6 ms·

There is and always will be a fundamental tension between law enforcement and people wanting privacy and security (when from law enforcement). A simple illustr

There is and always will be a fundamental tension between law enforcement and people wanting privacy and security (when from law enforcement). A simple illustration of what might trigger people to thing of the other side of this might be "Why is it so hard as a U.S. citizen to get an offshore bank account that the U.S. absolutely completed can't get access to no matter what?" The U.S. government thinks they have very valid reasons they should be able to see the details of the accounts of all U.S. citizens regardless of where those accounts may be. For the most part I agree with the concept, because as an entity responsible for collecting and running off of taxes, allowing otherwise is antithetical to their existence, and I'd rather the U.S. government continue to run. That doesn't mean I think they should have access to everything about all accounts, but they should have access to some information. At the same time, I don't think they should access to nothing about certain accounts, for similar reasoning. Both extremes are unacceptable, as is often the case.

cesarb 4y ago
> The U.S. government thinks they have very valid reasons they should be able to see the details of the accounts of all U.S. citizens regardless of where those accounts may be. For the most part I agree with the concept, because as an entity responsible for collecting and running off of taxes, [...] Most of the world doesn't agree with that concept. AFAIK, the only countries which tax citizens instead of just residents are the USA and Eritrea.
- notch656a 4y ago
  The USA also has an exit tax of a few grand to renounce, so they basically hold you at gunpoint that even if you leave the US for good and never use any of their services or even consular services you have an 'original sin' that forces you to keep filing or pay up the fee to leave the gang.
  - silverpepsi 4y ago
    .. that's not the exit tax though. That's the fee to process your exit. If you do have a substantial networth there is an actual exit tax on your total net worth
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      Is there a reason processing an exit takes more than, let's say, the $165 it costs for a first-time passport? It looks to me like they're both taxes.
      - lazide 4y ago
        Of course, they have to make sure you’re in all the ‘naughty’ databases too (/s)
    - notch656a 4y ago
      Use whatever semantics you like.
- kbenson 4y ago
  U.S. citizenship comes with benefits (voting, etc) as well as drawbacks (taxation). If you don't need those benefits and you don't want the drawbacks, renounce citizenship. That said, I was being a little loose when saying citizenship. The U.S. has various laws many of which are regarding taxation of business within its borders, with entities housed in its borders, or citizens abroad. They will seek to enforce those laws. I think that's for the most part that's fairly standard. There are of course a myriad of ways in which the issue becomes more complicated, and I'm not trying to claim the government can do no wrong and all their actions are justified, I just think it's important to look at the issue holistically. The government should be capable, which appropriate checks and balances, to enforce the laws. People should have the ability to have some expectation of privacy from the government unless there's a specific reason the government seeking otherwise that's valid.
  - safety1st 4y ago
    I'm sorry to hear that you don't think I should be a US citizen because I live overseas. Fortunately, I don't give a shit about your opinions. Here's my opinion, I think the US should do what virtually every other country in the world does - accept that its power is not absolute, and tax its citizens based on residence, not on citizenship. Do you have skin in this game? If not, get off my back and stop trying to make my life worse. Expats are already screwed by the tax code. We have FATCA and FBAR and we get denied basic financial services when we're outside the US. Many banks in other countries now deny American expats bank accounts because they're terrified of repercussions from the US government if the foreign bank doesn't fill out US tax forms correctly. We don't need more of this crap you're pushing. Stop screwing up ordinary people's lives. I will make the most charitable interpretation I can here and assume that you want to hurt other Americans and tell them if they don't like it they can stop being American out of ignorance, not out of malice.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Oh come on. That's the least charitable interpretation of what they said. The US gives expat citizens a huge tax deduction. You only pay taxes if you're a wealthy expat. The paperwork is to enforce it. Otherwise, wealthy people in the US could just "live" in tax havens and evade US taxes.
- refurb 4y ago
  Not sure what taxation of non-residents has to do with it? In all developed countries there is an on-going effort to make sure that off-shore assets are identified so they can be taxed appropriately. Canada requires it. https://farbertax.com/cra-foreign-assets-and-income/reporting-foreign-bank-accounts/ https://farbertax.com/cra-foreign-assets-and-income/reportin...
- stackbutterflow 4y ago
  Europe at least started to track overseas Europeans' bank accounts. Edit: s/Europe/The EU.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    To check for tax avoidance while you're an EU tax resident, but that's it. The EU doesn't make you pay EU taxes if you're not a tax resident.
oceanplexian 4y ago
I'm of the opinion they should have access to absolutely nothing without a warrant issued by a judge. And that the warrant needs to be lawfully issued based on probable cause that a crime has been committed, for a specific person, to search a specific account at a specific time and place. Back in the day this "extreme" was called the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution. But law enforcement doesn't respect the highest law of the land, and neither do the courts, and neither does the government. IMHO that makes the whole lot of them criminals.
- DubiousPusher 4y ago
  - throwntoday 4y ago
    - krapp 4y ago
      It's funny how Americans keep parroting this nonsense while their liberties are constantly and arbitrarily abused by their government all the time, despite being armed to the teeth.
      - systemvoltage 4y ago
        2A is a last measure. I’m glad it’s that way.
      - throwntoday 4y ago
        Things would have to get really bad for enough people before another revolution is the most logical answer. I don't know why you think owning a gun means wanting to use it. Someone who isn't a sociopath would look for every reason not to.
      - formerkrogemp 4y ago
        That's a good point.
landemva 4y ago
The people should have visibility into the accounts and spending of the federal government and in particular defense spending. Pentagon full spending audit won't happen in our lifetimes yet the feds claim they should have full visibility into average person's spending and banking. This is upside down.
- humaniania 4y ago
  Have you ever tried to look? The federal budget is publicly available: https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/budget/2022 https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/budget/2022 There are even government sites with fun visualizations you can explore: https://datalab.usaspending.gov/americas-finance-guide/ https://datalab.usaspending.gov/americas-finance-guide/
  - landemva 4y ago
    What is budgeted is different than what is spent. Budget is what they ask Congress to put in spending bill which is signed into law. Then funds are appropriated. Then funds are spent. Pentagon spending audit is overdue by a couple decades. https://text.npr.org/997961646 https://text.npr.org/997961646 Donald Rumsfeld gave a speech and pledged to get to the bottom of the missing $2.3T. He even created office space just for that effort and put everything there so the bookkeepers could get the job done. Guess where the Pentagon was hit the very next day? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-war-on-waste/#app https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-war-on-waste/#app
    - mark_l_watson 4y ago
      We will never ever, ever see an audit of military spending. A few years ago the Admiral who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs shocked me by publicly throwing out the number (if I remember correctly) of $7 trillion that the DoD couldn’t account for. That would buy a lot of lunches for hungry children in our country. Anyway I was shocked by his admission, although I think his estimate is too low. What our country needs is more patriotic people like that Admiral who at least occasionally inform the public.
    - 4y ago

cesarb 4y ago

> The U.S. government thinks they have very valid reasons they should be able to see the details of the accounts of all U.S. citizens regardless of where those accounts may be. For the most part I agree with the concept, because as an entity responsible for collecting and running off of taxes, [...] Most of the world doesn't agree with that concept. AFAIK, the only countries which tax citizens instead of just residents are the USA and Eritrea.

notch656a 4y ago
The USA also has an exit tax of a few grand to renounce, so they basically hold you at gunpoint that even if you leave the US for good and never use any of their services or even consular services you have an 'original sin' that forces you to keep filing or pay up the fee to leave the gang.
- silverpepsi 4y ago
  .. that's not the exit tax though. That's the fee to process your exit. If you do have a substantial networth there is an actual exit tax on your total net worth
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    Is there a reason processing an exit takes more than, let's say, the $165 it costs for a first-time passport? It looks to me like they're both taxes.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Of course, they have to make sure you’re in all the ‘naughty’ databases too (/s)
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Use whatever semantics you like.
kbenson 4y ago
U.S. citizenship comes with benefits (voting, etc) as well as drawbacks (taxation). If you don't need those benefits and you don't want the drawbacks, renounce citizenship. That said, I was being a little loose when saying citizenship. The U.S. has various laws many of which are regarding taxation of business within its borders, with entities housed in its borders, or citizens abroad. They will seek to enforce those laws. I think that's for the most part that's fairly standard. There are of course a myriad of ways in which the issue becomes more complicated, and I'm not trying to claim the government can do no wrong and all their actions are justified, I just think it's important to look at the issue holistically. The government should be capable, which appropriate checks and balances, to enforce the laws. People should have the ability to have some expectation of privacy from the government unless there's a specific reason the government seeking otherwise that's valid.
- safety1st 4y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that you don't think I should be a US citizen because I live overseas. Fortunately, I don't give a shit about your opinions. Here's my opinion, I think the US should do what virtually every other country in the world does - accept that its power is not absolute, and tax its citizens based on residence, not on citizenship. Do you have skin in this game? If not, get off my back and stop trying to make my life worse. Expats are already screwed by the tax code. We have FATCA and FBAR and we get denied basic financial services when we're outside the US. Many banks in other countries now deny American expats bank accounts because they're terrified of repercussions from the US government if the foreign bank doesn't fill out US tax forms correctly. We don't need more of this crap you're pushing. Stop screwing up ordinary people's lives. I will make the most charitable interpretation I can here and assume that you want to hurt other Americans and tell them if they don't like it they can stop being American out of ignorance, not out of malice.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Oh come on. That's the least charitable interpretation of what they said. The US gives expat citizens a huge tax deduction. You only pay taxes if you're a wealthy expat. The paperwork is to enforce it. Otherwise, wealthy people in the US could just "live" in tax havens and evade US taxes.
refurb 4y ago
Not sure what taxation of non-residents has to do with it? In all developed countries there is an on-going effort to make sure that off-shore assets are identified so they can be taxed appropriately. Canada requires it. https://farbertax.com/cra-foreign-assets-and-income/reporting-foreign-bank-accounts/ https://farbertax.com/cra-foreign-assets-and-income/reportin...
stackbutterflow 4y ago
Europe at least started to track overseas Europeans' bank accounts. Edit: s/Europe/The EU.
- sofixa 4y ago
  To check for tax avoidance while you're an EU tax resident, but that's it. The EU doesn't make you pay EU taxes if you're not a tax resident.

oceanplexian 4y ago

I'm of the opinion they should have access to absolutely nothing without a warrant issued by a judge. And that the warrant needs to be lawfully issued based on probable cause that a crime has been committed, for a specific person, to search a specific account at a specific time and place. Back in the day this "extreme" was called the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution. But law enforcement doesn't respect the highest law of the land, and neither do the courts, and neither does the government. IMHO that makes the whole lot of them criminals.

DubiousPusher 4y ago
- throwntoday 4y ago
  - krapp 4y ago
    It's funny how Americans keep parroting this nonsense while their liberties are constantly and arbitrarily abused by their government all the time, despite being armed to the teeth.
    - systemvoltage 4y ago
      2A is a last measure. I’m glad it’s that way.
    - throwntoday 4y ago
      Things would have to get really bad for enough people before another revolution is the most logical answer. I don't know why you think owning a gun means wanting to use it. Someone who isn't a sociopath would look for every reason not to.
    - formerkrogemp 4y ago
      That's a good point.

landemva 4y ago

The people should have visibility into the accounts and spending of the federal government and in particular defense spending. Pentagon full spending audit won't happen in our lifetimes yet the feds claim they should have full visibility into average person's spending and banking. This is upside down.

humaniania 4y ago
Have you ever tried to look? The federal budget is publicly available: https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/budget/2022 https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/budget/2022 There are even government sites with fun visualizations you can explore: https://datalab.usaspending.gov/americas-finance-guide/ https://datalab.usaspending.gov/americas-finance-guide/
- landemva 4y ago
  What is budgeted is different than what is spent. Budget is what they ask Congress to put in spending bill which is signed into law. Then funds are appropriated. Then funds are spent. Pentagon spending audit is overdue by a couple decades. https://text.npr.org/997961646 https://text.npr.org/997961646 Donald Rumsfeld gave a speech and pledged to get to the bottom of the missing $2.3T. He even created office space just for that effort and put everything there so the bookkeepers could get the job done. Guess where the Pentagon was hit the very next day? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-war-on-waste/#app https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-war-on-waste/#app
  - mark_l_watson 4y ago
    We will never ever, ever see an audit of military spending. A few years ago the Admiral who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs shocked me by publicly throwing out the number (if I remember correctly) of $7 trillion that the DoD couldn’t account for. That would buy a lot of lunches for hungry children in our country. Anyway I was shocked by his admission, although I think his estimate is too low. What our country needs is more patriotic people like that Admiral who at least occasionally inform the public.
  - 4y ago