4 ms·

The last I heard, Wayland doesn't support remote rendering and it's considered out of scope. This is a critical feature for me, which leads me to hope the answe

The last I heard, Wayland doesn't support remote rendering and it's considered out of scope. This is a critical feature for me, which leads me to hope the answer is "never."

kgxjgdg 4y ago
remote rendering in X has been unusable for anything more than simple applications for over a decade. try using firefox over X forwarding in 2022.
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  It was a fine idea in Motif days when X was drawing lines and rectangles. These days it receives ready and extremely heavy bitmaps from applications, so anything besides writing to shared memory gets pretty slow. I wonder why you'd want to send this over network without efficient video compression like screen-sharing tools do.
  - Amezarak 4y ago
    This isn’t remotely an issue on gigabit links, where I use it. Not sure how much of a problem it is at lower speeds - it isn’t my go-to solution on the public Internet.
    - Crysstalis 4y ago
      I am sure you can understand how that is a contrived situation if you are trying to test and deploy a general-purpose network application. In every other case with lower speeds it is a horrible option, the bandwidth usage is unacceptable.
      - Amezarak 4y ago
        There is nothing contrived about it. This is my daily reality. I have more than a hundred sites, each with hundreds to thousands of Linux servers, none of which are connected to the Internet. I've also seen it work fine with 100mbit speeds. But again, I'm not going to make the claim that X-forwarding is the be-all and end-all of remote display solutions; I use mostly RDP and VNC when I'm on the Internet. I never said that X-forwarding is the best remoting solution in all scenarios. You're the one making the argument that everyone who doesn't do things your way is doing it wrong, because you don't seem to understand that other people have radically different use cases than what you're used to. And the flexibility of X11 means that it supports those use cases and others out of the box...and Wayland does not. In fact, the only thing I've seen going for it is that a) people don't want to maintain X11 and b) it addresses vague security issues like applications resetting your display settings that almost no-one ever had a problem with. It's not a mystery to me why people complain. You're telling people that they're wrong for using their computers the way they've been using them for decades, and if they only change their workflow and environment (which they may have no control over) then they will be compliant with what's new and happening. I'm not here to defend X11, I have no great love for it, but it's bizarre to be told not wanting major feature regressions is wrong.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  I use Firefox over X forwarding all the time (pretty much every workday) in 2022, and it works fine. I have not had a problem with any application thus far.
kirbyfan64sos 4y ago
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe
- Amezarak 4y ago
  Glad to hear it is possible, but I need it to be default and correctly configured on all Wayland installs to be useful.
  - Crysstalis 4y ago
    No, you can just install it if you need it. It is just another package, there is no special reason it needs to be default.
    - Amezarak 4y ago
      Many of us work in worlds where we absolutely cannot just install packages. Solutions that aren’t default are solutions we can’t use. And X forwarding is available by default - losing that is regression.
      - Crysstalis 4y ago
        If you cannot install any packages at all without major hassle, then I think you would have a lot worse problems in many other areas besides this. As I said elsewhere in the thread, X11 is also a horrible remoting solution, pretty much worse than every other possible option in every way. The only reason it seems anyone would even consider using it is because ssh has built-in support for it, or if you only use a handful of small Xaw3d or Motif applications with no graphics or bitmaps.
        Amezarak 4y ago
        > then I think you would have a lot worse problems in many other areas besides this. I don't. I deal with many thousands of Linux servers. Batteries-included languages and X forwarded are my bread and butter. Losing the latter would make my job much, much worse. Of course, it would be nice to install random packages, but I can't. > The only reason it seems anyone would even consider using it is because ssh has built-in support for it, or if you only use a handful of small Xaw3d or Motif applications with no graphics or bitmaps. This is absolutely absurd and a completely ridiculous exaggeration approaching slander. I use perfectly normal, modern applications with X forwarding every day with zero issue, including web browsers (Firefox), image editors (GIMP), file managers (Dolphin), IDEs (Eclipse), various developer tools (MySQL Workbench) etc. Frankly, a comment like this is shocking because it's plainly untrue. > The only reason it seems anyone would even consider using it is because ssh has built-in support for it This is a tremendously bigger upside than you seem to be giving credit for. I'm going to just say it in this comment, because HN rate-limiting is hitting me, but none of the solutions you mentioned meet the criteria I described in the other post.
Crysstalis 4y ago
X11 forwarding is not even the best option for remote rendering on X11. You will get better results with VNC or NX/Xpra.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  I guess it depends on what you mean by "best." For me, X11 forwarding: - works out of the box, no config needed - works on an application level rather than desktops; this is key - doesn't require anything network-wise but SSH - doesn't require me to modify servers in tightly controlled environments These are all mandatory requirements for me.
  - Crysstalis 4y ago
    That is how all other remoting solutions work. X11 forwarding just happens to be the worst one.
    - Amezarak 4y ago
      No other solution I am aware of meets that criteria, happy to be shown otherwise.
      - Crysstalis 4y ago
        I mentioned three solutions. In general you can make a lot of things "just work" with SSH, by using port forwarding.
bigfoot 4y ago
That was my position too, but I was recently told there's a tool called waypipe that is supposed to solve this. Haven't tried it yet, though.

The last I heard, Wayland doesn't support remote rendering and it's considered out of scope. This is a critical feature for me, which leads me to hope the answer is "never."

kgxjgdg 4y ago

remote rendering in X has been unusable for anything more than simple applications for over a decade. try using firefox over X forwarding in 2022.

5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
It was a fine idea in Motif days when X was drawing lines and rectangles. These days it receives ready and extremely heavy bitmaps from applications, so anything besides writing to shared memory gets pretty slow. I wonder why you'd want to send this over network without efficient video compression like screen-sharing tools do.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  This isn’t remotely an issue on gigabit links, where I use it. Not sure how much of a problem it is at lower speeds - it isn’t my go-to solution on the public Internet.
  - Crysstalis 4y ago
    I am sure you can understand how that is a contrived situation if you are trying to test and deploy a general-purpose network application. In every other case with lower speeds it is a horrible option, the bandwidth usage is unacceptable.
    - Amezarak 4y ago
      There is nothing contrived about it. This is my daily reality. I have more than a hundred sites, each with hundreds to thousands of Linux servers, none of which are connected to the Internet. I've also seen it work fine with 100mbit speeds. But again, I'm not going to make the claim that X-forwarding is the be-all and end-all of remote display solutions; I use mostly RDP and VNC when I'm on the Internet. I never said that X-forwarding is the best remoting solution in all scenarios. You're the one making the argument that everyone who doesn't do things your way is doing it wrong, because you don't seem to understand that other people have radically different use cases than what you're used to. And the flexibility of X11 means that it supports those use cases and others out of the box...and Wayland does not. In fact, the only thing I've seen going for it is that a) people don't want to maintain X11 and b) it addresses vague security issues like applications resetting your display settings that almost no-one ever had a problem with. It's not a mystery to me why people complain. You're telling people that they're wrong for using their computers the way they've been using them for decades, and if they only change their workflow and environment (which they may have no control over) then they will be compliant with what's new and happening. I'm not here to defend X11, I have no great love for it, but it's bizarre to be told not wanting major feature regressions is wrong.
Amezarak 4y ago
I use Firefox over X forwarding all the time (pretty much every workday) in 2022, and it works fine. I have not had a problem with any application thus far.

kirbyfan64sos 4y ago

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe

Amezarak 4y ago
Glad to hear it is possible, but I need it to be default and correctly configured on all Wayland installs to be useful.
- Crysstalis 4y ago
  No, you can just install it if you need it. It is just another package, there is no special reason it needs to be default.
  - Amezarak 4y ago
    Many of us work in worlds where we absolutely cannot just install packages. Solutions that aren’t default are solutions we can’t use. And X forwarding is available by default - losing that is regression.
    - Crysstalis 4y ago
      If you cannot install any packages at all without major hassle, then I think you would have a lot worse problems in many other areas besides this. As I said elsewhere in the thread, X11 is also a horrible remoting solution, pretty much worse than every other possible option in every way. The only reason it seems anyone would even consider using it is because ssh has built-in support for it, or if you only use a handful of small Xaw3d or Motif applications with no graphics or bitmaps.
      - Amezarak 4y ago
        > then I think you would have a lot worse problems in many other areas besides this. I don't. I deal with many thousands of Linux servers. Batteries-included languages and X forwarded are my bread and butter. Losing the latter would make my job much, much worse. Of course, it would be nice to install random packages, but I can't. > The only reason it seems anyone would even consider using it is because ssh has built-in support for it, or if you only use a handful of small Xaw3d or Motif applications with no graphics or bitmaps. This is absolutely absurd and a completely ridiculous exaggeration approaching slander. I use perfectly normal, modern applications with X forwarding every day with zero issue, including web browsers (Firefox), image editors (GIMP), file managers (Dolphin), IDEs (Eclipse), various developer tools (MySQL Workbench) etc. Frankly, a comment like this is shocking because it's plainly untrue. > The only reason it seems anyone would even consider using it is because ssh has built-in support for it This is a tremendously bigger upside than you seem to be giving credit for. I'm going to just say it in this comment, because HN rate-limiting is hitting me, but none of the solutions you mentioned meet the criteria I described in the other post.

Crysstalis 4y ago

X11 forwarding is not even the best option for remote rendering on X11. You will get better results with VNC or NX/Xpra.

Amezarak 4y ago
I guess it depends on what you mean by "best." For me, X11 forwarding: - works out of the box, no config needed - works on an application level rather than desktops; this is key - doesn't require anything network-wise but SSH - doesn't require me to modify servers in tightly controlled environments These are all mandatory requirements for me.
- Crysstalis 4y ago
  That is how all other remoting solutions work. X11 forwarding just happens to be the worst one.
  - Amezarak 4y ago
    No other solution I am aware of meets that criteria, happy to be shown otherwise.
    - Crysstalis 4y ago
      I mentioned three solutions. In general you can make a lot of things "just work" with SSH, by using port forwarding.

bigfoot 4y ago

That was my position too, but I was recently told there's a tool called waypipe that is supposed to solve this. Haven't tried it yet, though.