10 ms·

I'm concerned this is making numbers here because of fear mongers so I want to run the numbers a bit to > The top 10 countries ranked in the order of high to l

I'm concerned this is making numbers here because of fear mongers so I want to run the numbers a bit to > The top 10 countries ranked in the order of high to low average EE2 concentration in surface water, were Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Laos, Brazil, Argentina, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia and Portugal, with the respective mean concentrations of 27.7, 22.1, 21.5, 21.1, 13.6, 9.6, 9.5, 8.8, 7.6 and 6.6 ng/L Going by Wikipedia, lets see what a does is... "Doses of more than 50 µg EE are considered high-dose, doses of 30 and 35 µg EE are considered low-dose, and doses of 10 to 25 µg EE are considered very low dose"[1] More specifically for transfem use of 2mg orally is considered a low dose[2] Let's consider that the average person drinks 4 liters of water a day. In Vietnam that's 0.11µg a day, or 1/100th of a normal dose for an estradiol treatment for birth control and 1/20th rate of a "low dose" for MTF transfem usage in the most polluted country. Do I think this pollutant is fine and not a concern? No. It has other side effects and it's probably not great to have all the compounds we give to livestock running off into our drinking water. I bring this up because of the right wing fear of the "feminization of men." Vietnam you could get 1/20th a low dose of EE2 a day and whatever you're getting elsewhere less. Where the right wing ideology on this is strongest (US perhaps?) people would be getting a lower dose than even listed in the abstract, so 1/80th or less a day. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinylestradiol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinylestradiol [2] https://transfemscience.org/articles/e2-equivalent-doses/ https://transfemscience.org/articles/e2-equivalent-doses/ ---- EDIT: a different comment actually posted a chart showing the level of exposure in the US, which is LESS than 1ng. So less than 1/200th of a low dose. Calm down folks, or at least find something different to be afraid of.

georgia_peach 4y ago
Ideology doesn't factor into this. There is something in the water that shouldn't be there, and someone put it there---largely without permission. And what constitutes a "low dose" frequently changes by several orders of magnitude depending on who does the study, and who paid for the study.
- marricks 4y ago
  I agree! I explicitly state that I don't think random pollutants are good in that comment and there could be other reasons to care about it. I'm merely calling out that the thing most people freak out about with this compound (feminization) is not worth freaking out about.
  - georgia_peach 4y ago
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    - marricks 4y ago
      - junofan 4y ago
        How do you feel about people who think climate change is nothing to freak out about? I think empathy is called for here.
  - stuckinhell 4y ago
    Something in the water, that doesn't belong there, is worth freaking out about. I don't think you can decide what people decide is important to them. I'm a woman, and I still don't want it in the water. I certainly don't want my daughter getting hormone imbalances or early irregular puberty either.
- newsclues 4y ago
  Ideology doesn’t factor into this? Seems odd to say in an era where hormone therapy is being normalized and science is weaponized for ideological purposes regularly.
pure_simplicity 4y ago
Dropping testosterone levels and decreasing sperm quality are not a "right wing fear", but a scientific fact, and that should concern everyone: right and left wing, men and women. Also, to look at this 1 compound in isolation and downplay the significance of it, without considering the cumulative and synergistic effects of all the other xeno estrogens we are exposed to on a daily basis is irresponsible.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
- panarky 4y ago
  > not a "right wing fear", but a scientific fact Of course it's both, with the kernel of scientific fact being hyped and exaggerated by the right. It's important to call this out so people can evaluate whether the discussion is in good faith or if it's part of an information operation.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    The important thing to take away is that “right wing” talking point or not there is a genuine reason to be concerned here.
  - mancerayder 4y ago
    No, what's important is the truth or falsehood of a given claim. To attack the messenger, or to put focus on the messenger, is a dangerous path that leads to the deep divides we see, where reality seems just subjective to entire groups of people. It also contributes to a society more concerned about whether a fact is convenient or not for one's belief system, as opposed to an inquiry by a hungry mind which seeks to understand the world as-is (an ideal we should be fostering as intelligent people, for the good of society). This is more religious-inspired thinking than protecting the world from what you call an information operation. Ironically those institutions do the same thing in reverse (omitting or cherry picking facts to fit narrative).
    - 4y ago
User23 4y ago
> I bring this up because of the right wing fear of the "feminization of men." The secular testosterone decline in the west is absolutely incontrovertibly real. The error is looking for a single cause to pin a civilizational scale endocrine disruption event to.
- lazide 4y ago
  Which can also be related to the mass decrease in exercise and other activities which are known to increase testosterone in men, and rapid increases in stress and sedentary behaviors that are known to decrease it. Not saying the chemicals aren’t contributing, but our lifestyle is terrible and it has been getting that way rapidly and over a relatively short period of time (a generation).
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Point. Basically 15 years(?) of mass computerization of work? Whereas previous much more of it was physical, at least to the extent of moving around the office.
  - Sunspark 4y ago
    The rabbit hole is very deep. Our diet has changed (e.g. nutrient deficiencies, take one out, there is a knock-on effect), we have been exposed to more pollution which is absorbed through our skin and lungs, etc. Lifestyle changes too.. a great example is the legislative mandate for flame retardants. I feel they are used excessively. Flame retardants don't just go away. If your cushion or whatever gets older and starts to break down slowly, you bet those dust particles include flame retardants and you breath it in.
- littlecranky67 4y ago
  I agree there is no single isolated cause but multiple factors of declining testosterone levels. Body fat and obesity is also linked to reduced testosterone levels, and lifestyle in western countries (the US in particular) leads to more and more overweight and obese population. So if you are concerned about your testosterone levels, and immediate step you can take is to reduce your body fat.
TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago
I think it's also worth bearing in mind that œstradiol is not some exclusively “female” hormone: cis men have it in their blood too, just at a lower concentration. In fact, without it, males are infertile!
- bergenty 4y ago
  Sure but when you’re talking about order of magnitude differences there is a clear delineation and the fear is not unwarranted.
  - connicpu 4y ago
    The normal levels are closer then you think. The exact numbers differ depending on what lab you ask, but the normal male range of estradiol in the blood is around 15-55 pg/mL, while the normal healthy female level can vary from 70-500 pg/mL depending on the current stage of the menstrual cycle. Normally that doesn't matter though as most of estradiol's effects are overridden by an overwhelming amount of testosterone
    - bergenty 4y ago
      Yes but when the overwhelming majority of women are at >400 pg/ml and men under 20 pg/ml it’s more than an order of magnitude change.
- teslabox 4y ago
  Estrogen is a 'stress hormone' that needs to be balanced with anti-stress hormones for optimal health. All the steroids in the body are made from cholesterol. The term is steroidogenesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#Steroidogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#Steroidogenesis Estrogen is at the end of the steroidogenesis pathway. It's a stress hormone. In the menstrual cycle, estrogen tells the uterine lining to 'swell and divide'. Fertile women are protected from their higher estrogen levels by their high levels of Progesterone USP during the luteal phase of their menstrual cycle. When women reach menopause, their heart attack numbers rapidly reach men's heart attack numbers. Adipose tissue has a lot of the aromatase enzyme [0], which converts testosterone to estrogen. People with more adipose tissue lose their testosterone by converting it to estrogen. The heart of both genders concentrates testosterone. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase [1] Obesity, estrogens and adipose tissue dysfunction – implications for pulmonary arterial hypertension - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2045894020952023 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20458940209520... I sold a progesterone supplement on Amazon years ago... My best customer was "Billie", who I suspect was MTF and was using progesterone USP to balance his estrogen treatments. I referred him to other manufacturers when he noticed my supplement was no longer available. Pregnenolone is a useful supplement for balancing the steroid system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidogenesis.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidoge... (edit: added [1])
bergenty 4y ago
There nothing right wing about this concern. As a progressive man I don’t want to be feminized, it’s terrifying, both at the personal and species level.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nikisweeting 4y ago
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Because there is a bell curve defining how a typical body is supposed to be and man-made chemicals in the water are causing deviations from that? Why isn’t that terrifying to you?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
davmar 4y ago
> The top 10 countries ... were Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Laos, Brazil, Argentina, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia and Portugal... in many of those countries people drink bottled or purified (not surface) water.
- jhugo 4y ago
  The average person in most of those countries drinks tap water, either boiled or filtered to varying levels of efficiency. In addition, fish are often caught in surface water, livestock may drink it, etc.
  - davmar 4y ago
    dude, you're right, my mistake. i was thinking of how i travel through those places.
rayiner 4y ago
> I bring this up because of the right wing fear of the "feminization of men." > Where the right wing ideology on this is strongest (US perhaps?) I can’t imagine the confusion that would lead someone to conclude that “feminization of men” is a “right wing fear” that is perhaps “strongest” in the US? The US has among the loosest gender norms of any place in the world, including a number of European countries. In the other countries you mentioned, like China, Kuwait, etc., traditional gender norms aren’t even “right wing”—because that would imply they’re even up for debate: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > In the other countries you mentioned, like China, Kuwait, etc., traditional gender norms aren’t even “right wing”—because that would imply they’re even up for debate: Yet another reason why left/right dichotomy is useless.
- stevehawk 4y ago
  they probably assume it because Republicans say it out loud.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Only because what you would call a “Republican take” on gender norms in the US is “common knowledge” nearly everywhere in Asia or Africa. You should hear my mom complain how my dad “doesn’t do man’s work, just laptop.” And she qualifies as a feminist in Bangladesh!
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- pfisherman 4y ago
  I would say this is more about gender roles than gender norms, particularly women’s place in social status / power hierarchy. It is a fact our increasingly connected world favors some traits that have been traditionally thought of as feminine, such as high emotional intelligence, openness, and agreeableness; and people are adapting. All this anxiety about feminization of men - and masculinization of women - is just useless gnashing of teeth from those who are having trouble coping with rapid change brought on by technological advancement.
gnorme 4y ago
Humans aren't the only thing we should be considering. Collapse of a fish population after exposure to a synthetic estrogen "We conducted a 7-year, whole-lake experiment at the Experimental Lakes Area (ELA) in northwestern Ontario, Canada, and showed that chronic exposure of fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas) to low concentrations (5–6 ng·L−1) of the potent 17α-ethynylestradiol led to feminization of males through the production of vitellogenin mRNA and protein, impacts on gonadal development as evidenced by intersex in males and altered oogenesis in females, and, ultimately, a near extinction of this species from the lake." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874224/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874224/
stuckinhell 4y ago
That's a bit misleading. One of the major issues is that we have a food chain, in which these chemicals can become concentrated and yes at higher concentrations it would feminize men, or earlier puberty in young girls. At the same time, we have radical increases in transgendered humans, and earlier puberty in young girls worldwide. Correlation isn't causation, but its often a place to start running experiments looking at causation.
underlying1941 4y ago
>More specifically for transfem use of 2mg orally is considered a low dose That refers to "regular" estradiol. Ethinylestradiol is much more powerful. You can't compare doses 1:1.

georgia_peach 4y ago

Ideology doesn't factor into this. There is something in the water that shouldn't be there, and someone put it there---largely without permission. And what constitutes a "low dose" frequently changes by several orders of magnitude depending on who does the study, and who paid for the study.

marricks 4y ago
I agree! I explicitly state that I don't think random pollutants are good in that comment and there could be other reasons to care about it. I'm merely calling out that the thing most people freak out about with this compound (feminization) is not worth freaking out about.
- georgia_peach 4y ago
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  - marricks 4y ago
    - junofan 4y ago
      How do you feel about people who think climate change is nothing to freak out about? I think empathy is called for here.
- stuckinhell 4y ago
  Something in the water, that doesn't belong there, is worth freaking out about. I don't think you can decide what people decide is important to them. I'm a woman, and I still don't want it in the water. I certainly don't want my daughter getting hormone imbalances or early irregular puberty either.
newsclues 4y ago
Ideology doesn’t factor into this? Seems odd to say in an era where hormone therapy is being normalized and science is weaponized for ideological purposes regularly.

pure_simplicity 4y ago

Dropping testosterone levels and decreasing sperm quality are not a "right wing fear", but a scientific fact, and that should concern everyone: right and left wing, men and women. Also, to look at this 1 compound in isolation and downplay the significance of it, without considering the cumulative and synergistic effects of all the other xeno estrogens we are exposed to on a daily basis is irresponsible.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
panarky 4y ago
> not a "right wing fear", but a scientific fact Of course it's both, with the kernel of scientific fact being hyped and exaggerated by the right. It's important to call this out so people can evaluate whether the discussion is in good faith or if it's part of an information operation.
- bergenty 4y ago
  The important thing to take away is that “right wing” talking point or not there is a genuine reason to be concerned here.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  No, what's important is the truth or falsehood of a given claim. To attack the messenger, or to put focus on the messenger, is a dangerous path that leads to the deep divides we see, where reality seems just subjective to entire groups of people. It also contributes to a society more concerned about whether a fact is convenient or not for one's belief system, as opposed to an inquiry by a hungry mind which seeks to understand the world as-is (an ideal we should be fostering as intelligent people, for the good of society). This is more religious-inspired thinking than protecting the world from what you call an information operation. Ironically those institutions do the same thing in reverse (omitting or cherry picking facts to fit narrative).
  - 4y ago

User23 4y ago

> I bring this up because of the right wing fear of the "feminization of men." The secular testosterone decline in the west is absolutely incontrovertibly real. The error is looking for a single cause to pin a civilizational scale endocrine disruption event to.

lazide 4y ago
Which can also be related to the mass decrease in exercise and other activities which are known to increase testosterone in men, and rapid increases in stress and sedentary behaviors that are known to decrease it. Not saying the chemicals aren’t contributing, but our lifestyle is terrible and it has been getting that way rapidly and over a relatively short period of time (a generation).
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Point. Basically 15 years(?) of mass computerization of work? Whereas previous much more of it was physical, at least to the extent of moving around the office.
- Sunspark 4y ago
  The rabbit hole is very deep. Our diet has changed (e.g. nutrient deficiencies, take one out, there is a knock-on effect), we have been exposed to more pollution which is absorbed through our skin and lungs, etc. Lifestyle changes too.. a great example is the legislative mandate for flame retardants. I feel they are used excessively. Flame retardants don't just go away. If your cushion or whatever gets older and starts to break down slowly, you bet those dust particles include flame retardants and you breath it in.
littlecranky67 4y ago
I agree there is no single isolated cause but multiple factors of declining testosterone levels. Body fat and obesity is also linked to reduced testosterone levels, and lifestyle in western countries (the US in particular) leads to more and more overweight and obese population. So if you are concerned about your testosterone levels, and immediate step you can take is to reduce your body fat.

TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that œstradiol is not some exclusively “female” hormone: cis men have it in their blood too, just at a lower concentration. In fact, without it, males are infertile!

bergenty 4y ago
Sure but when you’re talking about order of magnitude differences there is a clear delineation and the fear is not unwarranted.
- connicpu 4y ago
  The normal levels are closer then you think. The exact numbers differ depending on what lab you ask, but the normal male range of estradiol in the blood is around 15-55 pg/mL, while the normal healthy female level can vary from 70-500 pg/mL depending on the current stage of the menstrual cycle. Normally that doesn't matter though as most of estradiol's effects are overridden by an overwhelming amount of testosterone
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Yes but when the overwhelming majority of women are at >400 pg/ml and men under 20 pg/ml it’s more than an order of magnitude change.
teslabox 4y ago
Estrogen is a 'stress hormone' that needs to be balanced with anti-stress hormones for optimal health. All the steroids in the body are made from cholesterol. The term is steroidogenesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#Steroidogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#Steroidogenesis Estrogen is at the end of the steroidogenesis pathway. It's a stress hormone. In the menstrual cycle, estrogen tells the uterine lining to 'swell and divide'. Fertile women are protected from their higher estrogen levels by their high levels of Progesterone USP during the luteal phase of their menstrual cycle. When women reach menopause, their heart attack numbers rapidly reach men's heart attack numbers. Adipose tissue has a lot of the aromatase enzyme [0], which converts testosterone to estrogen. People with more adipose tissue lose their testosterone by converting it to estrogen. The heart of both genders concentrates testosterone. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase [1] Obesity, estrogens and adipose tissue dysfunction – implications for pulmonary arterial hypertension - https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2045894020952023 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20458940209520... I sold a progesterone supplement on Amazon years ago... My best customer was "Billie", who I suspect was MTF and was using progesterone USP to balance his estrogen treatments. I referred him to other manufacturers when he noticed my supplement was no longer available. Pregnenolone is a useful supplement for balancing the steroid system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidogenesis.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidoge... (edit: added [1])

bergenty 4y ago

There nothing right wing about this concern. As a progressive man I don’t want to be feminized, it’s terrifying, both at the personal and species level.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nikisweeting 4y ago
- rayiner 4y ago
  Because there is a bell curve defining how a typical body is supposed to be and man-made chemicals in the water are causing deviations from that? Why isn’t that terrifying to you?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

davmar 4y ago

> The top 10 countries ... were Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Laos, Brazil, Argentina, Kuwait, Thailand, Indonesia and Portugal... in many of those countries people drink bottled or purified (not surface) water.

jhugo 4y ago
The average person in most of those countries drinks tap water, either boiled or filtered to varying levels of efficiency. In addition, fish are often caught in surface water, livestock may drink it, etc.
- davmar 4y ago
  dude, you're right, my mistake. i was thinking of how i travel through those places.

rayiner 4y ago

> I bring this up because of the right wing fear of the "feminization of men." > Where the right wing ideology on this is strongest (US perhaps?) I can’t imagine the confusion that would lead someone to conclude that “feminization of men” is a “right wing fear” that is perhaps “strongest” in the US? The US has among the loosest gender norms of any place in the world, including a number of European countries. In the other countries you mentioned, like China, Kuwait, etc., traditional gender norms aren’t even “right wing”—because that would imply they’re even up for debate: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248

the_only_law 4y ago
> In the other countries you mentioned, like China, Kuwait, etc., traditional gender norms aren’t even “right wing”—because that would imply they’re even up for debate: Yet another reason why left/right dichotomy is useless.
stevehawk 4y ago
they probably assume it because Republicans say it out loud.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Only because what you would call a “Republican take” on gender norms in the US is “common knowledge” nearly everywhere in Asia or Africa. You should hear my mom complain how my dad “doesn’t do man’s work, just laptop.” And she qualifies as a feminist in Bangladesh!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
pfisherman 4y ago
I would say this is more about gender roles than gender norms, particularly women’s place in social status / power hierarchy. It is a fact our increasingly connected world favors some traits that have been traditionally thought of as feminine, such as high emotional intelligence, openness, and agreeableness; and people are adapting. All this anxiety about feminization of men - and masculinization of women - is just useless gnashing of teeth from those who are having trouble coping with rapid change brought on by technological advancement.

gnorme 4y ago

Humans aren't the only thing we should be considering. Collapse of a fish population after exposure to a synthetic estrogen "We conducted a 7-year, whole-lake experiment at the Experimental Lakes Area (ELA) in northwestern Ontario, Canada, and showed that chronic exposure of fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas) to low concentrations (5–6 ng·L−1) of the potent 17α-ethynylestradiol led to feminization of males through the production of vitellogenin mRNA and protein, impacts on gonadal development as evidenced by intersex in males and altered oogenesis in females, and, ultimately, a near extinction of this species from the lake." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874224/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874224/

stuckinhell 4y ago

That's a bit misleading. One of the major issues is that we have a food chain, in which these chemicals can become concentrated and yes at higher concentrations it would feminize men, or earlier puberty in young girls. At the same time, we have radical increases in transgendered humans, and earlier puberty in young girls worldwide. Correlation isn't causation, but its often a place to start running experiments looking at causation.

underlying1941 4y ago

>More specifically for transfem use of 2mg orally is considered a low dose That refers to "regular" estradiol. Ethinylestradiol is much more powerful. You can't compare doses 1:1.