5 ms·

Not only is there burn-out on the job, but could there also be interviewing burn-out? In the software industry, you're doing yourself a disservice by staying a

Not only is there burn-out on the job, but could there also be interviewing burn-out? In the software industry, you're doing yourself a disservice by staying at a company for more than 3 years. Even 2 years is pushing it, that is unless you are seeing wage increases that match or exceed inflation. And even if you haven't reached that amount of time, it's smart to start applying and interviewing earlier so you can have a better pick by the time you're ready to get out. I know some on HN will deny this, but I've seen enough resumes and LinkedIn profiles that demonstrate otherwise. Hence, many of us are in a sort of medium-frequency cycle of interviewing. Applying for jobs becomes a job in and of itself, and as someone going through that process right now, I think the process has gotten much worse. Not only are you likely to go through 3 to 4 rounds of interviews for a given employer, but now you've got to do take-home assignments. Most of the time, the estimated duration they provide is an understatement, especially if you actually want to show your best work. I've had 3 so far that wanted me to do a take-home assignment that they said could take several hours and even days. I refuse to do any that are estimated to be longer than 2 hours at this point. The other person is likely an introvert and sucks at interviewing, which can ruin your chances if they perceive the interview as not having gone well. In either case, you probably won't be hired at that place anyway. Now multiply that experience by around 30% of the applications you've sent out. To have enough options on the table, you've got to send out at least 40+ applications (unless you've got a connection at a company already). Not only are you having to fight off all those other applicants, but you're spending a lot of your free time doing so. Let's not forget the hours you'll also now have to spend hammering through Leetcode so you don't look like a complete fool in front of unrealistic problems you wouldn't be expected to complete in under an hour in real life. Who actually doesn't dread facing this every few years? I want to work in my field, but part of me also feels like saying "screw this" in favor of living in a van down by the river. Having experience might land you a better salary, but when you switch companies it's like being a junior developer all over again. I can only imagine how much it sucks for someone who has a family and kids.

ryandrake 4y ago
I have a family and kid and hobbies and an already-demanding (time-wise) job and can absolutely say that the current high-friction hazing ritual style of tech interviewing dissuades me from looking around, even though I know I could make more by going through Thunderdome again. Even with recruiters reaching out and starting the process, interviewing is a grueling “second full-time job”.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  It’s not that the interviews themselves are so terrible. I’m just a bit tired of random people saying I’m not a good fit because I couldn’t answer a specific question to their satisfaction. I’ve been a valuable member of the team at my current company, and have received a mix of raises and promotions. I’m inclined to believe I’d do equally well elsewhere, but I first have to prove in a few hours what the past few years apparently couldn’t…
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    Yeah, the nitpicky rejection cycles starts to feel like an industry wide mixture of gaslighting and almost intentional impostor syndrome creation tools. All the statistics of people in FAANG/GAFAM roles that feel stuck in them because they are certain they'd not pass the interview cycle again if they left. All the statistics of "dark matter" developers that are continually harassed by FAANG/GAFAM recruiters to interview but then continually ghosted without feedback following the interviews. Lots of mentions of how much it resembles hazing rituals, and that also seems to be the intent of many hazing rituals: gaslight about the relative strengths of "the in group" and build survivorship bias among those that make it into "the in group" and survive the hazing rituals.
ipaddr 4y ago
I went through this recently and by the time we reached the last stages of the process I've lost interest. I realized I literally need to be unemployed to bother going through all of these useless stages. Things I realized: The pay that is in the ad is always lower. That recruitor who won't go away just wants you part of a funnel they get paid for, if the company really wanted you they would just make an offer. Ghosting after sending a long take home tests is more common than ghosting after a regular interview.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Ghosting after a take home test really bites. Either provide feedback or give an expectation on how long it will take to make a decision. Don't make me do free work and leave me hanging. But yeah, it does happen. I used to advocate for take home assignments, but now I really don't know what the answer is for directly assessing skill. Leetcode sucks, but take home assignments have their own problems. Maybe the problem with both approaches is that there really is no sort of standardization of practices or measurement of success that I'm aware of.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    Lawyers take a Bar exam until they pass it and then never have to take it again. They just have to stay up-to-date/active with the associated Bar (so many hours of training a year; etc). Real Engineers take a Fundamentals of Engineering exam followed by the Professional Engineering exam in their discipline/focus. Then Engineers have to stay with the associated Professional Society (so many hours of training a year; paying dues; etc). In the Software industry we love using the title "Engineer", but we don't seem to want to put the work in to make it an actual engineering profession. There is a software PE exam and professional society in existence already (ACM) built and willing to be the professional society for software engineering. I would take the Software PE exam and pay my ACM member dues in a heartbeat if that meant never needing to do another leetcode or take home assignment or whiteboard exercise in an interview cycle. We have the tools to solve this, just not the will to solve it, it seems.
    - 4y ago
WorldMaker 4y ago
I spent 8 hours on a Saturday the other weekend on a take home assignment and then spent most of Sunday regretting it and angry with myself that I'd let that eat into my weekend so much. The least companies could do is compensate this useless labor. Interviewing also has been putting me into a spot where I'm starting to wonder if changing professions entirely may be less work. I wish this profession would grow up. The hazing requirements of every interview cycle are so childish and immature and so perpetually stuck in "college bro culture". If we want a test before jobs, let's make it a standardized test you only need to take once in your career like a real profession would have. So many interviewers would appreciate the principal of DRY and yet as an industry we can't abstract away this menial repetitivity that other industries solved centuries ago?
- adrianmsmith 4y ago
  > The least companies could do is compensate this useless labor. I've found having the company present when you do the test, i.e. screensharing or whatever, is a good compromise. You can talk about the problem, and you know they've got some (time) skin in the game. The tests become shorter when this is the case, e.g. 1 hour rather than 8 hours. Because they don't want to spend 8 hours sitting there while you do the test. They're not going to invite 100 candidates to do that test if they only have one position open, but if they send out the test and you complete it on your own time they might.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    That's just it, it's a power imbalance that favors the company and not the interviewee. Most cases when I've requested accommodations or told interviewers that I don't have time for their take home tests, I've gotten back: "Well, start over again in a year or so when you do think you have time. Let us know when that is, kthxbye." Even from companies "desperate" to fill roles according to recruiters. Many of those roles I'm fine with that too, if they want to waste my time on a lengthy take home assignment and a bunch of free labor that truly benefits neither of us, maybe it isn't the right role for me. Many of those roles I do the free labor anyway and regret it and it negatively influences any interest I have in further next steps and/or my entire opinion of the company. (I will absolutely shit talk the companies that have most wasted my time in interview processes.) There's not a lot I can do about that power imbalance other than point to the fact that it is deeply systemic and wish that we'd mature the industry to better systems.

ryandrake 4y ago

I have a family and kid and hobbies and an already-demanding (time-wise) job and can absolutely say that the current high-friction hazing ritual style of tech interviewing dissuades me from looking around, even though I know I could make more by going through Thunderdome again. Even with recruiters reaching out and starting the process, interviewing is a grueling “second full-time job”.

Aeolun 4y ago
It’s not that the interviews themselves are so terrible. I’m just a bit tired of random people saying I’m not a good fit because I couldn’t answer a specific question to their satisfaction. I’ve been a valuable member of the team at my current company, and have received a mix of raises and promotions. I’m inclined to believe I’d do equally well elsewhere, but I first have to prove in a few hours what the past few years apparently couldn’t…
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Yeah, the nitpicky rejection cycles starts to feel like an industry wide mixture of gaslighting and almost intentional impostor syndrome creation tools. All the statistics of people in FAANG/GAFAM roles that feel stuck in them because they are certain they'd not pass the interview cycle again if they left. All the statistics of "dark matter" developers that are continually harassed by FAANG/GAFAM recruiters to interview but then continually ghosted without feedback following the interviews. Lots of mentions of how much it resembles hazing rituals, and that also seems to be the intent of many hazing rituals: gaslight about the relative strengths of "the in group" and build survivorship bias among those that make it into "the in group" and survive the hazing rituals.

ipaddr 4y ago

I went through this recently and by the time we reached the last stages of the process I've lost interest. I realized I literally need to be unemployed to bother going through all of these useless stages. Things I realized: The pay that is in the ad is always lower. That recruitor who won't go away just wants you part of a funnel they get paid for, if the company really wanted you they would just make an offer. Ghosting after sending a long take home tests is more common than ghosting after a regular interview.

ravenstine 4y ago
Ghosting after a take home test really bites. Either provide feedback or give an expectation on how long it will take to make a decision. Don't make me do free work and leave me hanging. But yeah, it does happen. I used to advocate for take home assignments, but now I really don't know what the answer is for directly assessing skill. Leetcode sucks, but take home assignments have their own problems. Maybe the problem with both approaches is that there really is no sort of standardization of practices or measurement of success that I'm aware of.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Lawyers take a Bar exam until they pass it and then never have to take it again. They just have to stay up-to-date/active with the associated Bar (so many hours of training a year; etc). Real Engineers take a Fundamentals of Engineering exam followed by the Professional Engineering exam in their discipline/focus. Then Engineers have to stay with the associated Professional Society (so many hours of training a year; paying dues; etc). In the Software industry we love using the title "Engineer", but we don't seem to want to put the work in to make it an actual engineering profession. There is a software PE exam and professional society in existence already (ACM) built and willing to be the professional society for software engineering. I would take the Software PE exam and pay my ACM member dues in a heartbeat if that meant never needing to do another leetcode or take home assignment or whiteboard exercise in an interview cycle. We have the tools to solve this, just not the will to solve it, it seems.
  - 4y ago

WorldMaker 4y ago

I spent 8 hours on a Saturday the other weekend on a take home assignment and then spent most of Sunday regretting it and angry with myself that I'd let that eat into my weekend so much. The least companies could do is compensate this useless labor. Interviewing also has been putting me into a spot where I'm starting to wonder if changing professions entirely may be less work. I wish this profession would grow up. The hazing requirements of every interview cycle are so childish and immature and so perpetually stuck in "college bro culture". If we want a test before jobs, let's make it a standardized test you only need to take once in your career like a real profession would have. So many interviewers would appreciate the principal of DRY and yet as an industry we can't abstract away this menial repetitivity that other industries solved centuries ago?

adrianmsmith 4y ago
> The least companies could do is compensate this useless labor. I've found having the company present when you do the test, i.e. screensharing or whatever, is a good compromise. You can talk about the problem, and you know they've got some (time) skin in the game. The tests become shorter when this is the case, e.g. 1 hour rather than 8 hours. Because they don't want to spend 8 hours sitting there while you do the test. They're not going to invite 100 candidates to do that test if they only have one position open, but if they send out the test and you complete it on your own time they might.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  That's just it, it's a power imbalance that favors the company and not the interviewee. Most cases when I've requested accommodations or told interviewers that I don't have time for their take home tests, I've gotten back: "Well, start over again in a year or so when you do think you have time. Let us know when that is, kthxbye." Even from companies "desperate" to fill roles according to recruiters. Many of those roles I'm fine with that too, if they want to waste my time on a lengthy take home assignment and a bunch of free labor that truly benefits neither of us, maybe it isn't the right role for me. Many of those roles I do the free labor anyway and regret it and it negatively influences any interest I have in further next steps and/or my entire opinion of the company. (I will absolutely shit talk the companies that have most wasted my time in interview processes.) There's not a lot I can do about that power imbalance other than point to the fact that it is deeply systemic and wish that we'd mature the industry to better systems.