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What I'm most curious about is what keeps the demand for drugs in the US so high? If the demand dropped off, so would the supply, prices, and number of criminal

What I'm most curious about is what keeps the demand for drugs in the US so high? If the demand dropped off, so would the supply, prices, and number of criminals. I recognize that I'm a deviant on the other side - I abstain from drugs, alcohol, and smoking. A bias for optimum brain, liver, and lung capacity/health seems like the rational choice. So why do so many forgo that? More pointedly, why do more Americans forgo that than citizens in other countries? My hunch is pop cultural influences (is there an episode of Entourage or How To Make It In America where someone doesn't use?), but a root cause analysis would be nice. Maybe it's related to per capita GDP? Education? Economic divide?

fleitz 15y ago
Its fruit of the forbidden tree. Look at drinking, North America is one of the few places where binge drinking has large appeal. Creating a banned books like is creating a reading list. Simply by making something illegal you give it appeal. Once legal most people realize that whatever it is that was banned is actually pretty boring.
- dfc 15y ago
  The US is not a big drinking country per capita: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_co... What is your evidence for your binge drinking statement? And what is your definition of binge drinking and large appeal.
  - chimeracoder 15y ago
    I'll just point out that your chart, while relevant, doesn't necessarily disprove the original statement. Binge drinking is defined as a certain number of drinks in one night (four for women and five for men, I believe). It's possible that other countries drink more, but they spread it out, so they end up binge drinking less often.
    - dfc 15y ago
      There are all sorts of way to do the math. The issue is that he made a statement with zero factual support.
  - woodpanel 15y ago
    I'd like to know that too. But for the record: "Alcohol Consumption per Capita" does not tell us HOW alcohol is consumed (I can drink 1-2 bottles of beer 7 days a week, or binge drink on weekends). To me "Binge Drinking" implies an aim towards delirium. EDIT: According to the telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7616405/Britain-is-the-binge-drinking-capital-of-Europe.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7616405/Britain...) a research (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_272b_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_272b_en....) found that the EU countries that drank the least also drank the most frequently. While relatively absent countries like Britain and Scandinavia tend to drink more at one sitting.
  - fleitz 15y ago
    The evidence is personal experience. I'm not trying to publish a peer reviewed article, just convey personal experience that may be insightful to others as to why things appeal to people. If you'd like to run a study to falsify my hypothesis you're welcome to, posting vaguely relevant stats is not such a falsification if you want to go all theory of knowledge on my statement. It's the idea that to a large segment of the populace that when they turn the age of majority they should go consume large amounts of alcohol simply because their now "of age". Or that when they consume alcohol before the legal age they should consume as much as they can because they may not get the opportunity again in the near future. Instead of looking at alcohol consumption per capita you'd probably want to look at alcohol poisoning per capita near the age of majority. (I have no idea what the stats on that actually are). In my personal experience not too many people consistently binge drink much past the legal age for drinking (because they discover it's actually quite boring).
angrycoder 15y ago
Things that are bad for in the long run are a whole lot of fun immediately. Also, those tv show you mentioned aren't creating reality. They mirror it.
- liquidcool 15y ago
  My hunch is that's it's both - kind of a feedback loop. It shows a certain lifestyle of a highly select group, and those outside that group (viewers) want to emulate it.
- redwood 15y ago
  Good point. In fact I think that those who abstain are often those who consume the most media into their adult years (what else are they doing while everyone is out having fun).
philwelch 15y ago
> A bias for optimum brain, liver, and lung capacity/health seems like the rational choice. So why do so many forgo that? If you want to maximize long-run happiness over the course of your lifespan, it's not entirely obvious that the rational choice is to abstain from drugs and alcohol. Many drugs cause little to no impairment to long-term cognitive function, especially when used in moderation. And according to the people that use them, some drugs have admittedly great benefits, ranging from spiritual enlightenment to making music sound better and food taste better to simply broadening one's perspective.
tsotha 15y ago
Meh. No matter what you do you're not going to live forever. Some people push that thought away; for others it's a daily mantra.
orangecat 15y ago
I recognize that I'm a deviant on the other side - I abstain from drugs, alcohol, and smoking. Same here and for similar reasons (although I still strongly oppose the WOD). But at least with alcohol, I'm pretty sure the optimal amount isn't zero in our current society. Not drinking has definitely interfered with my social development, which wasn't great to begin with. I don't plan to start now--among other reasons I can't stand the taste--but the advice I'd give to my 18 year old self is "go to parties, get drunk, and learn to enjoy it".
- suivix 15y ago
  If abstaining from something secludes you from your peers, then the abstinence likely would have a larger negative effect. That said, in college I did go out drinking with friends quite often. Just because that's what everyone did, and it was fun. My best memories are from then.
- liquidcool 15y ago
  I, too, dislike the taste, although if that's your only issue there are drinks with enough other ingredients to mask it (mudslides, pina coladas, daiquiris, etc.). Supposedly the max health benefit is 1 drink a day, followed by zero, and more than one is detrimental. However, there are studies that say a glass of red grape juice give similar benefits as one drink. I don't know anybody who follows that advice with any discipline, though. Not drinking doesn't affect my social enjoyment in the least. First, I find that most professionals (my social group) these days drink less than they did 10 years ago. But I was in a social fraternity in college and have no problem being at parties, bars, clubs, etc. with other people who are drinking. In fact, it's the opposite - I've found my NOT drinking affects the enjoyment of some drinkers. They get self-conscious about it, perhaps guilty. People don't want to drink alone, so if I'm with only one other person they usually won't imbibe. And I've found that those who are actively agitated by my not drinking are those who are alcoholics or marijuana addicts. That's rare, and they stop socializing with me, but I'm dodging a bullet and I'm not at a loss for friends.
  - disgruntledphd2 15y ago
    Just to note that those studies that suggest some alcohol is good for you are observational, and they conflate two different kinds of non-drinkers: 1) those who do not drink for personal reasons 2) former alcoholics. Its quite plausible that the poor health of recovering alcoholics is responsible for the differences in observed health seen in these studies. I agree with the rest of your post.

fleitz 15y ago

Its fruit of the forbidden tree. Look at drinking, North America is one of the few places where binge drinking has large appeal. Creating a banned books like is creating a reading list. Simply by making something illegal you give it appeal. Once legal most people realize that whatever it is that was banned is actually pretty boring.

dfc 15y ago
The US is not a big drinking country per capita: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_co... What is your evidence for your binge drinking statement? And what is your definition of binge drinking and large appeal.
- chimeracoder 15y ago
  I'll just point out that your chart, while relevant, doesn't necessarily disprove the original statement. Binge drinking is defined as a certain number of drinks in one night (four for women and five for men, I believe). It's possible that other countries drink more, but they spread it out, so they end up binge drinking less often.
  - dfc 15y ago
    There are all sorts of way to do the math. The issue is that he made a statement with zero factual support.
- woodpanel 15y ago
  I'd like to know that too. But for the record: "Alcohol Consumption per Capita" does not tell us HOW alcohol is consumed (I can drink 1-2 bottles of beer 7 days a week, or binge drink on weekends). To me "Binge Drinking" implies an aim towards delirium. EDIT: According to the telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7616405/Britain-is-the-binge-drinking-capital-of-Europe.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7616405/Britain...) a research (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_272b_en.pdf http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_272b_en....) found that the EU countries that drank the least also drank the most frequently. While relatively absent countries like Britain and Scandinavia tend to drink more at one sitting.
- fleitz 15y ago
  The evidence is personal experience. I'm not trying to publish a peer reviewed article, just convey personal experience that may be insightful to others as to why things appeal to people. If you'd like to run a study to falsify my hypothesis you're welcome to, posting vaguely relevant stats is not such a falsification if you want to go all theory of knowledge on my statement. It's the idea that to a large segment of the populace that when they turn the age of majority they should go consume large amounts of alcohol simply because their now "of age". Or that when they consume alcohol before the legal age they should consume as much as they can because they may not get the opportunity again in the near future. Instead of looking at alcohol consumption per capita you'd probably want to look at alcohol poisoning per capita near the age of majority. (I have no idea what the stats on that actually are). In my personal experience not too many people consistently binge drink much past the legal age for drinking (because they discover it's actually quite boring).

angrycoder 15y ago

Things that are bad for in the long run are a whole lot of fun immediately. Also, those tv show you mentioned aren't creating reality. They mirror it.

liquidcool 15y ago
My hunch is that's it's both - kind of a feedback loop. It shows a certain lifestyle of a highly select group, and those outside that group (viewers) want to emulate it.
redwood 15y ago
Good point. In fact I think that those who abstain are often those who consume the most media into their adult years (what else are they doing while everyone is out having fun).

philwelch 15y ago

> A bias for optimum brain, liver, and lung capacity/health seems like the rational choice. So why do so many forgo that? If you want to maximize long-run happiness over the course of your lifespan, it's not entirely obvious that the rational choice is to abstain from drugs and alcohol. Many drugs cause little to no impairment to long-term cognitive function, especially when used in moderation. And according to the people that use them, some drugs have admittedly great benefits, ranging from spiritual enlightenment to making music sound better and food taste better to simply broadening one's perspective.

tsotha 15y ago

Meh. No matter what you do you're not going to live forever. Some people push that thought away; for others it's a daily mantra.

orangecat 15y ago

I recognize that I'm a deviant on the other side - I abstain from drugs, alcohol, and smoking. Same here and for similar reasons (although I still strongly oppose the WOD). But at least with alcohol, I'm pretty sure the optimal amount isn't zero in our current society. Not drinking has definitely interfered with my social development, which wasn't great to begin with. I don't plan to start now--among other reasons I can't stand the taste--but the advice I'd give to my 18 year old self is "go to parties, get drunk, and learn to enjoy it".

suivix 15y ago
If abstaining from something secludes you from your peers, then the abstinence likely would have a larger negative effect. That said, in college I did go out drinking with friends quite often. Just because that's what everyone did, and it was fun. My best memories are from then.
liquidcool 15y ago
I, too, dislike the taste, although if that's your only issue there are drinks with enough other ingredients to mask it (mudslides, pina coladas, daiquiris, etc.). Supposedly the max health benefit is 1 drink a day, followed by zero, and more than one is detrimental. However, there are studies that say a glass of red grape juice give similar benefits as one drink. I don't know anybody who follows that advice with any discipline, though. Not drinking doesn't affect my social enjoyment in the least. First, I find that most professionals (my social group) these days drink less than they did 10 years ago. But I was in a social fraternity in college and have no problem being at parties, bars, clubs, etc. with other people who are drinking. In fact, it's the opposite - I've found my NOT drinking affects the enjoyment of some drinkers. They get self-conscious about it, perhaps guilty. People don't want to drink alone, so if I'm with only one other person they usually won't imbibe. And I've found that those who are actively agitated by my not drinking are those who are alcoholics or marijuana addicts. That's rare, and they stop socializing with me, but I'm dodging a bullet and I'm not at a loss for friends.
- disgruntledphd2 15y ago
  Just to note that those studies that suggest some alcohol is good for you are observational, and they conflate two different kinds of non-drinkers: 1) those who do not drink for personal reasons 2) former alcoholics. Its quite plausible that the poor health of recovering alcoholics is responsible for the differences in observed health seen in these studies. I agree with the rest of your post.