgotten why I usually avoid commenting on Apple-based threads. Ever word is analysed and if it can be interpreted in even a remotely disparaging way by either your Apple or Linux fanboys, then they'll stop reading the entirety of your comment and pull that one phrase out with some terse rebuttal phrased as if the original poster was an idiot. Completely irrelevant of whether that rebuttal is actually just reiterating the OPs comment or even if the original comment, when read in full, was actually negative at all.
  - Twisell 4y ago
    Well actually you are both partially right and wrong. The French Apple layout is closer to the Windows layout than the Mac US version. But it is quite divergent from both US layout and french windows because it included localized typographic enhancements inherited from the 1980's. They basically localized differently on Windows and MacOs. There is another ISO international flavor of the Apple Keyboard that look closer to the US version but it never took traction in french market. I guess that even if switching from Win/Mac french layout require some time to rewire muscle memory it's still easier than to to opt for international layout. For instance on both Win/Mac fr by default numbered keys pad require shift to produce number while by default they are used for accentuations. PS: I have a mechanical Mac Intl ISO keyboard because I sometimes switch to US, but when writing in FR I still as of today use french layout using muscle memory What is actually ashaming from Apple is that oftentimes some dev oriented shortcuts (like Cmd + Shift + Period) have never been properly localized in macOS which is why using Intl keyboard help in some contexts (it fail because shift is already required to produce "Period" in classical french layout)
pizza234 4y ago
> + Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that As a curiosity, this is actually very useful for keyboard-only users. On X11 at least, context menu display is typically associated to Shift+F10. However, in some cases (I think the file panel in Sublime Text 3 was a notable case; not sure in v4), this binding doesn't work. Context menu key gives a binding that is guaranteed to work :)
mort96 4y ago
Every Norwegian Mac laptop keyboard has been physically identical to every Norwegian PC laptop keyboard I've used, with the exception of the label changes and the missing context menu key. And Mac keyboards have the Windows key, they just call it "command" instead of "Windows" or "super" but it's in the same place.
- wildrhythms 4y ago
  The Command key is not in the same place as the Windows key; the Command key neighbors the spacebar, whereas the Windows key is wedged between Alt and Ctrl.
  - mort96 4y ago
    Oh you're right. I use right cmd/right super so rarely that I never noticed, despite regularly using both types.
    - tekknik 4y ago
      It also doesn’t function the same, with the windows key being used mostly (only?) for global shortcuts like locking the machine.
zajio1am 4y ago
> Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that It is a convenient key to map compose key on.
vocram 4y ago
Text navigation works in the same way on Linux/mac using readline key bindings.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  Not sure what you're implying here. CLI applications? Because they'd obviously behave the same. The issues I've noticed are around desktop applications. For example if I select some text in KWrite (KDE's "Notepad") by using SHIFT+CTRL+LEFT_ARROW then it will select the word. If I do the equivalent in Notes (macOS) it will select the whole line, not just the word (I tested this just now too). This platform specific behavioural differences isn't something that's unique when comparing to KWrite vs Notes, I just picked those applications as an example. It also isn't just SHIFT+CTRL+LEFT_ARROW that differs. There's a quite a few subtle differences when using the keyboard to navigate around text areas. None of them significant but they're always enough to break my concentration when trying to get stuff done. A lot of these can be redefined. Both on Linux and on macOS though. So you can absolutely make the two platforms behave the same way, given enough time and motivation. So we are just talking about defaults here.
  - Gracana 4y ago
    Text entry fields in mac programs accept emacs mode ctrl combos. c-a, e, u etc.
    - hnlmorg 4y ago
      I just tried that in 3 different applications: Finder (search bar), Notes, and Slack (just in case it was an Electron specific behaviour). I couldn't get those readline/emacs bindings to work on either. This is a brand new MacBook Pro with all the defaults for the UK region so it's definitely not something I've (knowingly) disabled. Is this something that needs to be enabled? Or is it dependant on something else to work? It's definitely a feature I'd welcome.
      - Gracana 4y ago
sharikous 4y ago
> The Mac keyboard layout is US-like In Israel we have the option of choosing Macs with US layout or keyboard layout. What changes is mainly the enter key on two rows of the European models, the character "`", and the characters next to the shift keys.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  Indeed, that's my point. What you've described (Mac US vs Mac UK) less significant than comparing a UK Mac and a UK IBM keyboard. I'm not suggesting that a UK Mac keyboard is "the same" as a US Mac. Just that for someone used to a UK IBM keyboard, a UK Mac keyboard will feel different (and visa versa for Mac users switching to IBM keyboards).
tekknik 4y ago
> macOS keyboard shortcuts that differ in really confusing ways too. Like + Ctrl+C vs Cmd+C + Text area navigation on a Mac is totally different too. Home and End buttons behave differently. Ctrl+Arrow keys don't work. Shift+Arrow keys don't select. etc Cmd+C is actually more comfortable to me, as you use your thumb instead of pinky. My pinky is always fatigued after using a Win/Lin machine. Shift + Arrow keys do select text, you must have something configured differently. I don't remember what Ctrl + Arrow keys does on Win/Lin, assuming it's word boundaries that is Option + Arrow keys. Overall my experience with Apple keyboard shortcuts is much more positive than on Window and Linux. On Windows it feels like they've run out of modifier keys due to locking the Windows key behind windows specific features, and Linux mostly just copied windows.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  > Cmd+C is actually more comfortable to me, as you use your thumb instead of pinky. My pinky is always fatigued after using a Win/Lin machine. I'd say they're the same in terms of comfort but I do appreciate CMD+C when working in the terminal. > Shift + Arrow keys do select text, you must have something configured differently. They select text differently. I went into more details about the differences there in a different post on this same thread. > Overall my experience with Apple keyboard shortcuts is much more positive than on Window and Linux. On Windows it feels like they've run out of modifier keys due to locking the Windows key behind windows specific features, and Linux mostly just copied windows. I think it's 100% down to whatever is muscle memory. I've you're more familiar with the Mac shortcuts then you'll prefer that, and likewise for the Windows/Linux shortcuts. Saying one is better than the other is rather silly when it's entirely down to whatever you've committed to muscle memory. Hence why my point wasn't about preference but rather just pointing out that there are differences one has to adapt to when switching from one platform to another (whichever direction that switch might be).
  - tekknik 4y ago
    > Hence why my point wasn't about preference but rather just pointing out that there are differences one has to adapt to when switching from one platform to another (whichever direction that switch might be). Think about this from the high level, it’s obvious yes? Why did you write an essay on “Windows, Linux, and Mac key shortcuts are different” and then “it’s clearly subjective” These are obvious statements.