7 ms·

I'm not surprised. Both Wayland and GNOME are pushed by Red Hat.

thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
Red Hat has been slowly becoming more like Microsoft used to be. I have to use RHEL at work and since RHEL 8 the desktop experience is just painful: GNOME 3 is the only desktop offered. Our IT team hates third-party repos, so EPEL and any chance at an alternative are right out. I tried to use GNOME 3, but I really do not understand what the designers were thinking and how they intend for it to work. How do I minimize a window that I do not want in the foreground? There are no buttons that seem to do this without using tweaks or extensions. When using two or more monitors, why does only one monitor switch to a different virtual desktop while the other does not? Trying to use GNOME 3 is frustrating and I would rather use pratically anything else (Windows, MacOS, KDE, CDE, Xfce, WindowMaker, Blackbox, Fluxbox, etc.) because at least they would follow some of the last 40 years of desktop environment conventions that GNOME 3 seems to have completely discarded.
- ricktdotorg 4y ago
  agree re: many of your gripes, but specifically re: > How do I minimize a window that I do not want in the foreground? i use Alt+X for this, mapped via Settings --> Keyboard --> Shortcuts --> Windows --> Hide Window
  - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
    Ok, but how do you do it with the mouse? This is GNOME, not ratposion WM (https://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/ https://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/). There should be a way to minimize using the mouse.
    - d_tr 4y ago
      Don't windows in GNOME have a minimize button by default? And then you use the overview to bring the window back if you want? Am I missing something?
      - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
        >> Don't windows in GNOME have a minimize button by default? And then you use the overview to bring the window back if you want? Am I missing something? No. By default there are no maximize and minimize buttons. They were explicitly removed: https://digitizor.com/gnome-3-maximize-minimize-buttons/ https://digitizor.com/gnome-3-maximize-minimize-buttons/ You can add them back with gsettings changes or "tweaks": https://trendoceans.com/how-to-get-minimize-and-maximize-button-in-gnome/ https://trendoceans.com/how-to-get-minimize-and-maximize-but...
    - imtringued 4y ago
      You right click on the title bar like windows.
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  > IT team hates third-party repos Make sure an allocation of your frustration is pointed at this. Gnome tweaks should be a default package. Is it not in an accessible repo for RHEL? I just switched from Pop OS to Fedora 36 on my laptop and am getting the hang of pure GNOME 3 quickly. Other than Guale not working for some reason, Vivaldi and terminal and python run just fine. Hotkeys are abundant.
  - 3836293648 4y ago
    Tweaks shouldn't exist and it should all be in control centre
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      Agreed, really. Doing things like modifying system fonts should not be an obscure setting.
  - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
    >> Make sure an allocation of your frustration is pointed at this. Agreed, but I have little control over IT policies. Third-party repos are strictly prohibited unless there is a compelling reason and they are blessed by IT. >> Gnome tweaks should be a default package. Is it not in an accessible repo for RHEL? Tweaks help, but it is still terrible compared to the customizations that GNOME 2 offered "in the box".
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    *Guake - I can't edit my comment.
- sph 4y ago
  Red Hat are like Microsoft because their enterprise distro offers only one desktop? Alright. I guess macOS is Microsoft as well under that definition. Without discussing the merits of GNOME vs others, is your company prepared to pay twice for the RHEL license if they provide official support for both GNOME and KDE? Supporting more environments doesn't come for free.
  - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
    >> Red Hat are like Microsoft because their enterprise distro offers only one desktop? Alright. I guess macOS is Microsoft as well under that definition. No, Red Hat is like Microsoft because they made the same mistakes with GNOME 3 that Microsoft made with Windows 8--they gave designers free reign to do whatever they wanted and did not listen to user feedback. The changes from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 were jarring enough for many users to abandon it (https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4-to-be-a-total-user-experience-design-failure/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4...) and for the MATE fork of GNOME 2. Forcing those jarring changes on all users was a mistake: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155-27.html https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-revie... https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8kn9t4/why_does_gnome_3_get_so_much_hate/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8kn9t4/why_does_gnom... https://www.datamation.com/open-source/the-gnome-3-meltdown/ https://www.datamation.com/open-source/the-gnome-3-meltdown/ https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-hate-GNOME-3?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-hate-GNOME-3?sha... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16869157 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16869157 >> Without discussing the merits of GNOME vs others, is your company prepared to pay twice for the RHEL license if they provide official support for both GNOME and KDE? Supporting more environments doesn't come for free. Probably not, but given the choice I would select KDE over GNOME 3 simply because it offers a more customizable user experience that does not require "tweaks" and "extensions" to get the desktop setup that some users want. What's next? Removing Emacs and Vim and only offering GNOME Text Editor? Supporting more text editors doesn't come for free.
thrillgore 4y ago
I stopped actively using GNOME long before 3.x was an idea. Xfce has remained consistent, performant, and beautiful. GNOME has become a victim of mismanagement, trends, and monoculture. Remember that Ubuntu spurned GNOME for a long time because they had their own monoculture issues.

Red Hat has been slowly becoming more like Microsoft used to be. I have to use RHEL at work and since RHEL 8 the desktop experience is just painful: GNOME 3 is the only desktop offered. Our IT team hates third-party repos, so EPEL and any chance at an alternative are right out. I tried to use GNOME 3, but I really do not understand what the designers were thinking and how they intend for it to work. How do I minimize a window that I do not want in the foreground? There are no buttons that seem to do this without using tweaks or extensions. When using two or more monitors, why does only one monitor switch to a different virtual desktop while the other does not? Trying to use GNOME 3 is frustrating and I would rather use pratically anything else (Windows, MacOS, KDE, CDE, Xfce, WindowMaker, Blackbox, Fluxbox, etc.) because at least they would follow some of the last 40 years of desktop environment conventions that GNOME 3 seems to have completely discarded.

ricktdotorg 4y ago
agree re: many of your gripes, but specifically re: > How do I minimize a window that I do not want in the foreground? i use Alt+X for this, mapped via Settings --> Keyboard --> Shortcuts --> Windows --> Hide Window
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  Ok, but how do you do it with the mouse? This is GNOME, not ratposion WM (https://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/ https://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/). There should be a way to minimize using the mouse.
  - d_tr 4y ago
    Don't windows in GNOME have a minimize button by default? And then you use the overview to bring the window back if you want? Am I missing something?
    - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
      >> Don't windows in GNOME have a minimize button by default? And then you use the overview to bring the window back if you want? Am I missing something? No. By default there are no maximize and minimize buttons. They were explicitly removed: https://digitizor.com/gnome-3-maximize-minimize-buttons/ https://digitizor.com/gnome-3-maximize-minimize-buttons/ You can add them back with gsettings changes or "tweaks": https://trendoceans.com/how-to-get-minimize-and-maximize-button-in-gnome/ https://trendoceans.com/how-to-get-minimize-and-maximize-but...
  - imtringued 4y ago
    You right click on the title bar like windows.
unethical_ban 4y ago
> IT team hates third-party repos Make sure an allocation of your frustration is pointed at this. Gnome tweaks should be a default package. Is it not in an accessible repo for RHEL? I just switched from Pop OS to Fedora 36 on my laptop and am getting the hang of pure GNOME 3 quickly. Other than Guale not working for some reason, Vivaldi and terminal and python run just fine. Hotkeys are abundant.
- 3836293648 4y ago
  Tweaks shouldn't exist and it should all be in control centre
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    Agreed, really. Doing things like modifying system fonts should not be an obscure setting.
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  >> Make sure an allocation of your frustration is pointed at this. Agreed, but I have little control over IT policies. Third-party repos are strictly prohibited unless there is a compelling reason and they are blessed by IT. >> Gnome tweaks should be a default package. Is it not in an accessible repo for RHEL? Tweaks help, but it is still terrible compared to the customizations that GNOME 2 offered "in the box".
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  *Guake - I can't edit my comment.
sph 4y ago
Red Hat are like Microsoft because their enterprise distro offers only one desktop? Alright. I guess macOS is Microsoft as well under that definition. Without discussing the merits of GNOME vs others, is your company prepared to pay twice for the RHEL license if they provide official support for both GNOME and KDE? Supporting more environments doesn't come for free.
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  >> Red Hat are like Microsoft because their enterprise distro offers only one desktop? Alright. I guess macOS is Microsoft as well under that definition. No, Red Hat is like Microsoft because they made the same mistakes with GNOME 3 that Microsoft made with Windows 8--they gave designers free reign to do whatever they wanted and did not listen to user feedback. The changes from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 were jarring enough for many users to abandon it (https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4-to-be-a-total-user-experience-design-failure/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4...) and for the MATE fork of GNOME 2. Forcing those jarring changes on all users was a mistake: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155-27.html https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-revie... https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8kn9t4/why_does_gnome_3_get_so_much_hate/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8kn9t4/why_does_gnom... https://www.datamation.com/open-source/the-gnome-3-meltdown/ https://www.datamation.com/open-source/the-gnome-3-meltdown/ https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-hate-GNOME-3?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-hate-GNOME-3?sha... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16869157 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16869157 >> Without discussing the merits of GNOME vs others, is your company prepared to pay twice for the RHEL license if they provide official support for both GNOME and KDE? Supporting more environments doesn't come for free. Probably not, but given the choice I would select KDE over GNOME 3 simply because it offers a more customizable user experience that does not require "tweaks" and "extensions" to get the desktop setup that some users want. What's next? Removing Emacs and Vim and only offering GNOME Text Editor? Supporting more text editors doesn't come for free.

thrillgore 4y ago

I stopped actively using GNOME long before 3.x was an idea. Xfce has remained consistent, performant, and beautiful. GNOME has become a victim of mismanagement, trends, and monoculture. Remember that Ubuntu spurned GNOME for a long time because they had their own monoculture issues.