8 ms·

Botanists are disappearing – just when the world needs them most

91 points by susiecambria 4y ago

cbanek 4y ago
I feel like part of this is a lack of gardening. I used to love gardening and watching plants grow as a child in my grandmother's garden. Carrots, beets, berries, onions, etc. All pretty easy, as long as you aren't worried about having too many! Even though I don't have a lot of knowledge about plants, I do certainly have more of an appreciation. I was just looking at a house yesterday and spied a garden growing in the side yard and remarked I think those are onions! Of course the agent had no idea apparently what an onion plant looks like, which kind of surprised me. But then after a bit, it also didn't surprise me! Of course I have to mention the amazing and great youtube channel "Crime pays but botany doesn't", here's a neat recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThU0SUcf6Ws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThU0SUcf6Ws
- NCC1701DEngage 4y ago
  Here is an interesting channel doing predatory plants: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1nQ1UONnucPttZ96w8Jk4A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1nQ1UONnucPttZ96w8Jk4A
  - cbanek 4y ago
    Love this, subbed to that one! <3
- progre 4y ago
  For a nice way to start discovering plants around you I recommend the excellent iNaturalist app/site: See a plant, snap a photo and the app will suggest what it thinks it is. Other users can help with identification if the app fails. Besides beeing a kind of nerdy pokemon go (how many organisms can you collect?) it's also crowd-sourced science. My latest catch is this guy: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/62060-Palomena-prasina https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/62060-Palomena-prasina
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    The iPhone photos app does something similar if you take a photo of a plant and click the “i” info button.
    - brnt 4y ago
      What's fun of I naturalist is that with someone confirming your ID (or two others agreeing) your observation is included in a variety of databases used by researchers. It's fun to help out in a low key way.
- brnt 4y ago
  In my country (NL) stonyfication of garden is a real problem. Apart from looking like shit, the loss of seasonal flowering plants and water absorption in the soil are becoming major problems. There's peer pressure too: a neighbour is angry because leaves get stuck on our bushes and blow onto her gravel. People rave about being able to vacuum their garden. It's insane. Terrace tax can't come soon enough.
adenozine 4y ago
Then raise the wages, and raise the budgets for that research. Do people that write this drivel think college students read it? And even if they did, do they think the students will just turn their lives around into doing something else just because someone online is complaining about not enough people doing it? I think these pieces miss a crucial point about skepticism. In a highly competitive capitalist landscape, if there’s not a lot of people entering then it’s safe to assume there’s a good enough reason. Without googling, I’d be willing to bet there’s fewer people becoming librarians lately, and fewer becoming actuaries, etc. These jobs are often passion-related and I think collectively the young people are realizing that following your passion leads to an increased risk of poverty and hardship. The last time I heard someone talk about botany was when *I* was in college several decades ago. Back then, there wasn’t people around me talking about machine learning very much either but that’s probably half of what I hear recent graduates in my industry talking about.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  This is exactly the issue, but the solution will not be easy. Over the past 25 years some careers have become exponentially more lucrative, with much less risk, than other careers, even though they require and use the same skill set. A data scientist working for a big tech company is making gobs more than a botany post-doc, even though their skills and required education are similar. Back 25-30 years ago, the chasm in pay wasn't as wide, and that was because pre-Internet (or pre-widely utilized Internet I should say), software just wasn't as lucrative. Now, though, I think you're seeing lots of challenges hiring in many professions because tech has become so monstrously dominant. You can say "just pay these folks more", but the money has to come from somewhere, and when big tech can easily afford 300k plus salaries for a position where other industries can't afford half that, it's difficult to see how this will improve.
  - scottLobster 4y ago
    It's not just a matter of salaries and funding, the economic environment has changed a lot in the few decades. Individual incomes don't go as far as they used to, inflation is through the roof. Even the high paying jobs are suffering, they just have further to fall. The jobs that were on the margin (like Botany probably) have been pushed over the economic cliff and are no longer viable given the cost of entry. We need a fundamental reassessment of science funding and our economic priorities, sadly I imagine things will have to get a lot worse before that conversation happens, and frankly the people who got us into this mess have to leave office/die off, as a class they've proven unwilling/unable to adapt to uncomfortable realities.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
swayvil 4y ago
My mom got her degree in botany. Couldn't find a job. Switched to software design.
- woweoe 4y ago
  Was that recently or many years ago?
- agumonkey 4y ago
  It's ripe for having a bio-bota-computing fad.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  My ex went from botany to library science (to become a research librarian for botanists/agriculture) to bioinformatics. So it's possible to go in a similar direction while still leveraging the botany degree, at least.
_bfhp 4y ago
> Most people suffer from what is commonly known as “plant blindness”, a term coined by US botanists Elisabeth Schussler and James Wandersee. They described it as “the inability to see or notice the plants in one’s own environment”. Unless taught, people don’t tend to see plants – despite the fact that at any given moment, there is likely to be a plant – or something made by plants – nearby. But there are also proteins nearby -- isn't it worrying how people don't notice those too? With COVID and monkeypox raging around the world, isn't "protein blindness" an even more dire issue? I think the author might be suffering from "protein-blindness blindness," a term coined by US biochemists Elisabeth Simoneer and James Widdershins. In our recent study...
- lurquer 4y ago
  The “environment” for most people is urban. I would bet ‘plant awareness’ tracks pretty well with rural vs urban demographics. That’s not to say rural population somehow magically have built-in knowledge as to the botanical science; they don’t and eduction need to improve across the board. Yet I sometimes feel that these articles are written by urbanites interviewing other urbanites and making sweeping generalizations about ‘our’ view of the world.
  - _bfhp 4y ago
    My point was that framing the problem as an individual pathology that afflicts at random rather than a cultural, communal sickness inevitable under capitalism is absolutely absurd
carrozo 4y ago
Can anyone recommend online courses in botany?
- znpy 4y ago
  I just couldn’t find anything really worth. Not on youtube, not on udemy or platforms like that. So far I’m reading “botany for gardeners” and it’s a noce book, easy to read and to follow. Which is nice, because I wanted something akin to an introduction to botany for people who are not enrolled in an university.
  - contingencies 4y ago
    Despite a long-term fascination with botany and medicine, finishing high school I didn't feel that stressing myself to try to get in to medicine was a smart idea. Came back to it a few years ago during COVID and learned with some supportive PhDs at a local plant study group. I'm still firmly at the beginner-intermediate stage but have greatly enjoyed iNaturalist and rediscovering microscopy (the industrial camera based digital microscopes are awesome and can output HDMI directly). Despite being busy with work I've already spotted many endangered species, some of them are the first identifications. I do regret that I had not studied more earlier, as it really adds great interest and depth to exploring new environments during travel. When trying to learn any new discipline, I recommend this strategy. First, identify some competent world-class universities. Second, search for their related programs. Third, obtain a list of textbooks for those courses. Finally, obtain said textbooks (eg. LibGen). However, if you are feeling lazy just search the topic directly (but be sure to use the scientific title) and then order descending by year. Any textbook with three or more editions is probably well regarded. This method would recommend: ISE Stern's Introductory Plant Biology (15th edition), Botany: An Introduction to Plant Biology (6th edition), Botany for gardeners (3rd edition), Botany in a Day: The Patterns Method of Plant Identification (6th edition), Laboratory Topics in Botany (8th edition).
status200 4y ago
I am a researcher / explorer of Arecaceae species and pay the bills with cybersecurity work, this article definitely struck a chord. It is very difficult to get anyone to care about even the rare and beautiful species these days, let alone help the efforts in conservation. I am working on a website that helps links people wanting to help learn and protect forests with the people with the background knowledge and those who are getting their fingers in the dirt, please reach out if you are interested in participating.
- im3w1l 4y ago
  I know this is unsatisfying, but I suspect that our approach to conservation will soon be "remember to slap the genome on S3 before turning their habitat into farmland". Nature is gradually turning into a luxury we cannot afford.
  - dunefox 4y ago
    > Nature is gradually turning into a luxury we cannot afford. That makes no sense. We need nature more than ever.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - im3w1l 4y ago
      There are more people than ever. That want to eat farmed food. Drive on roads. And live in houses. All of this takes land. Then there is the renewable energy production that needs land too. Rivers valleys turn into hydro dams. Grass fields into solar fields.
      - adrianN 4y ago
        Renewable energy production takes a minuscule amount of land compared to agriculture, and a lot of that land can be things like parking lots and roofs.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
There is no shortage of botanists, they just have biology or other degrees. I know perhaps a dozen people who can walk into an environment and name all the plants, their origins, and growth behavior. I know companies that employ dozens and dozens of them. They just don't have botany degrees. The way academia and the job market is set up, it simply doesn't make sense to get a highly specialized degree when most of the botanical knowledge can be picked up on the job and further enhanced once you settle into that career.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  Exactly. I personally know several people in this line of work and none are botanists, but are instead organic chemists, geneticists, scientists of various types. The work companies are looking to do with plants requires those areas of expertise. It's like engineering. Lockheed Martin and Boeing don't hire "airplanasists", they hire engineers and scientists that do the things they need to to to build a plane. The airplane part they learn in the job, the building blocks are science. Yes, there are aerospace engineering programs so this analogy only goes so far.
  - anonymousDan 4y ago
    Can you expand on the types of jobs they are doing? My brother in law is a skilled botanist (runs a botanical garden), but the pay in his line of work is pretty appalling (although ok for him now he has finally climbed the tree a bit as it were).
    - iancmceachern 4y ago
      It's like plant science stuff for companies like Bayer and Monsanto. Check out UC Davis and all the stuff they do. They have a whole college dedicated to wineaking, grape growing, etc. Same with olives. Basically large Ag companies and their research partnerships with famous universities in the space.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      Environmental remediation, habit restoration, pesticide applications, and agriculture would be a few
sedachv 4y ago
The paradox is this is at a time when the population has never been more numerous and the economy more prosperous. There should be more specialists in all kinds of areas, not fewer. Instead capitalism is reducing people's horizons and impoverishing their choices of vocation and lifestyle, destroying the landbase while simultaneously driving the people that try to maintain the landbase and natural systems out of work, and in many cases into prison slave labor. It is a self-destructive cycle steering us into civilizational collapse.
- dunefox 4y ago
  But think of the beautiful revenue we can generate for all the shareholders. Will nobody think of the investors?
- hombre_fatal 4y ago
  > Instead capitalism is reducing people's horizons and impoverishing their choices of vocation and lifestyle Compared to what?
- adrianN 4y ago
  I would be surprised if we had fewer specialists, either in absolute numbers or in relative numbers. The fields of specialization might have changed over time. Maybe many people who would've become botanists a hundred years ago now are geneticists or something like that.
  - sedachv 4y ago
    From the article: "It has been over a decade since a student was enrolled in a botany degree in the UK." Botany is a very different specialty than genetics.
amelius 4y ago
But nowadays we have smartphone apps that you can point at a plant and it will give you its place in the phylogenetic tree.
NoblePublius 4y ago
Reminds me of the fact that American universities graduate literally double the number of petroleum engineers each year than ecologists
Lev1a 4y ago
If that title isn't a cheeky reference to "Avatar: The Last Airbender"s opening sequence, I don't know what's real anymore. Title : "Botanists are disappearing - just when the world needs them most" Avatar (IIRC): "[...] but when the world needed him most, he vanished [...]"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pvaldes 4y ago
... in UK
pvaldes 4y ago
Meanwhile my Caladiums are growing nicely
aaron695 4y ago
panick21_ 4y ago
They should recruit on Mars. I hear they have some good Botanists there.
- LilBytes 4y ago
  The talent market for Botanists was very briefly completely saturated on Mars.

91 points by susiecambria 4y ago

I feel like part of this is a lack of gardening. I used to love gardening and watching plants grow as a child in my grandmother's garden. Carrots, beets, berries, onions, etc. All pretty easy, as long as you aren't worried about having too many! Even though I don't have a lot of knowledge about plants, I do certainly have more of an appreciation. I was just looking at a house yesterday and spied a garden growing in the side yard and remarked I think those are onions! Of course the agent had no idea apparently what an onion plant looks like, which kind of surprised me. But then after a bit, it also didn't surprise me! Of course I have to mention the amazing and great youtube channel "Crime pays but botany doesn't", here's a neat recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThU0SUcf6Ws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThU0SUcf6Ws

NCC1701DEngage 4y ago
Here is an interesting channel doing predatory plants: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1nQ1UONnucPttZ96w8Jk4A https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1nQ1UONnucPttZ96w8Jk4A
- cbanek 4y ago
  Love this, subbed to that one! <3
progre 4y ago
For a nice way to start discovering plants around you I recommend the excellent iNaturalist app/site: See a plant, snap a photo and the app will suggest what it thinks it is. Other users can help with identification if the app fails. Besides beeing a kind of nerdy pokemon go (how many organisms can you collect?) it's also crowd-sourced science. My latest catch is this guy: https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/62060-Palomena-prasina https://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/62060-Palomena-prasina
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  The iPhone photos app does something similar if you take a photo of a plant and click the “i” info button.
  - brnt 4y ago
    What's fun of I naturalist is that with someone confirming your ID (or two others agreeing) your observation is included in a variety of databases used by researchers. It's fun to help out in a low key way.
brnt 4y ago
In my country (NL) stonyfication of garden is a real problem. Apart from looking like shit, the loss of seasonal flowering plants and water absorption in the soil are becoming major problems. There's peer pressure too: a neighbour is angry because leaves get stuck on our bushes and blow onto her gravel. People rave about being able to vacuum their garden. It's insane. Terrace tax can't come soon enough.

adenozine 4y ago

Then raise the wages, and raise the budgets for that research. Do people that write this drivel think college students read it? And even if they did, do they think the students will just turn their lives around into doing something else just because someone online is complaining about not enough people doing it? I think these pieces miss a crucial point about skepticism. In a highly competitive capitalist landscape, if there’s not a lot of people entering then it’s safe to assume there’s a good enough reason. Without googling, I’d be willing to bet there’s fewer people becoming librarians lately, and fewer becoming actuaries, etc. These jobs are often passion-related and I think collectively the young people are realizing that following your passion leads to an increased risk of poverty and hardship. The last time I heard someone talk about botany was when *I* was in college several decades ago. Back then, there wasn’t people around me talking about machine learning very much either but that’s probably half of what I hear recent graduates in my industry talking about.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
This is exactly the issue, but the solution will not be easy. Over the past 25 years some careers have become exponentially more lucrative, with much less risk, than other careers, even though they require and use the same skill set. A data scientist working for a big tech company is making gobs more than a botany post-doc, even though their skills and required education are similar. Back 25-30 years ago, the chasm in pay wasn't as wide, and that was because pre-Internet (or pre-widely utilized Internet I should say), software just wasn't as lucrative. Now, though, I think you're seeing lots of challenges hiring in many professions because tech has become so monstrously dominant. You can say "just pay these folks more", but the money has to come from somewhere, and when big tech can easily afford 300k plus salaries for a position where other industries can't afford half that, it's difficult to see how this will improve.
- scottLobster 4y ago
  It's not just a matter of salaries and funding, the economic environment has changed a lot in the few decades. Individual incomes don't go as far as they used to, inflation is through the roof. Even the high paying jobs are suffering, they just have further to fall. The jobs that were on the margin (like Botany probably) have been pushed over the economic cliff and are no longer viable given the cost of entry. We need a fundamental reassessment of science funding and our economic priorities, sadly I imagine things will have to get a lot worse before that conversation happens, and frankly the people who got us into this mess have to leave office/die off, as a class they've proven unwilling/unable to adapt to uncomfortable realities.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

swayvil 4y ago

My mom got her degree in botany. Couldn't find a job. Switched to software design.

woweoe 4y ago
Was that recently or many years ago?
agumonkey 4y ago
It's ripe for having a bio-bota-computing fad.
pessimizer 4y ago
My ex went from botany to library science (to become a research librarian for botanists/agriculture) to bioinformatics. So it's possible to go in a similar direction while still leveraging the botany degree, at least.

_bfhp 4y ago

> Most people suffer from what is commonly known as “plant blindness”, a term coined by US botanists Elisabeth Schussler and James Wandersee. They described it as “the inability to see or notice the plants in one’s own environment”. Unless taught, people don’t tend to see plants – despite the fact that at any given moment, there is likely to be a plant – or something made by plants – nearby. But there are also proteins nearby -- isn't it worrying how people don't notice those too? With COVID and monkeypox raging around the world, isn't "protein blindness" an even more dire issue? I think the author might be suffering from "protein-blindness blindness," a term coined by US biochemists Elisabeth Simoneer and James Widdershins. In our recent study...

lurquer 4y ago
The “environment” for most people is urban. I would bet ‘plant awareness’ tracks pretty well with rural vs urban demographics. That’s not to say rural population somehow magically have built-in knowledge as to the botanical science; they don’t and eduction need to improve across the board. Yet I sometimes feel that these articles are written by urbanites interviewing other urbanites and making sweeping generalizations about ‘our’ view of the world.
- _bfhp 4y ago
  My point was that framing the problem as an individual pathology that afflicts at random rather than a cultural, communal sickness inevitable under capitalism is absolutely absurd

carrozo 4y ago

Can anyone recommend online courses in botany?

znpy 4y ago
I just couldn’t find anything really worth. Not on youtube, not on udemy or platforms like that. So far I’m reading “botany for gardeners” and it’s a noce book, easy to read and to follow. Which is nice, because I wanted something akin to an introduction to botany for people who are not enrolled in an university.
- contingencies 4y ago
  Despite a long-term fascination with botany and medicine, finishing high school I didn't feel that stressing myself to try to get in to medicine was a smart idea. Came back to it a few years ago during COVID and learned with some supportive PhDs at a local plant study group. I'm still firmly at the beginner-intermediate stage but have greatly enjoyed iNaturalist and rediscovering microscopy (the industrial camera based digital microscopes are awesome and can output HDMI directly). Despite being busy with work I've already spotted many endangered species, some of them are the first identifications. I do regret that I had not studied more earlier, as it really adds great interest and depth to exploring new environments during travel. When trying to learn any new discipline, I recommend this strategy. First, identify some competent world-class universities. Second, search for their related programs. Third, obtain a list of textbooks for those courses. Finally, obtain said textbooks (eg. LibGen). However, if you are feeling lazy just search the topic directly (but be sure to use the scientific title) and then order descending by year. Any textbook with three or more editions is probably well regarded. This method would recommend: ISE Stern's Introductory Plant Biology (15th edition), Botany: An Introduction to Plant Biology (6th edition), Botany for gardeners (3rd edition), Botany in a Day: The Patterns Method of Plant Identification (6th edition), Laboratory Topics in Botany (8th edition).

status200 4y ago

I am a researcher / explorer of Arecaceae species and pay the bills with cybersecurity work, this article definitely struck a chord. It is very difficult to get anyone to care about even the rare and beautiful species these days, let alone help the efforts in conservation. I am working on a website that helps links people wanting to help learn and protect forests with the people with the background knowledge and those who are getting their fingers in the dirt, please reach out if you are interested in participating.

im3w1l 4y ago
I know this is unsatisfying, but I suspect that our approach to conservation will soon be "remember to slap the genome on S3 before turning their habitat into farmland". Nature is gradually turning into a luxury we cannot afford.
- dunefox 4y ago
  > Nature is gradually turning into a luxury we cannot afford. That makes no sense. We need nature more than ever.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - im3w1l 4y ago
    There are more people than ever. That want to eat farmed food. Drive on roads. And live in houses. All of this takes land. Then there is the renewable energy production that needs land too. Rivers valleys turn into hydro dams. Grass fields into solar fields.
    - adrianN 4y ago
      Renewable energy production takes a minuscule amount of land compared to agriculture, and a lot of that land can be things like parking lots and roofs.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

There is no shortage of botanists, they just have biology or other degrees. I know perhaps a dozen people who can walk into an environment and name all the plants, their origins, and growth behavior. I know companies that employ dozens and dozens of them. They just don't have botany degrees. The way academia and the job market is set up, it simply doesn't make sense to get a highly specialized degree when most of the botanical knowledge can be picked up on the job and further enhanced once you settle into that career.

iancmceachern 4y ago
Exactly. I personally know several people in this line of work and none are botanists, but are instead organic chemists, geneticists, scientists of various types. The work companies are looking to do with plants requires those areas of expertise. It's like engineering. Lockheed Martin and Boeing don't hire "airplanasists", they hire engineers and scientists that do the things they need to to to build a plane. The airplane part they learn in the job, the building blocks are science. Yes, there are aerospace engineering programs so this analogy only goes so far.
- anonymousDan 4y ago
  Can you expand on the types of jobs they are doing? My brother in law is a skilled botanist (runs a botanical garden), but the pay in his line of work is pretty appalling (although ok for him now he has finally climbed the tree a bit as it were).
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    It's like plant science stuff for companies like Bayer and Monsanto. Check out UC Davis and all the stuff they do. They have a whole college dedicated to wineaking, grape growing, etc. Same with olives. Basically large Ag companies and their research partnerships with famous universities in the space.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Environmental remediation, habit restoration, pesticide applications, and agriculture would be a few

sedachv 4y ago

The paradox is this is at a time when the population has never been more numerous and the economy more prosperous. There should be more specialists in all kinds of areas, not fewer. Instead capitalism is reducing people's horizons and impoverishing their choices of vocation and lifestyle, destroying the landbase while simultaneously driving the people that try to maintain the landbase and natural systems out of work, and in many cases into prison slave labor. It is a self-destructive cycle steering us into civilizational collapse.

dunefox 4y ago
But think of the beautiful revenue we can generate for all the shareholders. Will nobody think of the investors?
hombre_fatal 4y ago
> Instead capitalism is reducing people's horizons and impoverishing their choices of vocation and lifestyle Compared to what?
adrianN 4y ago
I would be surprised if we had fewer specialists, either in absolute numbers or in relative numbers. The fields of specialization might have changed over time. Maybe many people who would've become botanists a hundred years ago now are geneticists or something like that.
- sedachv 4y ago
  From the article: "It has been over a decade since a student was enrolled in a botany degree in the UK." Botany is a very different specialty than genetics.

amelius 4y ago

But nowadays we have smartphone apps that you can point at a plant and it will give you its place in the phylogenetic tree.

NoblePublius 4y ago

Reminds me of the fact that American universities graduate literally double the number of petroleum engineers each year than ecologists

Lev1a 4y ago

If that title isn't a cheeky reference to "Avatar: The Last Airbender"s opening sequence, I don't know what's real anymore. Title : "Botanists are disappearing - just when the world needs them most" Avatar (IIRC): "[...] but when the world needed him most, he vanished [...]"

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pvaldes 4y ago

... in UK

pvaldes 4y ago

Meanwhile my Caladiums are growing nicely

aaron695 4y ago

panick21_ 4y ago

They should recruit on Mars. I hear they have some good Botanists there.

LilBytes 4y ago
The talent market for Botanists was very briefly completely saturated on Mars.