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>In any case, vaping is UNQUESTIONABLY better than smoking cigarettes. Why does this matter though? Both are still bad for your body and we shouldn't be encour

by daenz 4y ago

>In any case, vaping is UNQUESTIONABLY better than smoking cigarettes. Why does this matter though? Both are still bad for your body and we shouldn't be encouraging them.

Clubber 4y ago
Because many smokers, probably in the millions, have successfully used vapes to quit smoking. I would guess all this is propaganda to try to ban vapes but keep cigarettes legal. UK's NHS actually promotes vaping as a smoking cessation as policy. Here's the NHS page on e-cigarettes. You don't see the constant fear mongering you get from the US. I wonder why. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/quit-smoking/using-e-cigarettes-to-stop-smoking/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/quit-smoking/using-e-cigarettes... There is a financial incentive in the US for the government to do this based on the tobacco master settlement agreement in which the tobacco companies give the states money based on smoking rates. Lower smoking rates, less money in the budgets. Ban the most successful smoking cessation tool, get more money when people go back to smoking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agre... Edit: Source: 19% of people who used vapes to quit smoking still weren't smoking after a year. This compares to 9% for other cessation products. It's the most successful cessation product by more than double. https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/vaping/vaping-smoking-cessation-tool-pros-cons https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/vaping/vaping-smoking-... In 2019, there were approximately 50.6 million smokers, so it would be pretty easy to say at least a million people quit smoking using vapes with a 19% success rate. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33211681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33211681/ In 2022, there are nearly 40 million smokers, so in 3 years, over 10 million people quit. If just 10% of those who quit used vapes, that's a million. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm Unfortunately for me, I'm one of the people who quit smoking using Juul. As soon as they are banned, I will most likely go back to smoking. I wish that wasn't the case, but it probably will be. Bad for me, bad for you, great for state budgets.
- kube-system 4y ago
  If they’re a smoking cessation product, then we should require a prescription so that the companies pushing vapes don’t attract a new generation of users who have used neither.
  - Clubber 4y ago
    Ya perhaps. As long as it isn't over-burdensome like typical prescripts are, I'd say 1 prescription lasts a year. Nicorette used to require a prescription, but they stopped it after a decade or two. Of course that's not the objective. The objective is to ban it. That's why you won't hear any sensible dialog about it.
    - bena 4y ago
      Nicorette has the advantage of tasting bad. No one is going to buy it unless they want to quit smoking.
      - Clubber 4y ago
        Kids don't vape because it tastes good, they vape because of the nicotine. Cigarettes taste really bad, kids don't smoke because of the taste of cigarettes either, they smoke because of the nicotine. The whole candy flavor attracting kids is just some more BS IMO, kinda like the whole "pot is a gateway drug" thing. Also mint Nicorette taste pretty good.
        bena 4y ago
        If vaping tasted like unwashed ass, it would be far less popular. And smoking is a lot like coffee, some people do enjoy the taste/smell. And others like the effects more than they dislike the taste. So the fact that vaping tastes better than both Nicorette and cigarettes makes it an easier sell. No one is doing it because it tastes good, but because it tastes good, it's easier to start.
  - KMnO4 4y ago
photochemsyn 4y ago
Smoking cigarettes generates PAH (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) and the more you inhale, the more likely they are to cause cancer. Specifically benzo[a]pyrene has been shown to form DNA adducts, which can alter replication and generate cancer cells by damaging DNA elements involved in cell cycle control, or by damaging components of the immune system involved in normal detection and elimination of cancer cells. Vaping nicotine has some negative health effects, but there's no evidence it leads to lung cancer, because it doesn't generate those PAHs.
- munk-a 4y ago
  Yea so we're all in agreement that vaping isn't as bad as smoking - that doesn't change the OP's point that vaping is still bad and something we should probably seek to discourage. Young folks I've worked with vape a lot I've met people in their 20s that put people with chain smoking habits in their 50s to shame when it comes to stepping out to smoke/vape. Profiting off of driving an addiction with health side effect is abhorrent - to me at least.
popularrecluse 4y ago
Because vaping is an effective tool for quitting smoking, which is much worse. The physical improvements from smoking to vaping are pretty remarkable - everything from lung function to circulation and skin quality and general energy improves. It helped me quit my decade-plus long smoking habit, and I'm now 3+ years off of vaping as well. I hate to see vaping demonized, but I also don't particularly care to see kids take it up. It's just as, if not more addictive than cigarettes.
- daenz 4y ago
  Huh thanks, I didn't know so many vapers were ex smokers. I always thought it was some new fad.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    It started among ex-smokers, but moved to teens especially as it went from "specialty shops" to "in drug stores". At this point, the number of ex smokers is the minority.
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    Every vaper I know is an ex-smoker. But I'm also 40 so I don't know many people that would be taking something like this up as a new thing.
    - ev1 4y ago
      I'm close to ~half your age, and every vaper I know started vaping from clean-slate. Absolutely zero of them were ex-smokers or have ever touched a cigarette. I honestly cannot name a single ex-smoker in my circle or a degree or two removed - all of them started vaping to vape. Almost all of them started before 18. I don't know of a single person using it as a cessation device. Anecdotal, of course, but still, didn't expect such big of a difference compared to your post.
      - Clubber 4y ago
        How many of those people would have picked up cigarettes if vapes never existed? Probably a bunch.
KMnO4 4y ago
The “abstinence only” approach is proven to wholly ineffective. By all means, you shouldn’t encourage non-smokers to take up vaping, but encouraging smokers to switch to vaping is undoubtedly beneficial to their health. You can replace vaping with “any vice that can replace a similar vice but have less detrimental effects”. You can’t stop free will; you can only reduce the harm.
- daenz 4y ago
  >The “abstinence only” approach is proven to wholly ineffective. This isn't sex. There isn't a biological imperative to vape. Abstinence absolutely works with some things. Abstaining from ever trying heroin, for example, is a great way to never become a heroin addict.
  - t-writescode 4y ago
    > This isn't sex. True, but we tried "abstinence only" with The Prohibition, too, and that didn't work, either.
    - daenz 4y ago
      True, alcohol prohibition is an example of abstinence not working on something that also isn't biologically driven. I would argue that alcohol probably has too strong of cultural/social foothold for abstinence to work. I don't think smoking/vaping is on the level of alcohol though.
t-writescode 4y ago
Everything is bad for your body. At what level of danger do we start banning it (for adults)? Is vaping safer than alcohol?
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  Obesity kills more people than even smoking old fashioned cigarettes, so in my opinion it's all a farce. The government doesn't care about your health, they care about taking your money.
  - daenz 4y ago
    We've made it deeply unpopular to discourage obesity in society.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    Obesity is much harder to deal with. You can't stop eating food.
- daenz 4y ago
  >Everything is bad for your body. Slippery slope. Just because everything is some degree of bad, it doesn't mean there are very large differences in the degree of bad. Reasonable people are able to draw lines between those degrees and be roughly in sync with each other. The philosophical exercise of saying everything is bad is not very interesting to me.
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    >Just because everything is some degree of bad, it doesn't mean there are very large differences in the degree of bad. Says the guy that said: >Both are still bad for your body and we shouldn't be encouraging them Have you stopped to use your own logic for a second, and maybe conclude that encouraging smokers to quit via vaping (if they cannot otherwise) would be a good thing? Because they have very large differences in the degree of bad?
    - 4y ago
mimikatz 4y ago
It doesn't need "encouraging" consuming nicotine to feel good is something humans have done for centuries. People like nicotine, same way they like drinking, like smoking week, or like eating a donut. None of those things are healthy, but humans like it and like the way it makes us feel. It isn't about encouraging it, it is about driving demand to safer pathways.

by daenz 4y ago

>In any case, vaping is UNQUESTIONABLY better than smoking cigarettes. Why does this matter though? Both are still bad for your body and we shouldn't be encouraging them.

Clubber 4y ago

Because many smokers, probably in the millions, have successfully used vapes to quit smoking. I would guess all this is propaganda to try to ban vapes but keep cigarettes legal. UK's NHS actually promotes vaping as a smoking cessation as policy. Here's the NHS page on e-cigarettes. You don't see the constant fear mongering you get from the US. I wonder why. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/quit-smoking/using-e-cigarettes-to-stop-smoking/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/quit-smoking/using-e-cigarettes... There is a financial incentive in the US for the government to do this based on the tobacco master settlement agreement in which the tobacco companies give the states money based on smoking rates. Lower smoking rates, less money in the budgets. Ban the most successful smoking cessation tool, get more money when people go back to smoking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agre... Edit: Source: 19% of people who used vapes to quit smoking still weren't smoking after a year. This compares to 9% for other cessation products. It's the most successful cessation product by more than double. https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/vaping/vaping-smoking-cessation-tool-pros-cons https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/vaping/vaping-smoking-... In 2019, there were approximately 50.6 million smokers, so it would be pretty easy to say at least a million people quit smoking using vapes with a 19% success rate. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33211681/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33211681/ In 2022, there are nearly 40 million smokers, so in 3 years, over 10 million people quit. If just 10% of those who quit used vapes, that's a million. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm Unfortunately for me, I'm one of the people who quit smoking using Juul. As soon as they are banned, I will most likely go back to smoking. I wish that wasn't the case, but it probably will be. Bad for me, bad for you, great for state budgets.

kube-system 4y ago
If they’re a smoking cessation product, then we should require a prescription so that the companies pushing vapes don’t attract a new generation of users who have used neither.
- Clubber 4y ago
  Ya perhaps. As long as it isn't over-burdensome like typical prescripts are, I'd say 1 prescription lasts a year. Nicorette used to require a prescription, but they stopped it after a decade or two. Of course that's not the objective. The objective is to ban it. That's why you won't hear any sensible dialog about it.
  - bena 4y ago
    Nicorette has the advantage of tasting bad. No one is going to buy it unless they want to quit smoking.
    - Clubber 4y ago
      Kids don't vape because it tastes good, they vape because of the nicotine. Cigarettes taste really bad, kids don't smoke because of the taste of cigarettes either, they smoke because of the nicotine. The whole candy flavor attracting kids is just some more BS IMO, kinda like the whole "pot is a gateway drug" thing. Also mint Nicorette taste pretty good.
      - bena 4y ago
        If vaping tasted like unwashed ass, it would be far less popular. And smoking is a lot like coffee, some people do enjoy the taste/smell. And others like the effects more than they dislike the taste. So the fact that vaping tastes better than both Nicorette and cigarettes makes it an easier sell. No one is doing it because it tastes good, but because it tastes good, it's easier to start.
- KMnO4 4y ago

photochemsyn 4y ago

Smoking cigarettes generates PAH (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) and the more you inhale, the more likely they are to cause cancer. Specifically benzo[a]pyrene has been shown to form DNA adducts, which can alter replication and generate cancer cells by damaging DNA elements involved in cell cycle control, or by damaging components of the immune system involved in normal detection and elimination of cancer cells. Vaping nicotine has some negative health effects, but there's no evidence it leads to lung cancer, because it doesn't generate those PAHs.

munk-a 4y ago
Yea so we're all in agreement that vaping isn't as bad as smoking - that doesn't change the OP's point that vaping is still bad and something we should probably seek to discourage. Young folks I've worked with vape a lot I've met people in their 20s that put people with chain smoking habits in their 50s to shame when it comes to stepping out to smoke/vape. Profiting off of driving an addiction with health side effect is abhorrent - to me at least.

popularrecluse 4y ago

Because vaping is an effective tool for quitting smoking, which is much worse. The physical improvements from smoking to vaping are pretty remarkable - everything from lung function to circulation and skin quality and general energy improves. It helped me quit my decade-plus long smoking habit, and I'm now 3+ years off of vaping as well. I hate to see vaping demonized, but I also don't particularly care to see kids take it up. It's just as, if not more addictive than cigarettes.

daenz 4y ago
Huh thanks, I didn't know so many vapers were ex smokers. I always thought it was some new fad.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  It started among ex-smokers, but moved to teens especially as it went from "specialty shops" to "in drug stores". At this point, the number of ex smokers is the minority.
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  Every vaper I know is an ex-smoker. But I'm also 40 so I don't know many people that would be taking something like this up as a new thing.
  - ev1 4y ago
    I'm close to ~half your age, and every vaper I know started vaping from clean-slate. Absolutely zero of them were ex-smokers or have ever touched a cigarette. I honestly cannot name a single ex-smoker in my circle or a degree or two removed - all of them started vaping to vape. Almost all of them started before 18. I don't know of a single person using it as a cessation device. Anecdotal, of course, but still, didn't expect such big of a difference compared to your post.
    - Clubber 4y ago
      How many of those people would have picked up cigarettes if vapes never existed? Probably a bunch.

KMnO4 4y ago

The “abstinence only” approach is proven to wholly ineffective. By all means, you shouldn’t encourage non-smokers to take up vaping, but encouraging smokers to switch to vaping is undoubtedly beneficial to their health. You can replace vaping with “any vice that can replace a similar vice but have less detrimental effects”. You can’t stop free will; you can only reduce the harm.

daenz 4y ago
>The “abstinence only” approach is proven to wholly ineffective. This isn't sex. There isn't a biological imperative to vape. Abstinence absolutely works with some things. Abstaining from ever trying heroin, for example, is a great way to never become a heroin addict.
- t-writescode 4y ago
  > This isn't sex. True, but we tried "abstinence only" with The Prohibition, too, and that didn't work, either.
  - daenz 4y ago
    True, alcohol prohibition is an example of abstinence not working on something that also isn't biologically driven. I would argue that alcohol probably has too strong of cultural/social foothold for abstinence to work. I don't think smoking/vaping is on the level of alcohol though.

t-writescode 4y ago

Everything is bad for your body. At what level of danger do we start banning it (for adults)? Is vaping safer than alcohol?

oceanplexian 4y ago
Obesity kills more people than even smoking old fashioned cigarettes, so in my opinion it's all a farce. The government doesn't care about your health, they care about taking your money.
- daenz 4y ago
  We've made it deeply unpopular to discourage obesity in society.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  Obesity is much harder to deal with. You can't stop eating food.
daenz 4y ago
>Everything is bad for your body. Slippery slope. Just because everything is some degree of bad, it doesn't mean there are very large differences in the degree of bad. Reasonable people are able to draw lines between those degrees and be roughly in sync with each other. The philosophical exercise of saying everything is bad is not very interesting to me.
- ziddoap 4y ago
  >Just because everything is some degree of bad, it doesn't mean there are very large differences in the degree of bad. Says the guy that said: >Both are still bad for your body and we shouldn't be encouraging them Have you stopped to use your own logic for a second, and maybe conclude that encouraging smokers to quit via vaping (if they cannot otherwise) would be a good thing? Because they have very large differences in the degree of bad?
  - 4y ago

mimikatz 4y ago

It doesn't need "encouraging" consuming nicotine to feel good is something humans have done for centuries. People like nicotine, same way they like drinking, like smoking week, or like eating a donut. None of those things are healthy, but humans like it and like the way it makes us feel. It isn't about encouraging it, it is about driving demand to safer pathways.