11 ms·

Google Engineer: What I learned in the war

232 points by andrewvalish 15y ago

rdl 15y ago
From what I've heard, Google does a particularly good job of taking care of reservists (there are federal laws about not firing, but good companies go beyond this). Outside of government contracting (where it makes a lot of business sense to hire reservists or former military), there don't seem to be a large number of reservists/national guard in the tech community; almost more foreign-country-compulsory-service veterans (from Israel, etc.) than US veterans. Kind of a loss for the military, because tech startups are a great preparation for actual deployed military operations (which are basically the opposite of the peacetime bureaucracy). As well, the military is a more diverse organization in the US than almost any tech company -- it's a great way to get underrepresented minorities involved.
- rhizome 15y ago
  I see US military people on IRC sometimes. They're around, but I agree, not much.
- chimeracoder 15y ago
  > As well, the military is a more diverse organization in the US than almost any tech company. Agreed. I always get irritated when I see people referring to the military as some homogeneous, white-Protestant, politically conservative institution. It's very much not the case. Dan, the subject of this article, studied at Columbia, which has an incredibly large veteran population in the undergraduate student body. From my experience at Columbia, the GS veterans come from an incredibly diverse range of background (racial diversity being just one aspect of that).
  - cobrausn 15y ago
    Regarding diversity in the military, I can only speak of my own experience, but when I was in the military I found it to be a very interesting atmosphere. Unlike the rest of the US, where race is an extremely touchy subject and anyone bringing it up walks on pins and needles, I found that the military was full of people from all kinds of backgrounds constantly needling each other with jokes, questions, and comments that in other company would be called 'racist', but nobody seemed to care - if anything, it seemed like we all learned a lot about each other this way. Only once did we ever really have a problem with a guy who was genuinely racist, and when someone said something about him, the higher-ups came down on him pretty hard. It took a lot to get to that point though - usually the enlisted men can deal with the problem themselves pretty well. Most people who enter the military racist drop that outlook very quickly.
    - matwood 15y ago
      I think in the military people become one more so than just being from the same country. Your shared experiences and understandings bind you together in a way that transcends race. It's similar concept in science fiction where the humans on earth usually stop fighting each other once they discover intelligent life off the planet.
      - rdl 15y ago
        There are actually a lot of people in the US military who are not even US citizens (and especially who were not citizens at entry) -- lots of people from US territories, the Philippines (especially in the Navy, to the point where they're considered a "mafia" in mid-ranks in some areas), etc. It's partially because it's a fast-track to US permanent residency and citizenship.
  - Dove 15y ago
    There is a wonderful PBS series called Carrier about life aboard an aircraft carrier. You can see full episodes (with ads) here: http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/full_episodes.htm http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/full_episodes.htm , or you can stream it via Netflix. It focuses heavily on the people, and their stories. The sheer diversity of the crowd is amazing.
  - _delirium 15y ago
    I always get irritated when I see people referring to the military as some homogeneous, white-Protestant, politically conservative institution. It's very much not the case. Oddly I usually hear the opposite stereotype: that the military is made up of minorities and poor whites. Also an oversimplification, though statistically has some truth to it (both minorities and poor whites are overrepresented relative to their shares in the population, because middle-class and upper-class whites are underrepresented). That's one reason that civil-rights activists like John Lewis have been pushing to reintroduce mandatory military service, since they argue that many of the well-off whites who also benefit from the U.S.'s military activities aren't equally shouldering the burden.
- dotBen 15y ago
  there don't seem to be a large number of reservists/national guard in the tech community; Why do you/others think this is? I'm not a US citizen, so that counts me out. But even so I wouldn't become a reservest because I feel I have a lot of unique and valuable skills (engineering, thought leadership in platforms, and media technology) that wouldn't be capitalizable by the military - certainly not as a reservist. I wouldn't feel I was utilizing my skills if I was a regular solider or even reservest officer. It's similar to volunteering for charity: rather than volunteer to work a day in a soup kitchen I would be able to bring far more value to a charity by just work for a day doing my normal job and then donating that day's pay to them. (yes you personally learn some good life skills volunteering but I'm talking about which is better for the charity) EDIT: perhaps folks who have downvoted me would like to leave a comment to help me understand where the skill capitalization for a tech founder/software engineer is in the reservists, seeing as they clearly feel I'm wrong.
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    > rather than volunteer to work a day in a soup kitchen I would be able to bring far more value to a charity by just work for a day doing my normal job and then donating that day's pay to them. so, have you done either of it?
    - dotBen 15y ago
      Yup, both.
  - rdl 15y ago
    I agree with some of your sentiment, but I think you don't have accurate information on all of the military. The big deal with the reserves/NG (in the Army, at least) is that there is a huge difference among units; the majority of army PSYOPs capability is actually in the reserve component, and is as good as anything in active duty; there are both active duty and reserve units in other specialties which are pretty widely regarded as incapable/ineffective. It kind of becomes an evaporative cooling thing -- good people who end up in bad units find ways to leave, and are attracted to great units. Basically the same as companies in the civilian world. In some cases, the services (and government as a whole, and big companies) don't take advantage of pre-existing skills or aptitudes. In other cases, they do -- there are incentive/recruiting/fast-track systems for certain types of professionals. They've gotten better about this since becoming an all-volunteer force vs. draft. The big problem is that there is a "military way" to do a lot of things, largely focused on big-vendor enterprise in the IT space, and you have to work within that. Getting affiliated with a lab, DARPA, etc. is probably the way to use more interesting tech. One problem I have personally is that they're very credential-focused; as a high school and college dropout, I'd be kind of screwed. Otherwise I'd be really interested in reserve/NG in certain specialties (psyops, civil affairs, infrastructure parts of embedded advisor teams, rotary/uav aviation, sigint, SAR, medical, diving). It would also be really difficult for a startup founder vs. an employee at a larger tech company. For the donation/volunteer argument, rather than just donating money, my plan is to do NGO work on the side, and hopefully eventually be able to set up a specialty communications-in-conflict/disaster zones infrastructure NGO. A lot of charities ARE saddled by large numbers of unskilled volunteers (or at least without specific relevant skills), and structure their operations to be labor vs. skill intensive.
- easp 15y ago
  there don't seem to be a large number of reservists/national guard in the tech community The economically disadvantaged seem to be overrepresented in the military because of a lack of better options. Techies generally have better options (yes, there are other reasons to join the military).
jlyke 15y ago
Excellent read, thanks for sharing.
- entropie 15y ago
  I totally agree. Thanks for sharing.
cletus 15y ago
I've briefly met Dan. I work in the same office and some months ago we were in the same class where he was talking about his time in the Marine Corps. I often hear him when I'm in the micro-kitchen. So while I don't know him you quickly get a sense of who he is. Grounded, humble, practical, having integrity and he has some amazing stories. I had no idea about the full details of his story (from this article) but it's really fascinating. It's just such a totally different world to the one that the rest of us, myself included, mostly take for granted. I'm also glad to be working for a company that does go out of its way to support veterans and reservists.
- jebblue 15y ago
  He does a very commendable job of representing the best about the military and service that I remember.
thorie 15y ago
I like the point he made about not giving exact instructions on taking a box from point A to B. Looks like it's better to hire smart, capable people and not micromanage them - than it is to hire cheap people and tell them exactly what to do.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  you're forgetting that it is military. "Deliver the box to point B" is an order, and non-execution of an order isn't an option. Nothing brings out and motivates creativity in people as effectively as real necessity does. http://www.nationaljournal.com/the-homemade-weapons-of-libya-s-rebel-forces-20110615 http://www.nationaljournal.com/the-homemade-weapons-of-libya... Edit: the precision is a "must-have" of a military order (and is the responsibility of the CO, dual to the responsibility of underlings to carry out the order) and must not be mistaken for micromanagment while absence of micromanagment must not be mistaken for vagueness, what is frequently happens in the non-military, especially corporate, environment where such duality of responsibilities is frequently not recognized/enforced.
- hugh3 15y ago
  Many of the enlisted men in the military aren't all that smart, and most of 'em are pretty darn cheap. If there's a takeaway lesson it's that even not-so-smart, cheap-to-hire people are actually surprisingly capable of doing stuff, if you create a management environment where they have to do it and know they aren't gonna get any mollycoddling from the higher-ups. Here is the task. Go do it. Come back to me when it's done.
  - rdl 15y ago
    The argument of elite selection vs. elite training is interesting. I think USMC, particularly in WW2 and in general during the draft period, had general-population induction, but through training and organization produced an elite force. Other elite units, like the Navy SEALs, seem to focus on elite recruitment and selection. I'm not sure which works better for a tech company. Clearly only the USMC process scales once you need to hire a lot of people.
codeslush 15y ago
I spent four years in the U.S.M.C in the enlisted ranks. This article is an interesting read, but only really scratches the surface of what one learns in the military. I didn't spend a single day in a war zone, and still learned patience and acceptance. I also learned much, much more - and they are skills that have helped me in my civilian life - personally and professionally. I won't enumerate everything here; if I tried, I would fail. But I will attempt to highlight many of those that repeatedly surface: 1. Attention to detail. I don't think it matters what your military occupation is, you will certainly be subjected to this, at least in the Marines. It starts with boot camp, and continues through your career. The little things make a big difference. While some of the military training tactics leave you, this one seems to stay - at least that's been my experience. 2. Initiative. If something doesn't look right, can be done better, needs to be done - do it! I don't even think I recognized this was instilled in me until I was back in the civilian sector. It does wonders for a career! 3. Respect. Respect for everyone - above, beside and below you. This was especially difficult for me during my first two years of enlistment. I thought I knew it all. The promotion structure in the military has a huge time factor built into it. For me, I thought many of those of higher rank were ignorant. Guess what? It doesn't matter! You learn to respect them. You learn to understand you're ignorant too. You learn how to work with all different types of personalities, levels of intelligence, ethnicity, etc... - and you learn how to respect each of them for what they bring to the table. You never know what a person has been through to get to where they are now or why they make the decisions they make. There is almost always a reason. Respect them enough to try to understand. This has allowed me to work with and for all types of people in the civilian sector and I somehow manage to get along with almost everyone. In the rare event that I don't get along with someone, I'm able to deal with it without trashing them. It's usually representative of some flaw of my own anyway. 4. Camaraderie. Especially true during times of war, but also true in times of peace. The "bond" Dan spoke about comes from a lot of factors, but they all boil down to difficult, common experiences and trust. Civilians don't always understand some of the methods in which these bonds are created. By the time I got my blood stripes pinned on, it was not an accepted practice because of media exposure. But I wanted to earn them and my unit allowed it. It's a hazing ritual that is very painful to go through. My wife thought I was nuts. I feel that I earned those stripes and I know my unit had my back during the process. You've seen stories in the media where some of these events have gone bad. Examples include: Blood/Wing Pinning and Shellback Ceremony. I would suggest boot camp is largely a hazing ritual in and of itself. Controversial as it may be, I believe these rituals play an important part in the life of a soldier. It may not look good on TV, but neither does some of the stuff that happens while fighting for your life in the middle of a battle (things I know nothing about). 5. Tenacity. Everything isn't always easy. You don't quit at something just because it is hard or because you can't figure it out or because someone pissed you off. Keep pressing forward. 6. Integrity. Integrity is more than just telling the truth. It's being the truth. It's being true to you and to your (fill in the blank). It's being professional. It's standing up for people when they aren't there to stand up for themselves. It's not gossiping. It's not trying to cheat to get ahead of the next person. It's about doing your best and when success comes, you know you earned it honestly. 7. Adapt and overcome. Speaks for itself. Some of the comments here speculate about why the military doesn't have a larger tech representation. Other comments question the intellectual capacity of some of the soldiers. Let me say this: I worked with some of the smartest people of my life while in the Marines. I worked with some of the more challenged too. I worked with some of the smartest people in my life while in the civilian sector. I worked with some of the more challenged too. I didn't reenlist for two primary reasons: (1) I wanted to make more money as a provider for my family and (2) I didn't want to relocate my family every two or three years. Yesterday represented 16 years since my last day of active duty service, and I can reflect back and say it was one of the best experiences of my life. Happy Veteran's Day to all past and present military members.
mkramlich 15y ago
Well-written and concise. And not a typical topic for HN. Yet still related.
plinkplonk 15y ago
(I hope I get the tone right on this. I don't mean to insult any person or institution) The interesting thing here is how military service is respected to such a high degree, bordering on worship, in the United States. Other countries have voluntary armies too,and yes soldiers get some respect as people who do a necessary and dangerous job, but you don't see the "start your conversation with "Thank You for your service" " style everyday deference outside the United States. This is a little baffling to a non American,especially since America's wars post WW2 are mostly invasions of random third world countries against underequipped,and mostly untrained enemies, and even then the victory/defeat ratio is very mixed. Genuine question, why does a soldier deserve so much more respect than a doctor or teacher or fireman or policeman or engineer? Specifically wrt the article under discussion,(to a non American) this article is a generic feel good article which doesn't say very much at all. (I am sure Dan is a great person. Just saying there wasn't (imo) much meat to the article).
- jboydyhacker 15y ago
  Well they get a special amount of respect for two reasons. The obvious one is that they offer to give up their life in the service of their country. The second reason is, in the past it's been viewed as a far less lucrative career. So while we might all be making a ton of money in Silicon Valley- these guys are in Afghanistan risking their lives (irrespective of your support of a particular war, the sacrifice is still being made). Also, there is still a lingering guilt over how servicemen were treated returning home from Vietnam. That still informs how the military is viewed as being owed a bit more respect than say an investment banker.
  - plinkplonk 15y ago
    "The obvious one is that they offer to give up their life in the service of their country." Sure, but how is this particularly unique? Every country has people who do exactly that and they don't get this degree of deference on HN. Just as an example,this is true for the Afghani insurgent who tries to blow up Americans, or a member of the Viet Cong. I am sure they see the(ir respective) wars as a fight for independence against evil rapacious invaders. The Redcoat who served in the American War of Independence (the English Army, not the Hessians etc) was risking his life for King and Country. Do we (or should we) unequivocally respect anyone who risks their lives for a "higher" cause and low pay? As a thought experiment, if an Afghani hacker who joined the Taliban were to write a "What I learned from ten years of Jihad" article, would that be on the front page of HN? (hmm that might be an interesting article. I probably wouldn't agree with it, but it would be interesting ) Your other points are very helpful, specifically the one about the Vietnam backlash. I think I understand better now.Thank You.
rcthompson 15y ago
Interesting perspective on the fluidity of the chain of command. I think the stereotypical view of military life is that you "just follow orders", orders that are spelled out down to the last detail, rather than "Go solve this problem, and I trust you to figure out the best way to do it".
01Michael10 15y ago
I almost chocked on my cereal after reading the first paragraph of this article. The author appeared to be really suggesting that a person should consider taking a active duty stint in a war zone to learn things one can't else where to further their career goals? I hope some kid isn't reading this propaganda. War is not like playing the Call of Duty 4 game! I am thinking Dan Cross, the Google engineer would have had a different perspective on his active duty time if his legs had been blown off... Really, there are other things one can do to learn the same lessens. Say like the Peace Corps...

232 points by andrewvalish 15y ago

rdl 15y ago

From what I've heard, Google does a particularly good job of taking care of reservists (there are federal laws about not firing, but good companies go beyond this). Outside of government contracting (where it makes a lot of business sense to hire reservists or former military), there don't seem to be a large number of reservists/national guard in the tech community; almost more foreign-country-compulsory-service veterans (from Israel, etc.) than US veterans. Kind of a loss for the military, because tech startups are a great preparation for actual deployed military operations (which are basically the opposite of the peacetime bureaucracy). As well, the military is a more diverse organization in the US than almost any tech company -- it's a great way to get underrepresented minorities involved.

rhizome 15y ago
I see US military people on IRC sometimes. They're around, but I agree, not much.
chimeracoder 15y ago
> As well, the military is a more diverse organization in the US than almost any tech company. Agreed. I always get irritated when I see people referring to the military as some homogeneous, white-Protestant, politically conservative institution. It's very much not the case. Dan, the subject of this article, studied at Columbia, which has an incredibly large veteran population in the undergraduate student body. From my experience at Columbia, the GS veterans come from an incredibly diverse range of background (racial diversity being just one aspect of that).
- cobrausn 15y ago
  Regarding diversity in the military, I can only speak of my own experience, but when I was in the military I found it to be a very interesting atmosphere. Unlike the rest of the US, where race is an extremely touchy subject and anyone bringing it up walks on pins and needles, I found that the military was full of people from all kinds of backgrounds constantly needling each other with jokes, questions, and comments that in other company would be called 'racist', but nobody seemed to care - if anything, it seemed like we all learned a lot about each other this way. Only once did we ever really have a problem with a guy who was genuinely racist, and when someone said something about him, the higher-ups came down on him pretty hard. It took a lot to get to that point though - usually the enlisted men can deal with the problem themselves pretty well. Most people who enter the military racist drop that outlook very quickly.
  - matwood 15y ago
    I think in the military people become one more so than just being from the same country. Your shared experiences and understandings bind you together in a way that transcends race. It's similar concept in science fiction where the humans on earth usually stop fighting each other once they discover intelligent life off the planet.
    - rdl 15y ago
      There are actually a lot of people in the US military who are not even US citizens (and especially who were not citizens at entry) -- lots of people from US territories, the Philippines (especially in the Navy, to the point where they're considered a "mafia" in mid-ranks in some areas), etc. It's partially because it's a fast-track to US permanent residency and citizenship.
- Dove 15y ago
  There is a wonderful PBS series called Carrier about life aboard an aircraft carrier. You can see full episodes (with ads) here: http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/full_episodes.htm http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/full_episodes.htm , or you can stream it via Netflix. It focuses heavily on the people, and their stories. The sheer diversity of the crowd is amazing.
- _delirium 15y ago
  I always get irritated when I see people referring to the military as some homogeneous, white-Protestant, politically conservative institution. It's very much not the case. Oddly I usually hear the opposite stereotype: that the military is made up of minorities and poor whites. Also an oversimplification, though statistically has some truth to it (both minorities and poor whites are overrepresented relative to their shares in the population, because middle-class and upper-class whites are underrepresented). That's one reason that civil-rights activists like John Lewis have been pushing to reintroduce mandatory military service, since they argue that many of the well-off whites who also benefit from the U.S.'s military activities aren't equally shouldering the burden.
dotBen 15y ago
there don't seem to be a large number of reservists/national guard in the tech community; Why do you/others think this is? I'm not a US citizen, so that counts me out. But even so I wouldn't become a reservest because I feel I have a lot of unique and valuable skills (engineering, thought leadership in platforms, and media technology) that wouldn't be capitalizable by the military - certainly not as a reservist. I wouldn't feel I was utilizing my skills if I was a regular solider or even reservest officer. It's similar to volunteering for charity: rather than volunteer to work a day in a soup kitchen I would be able to bring far more value to a charity by just work for a day doing my normal job and then donating that day's pay to them. (yes you personally learn some good life skills volunteering but I'm talking about which is better for the charity) EDIT: perhaps folks who have downvoted me would like to leave a comment to help me understand where the skill capitalization for a tech founder/software engineer is in the reservists, seeing as they clearly feel I'm wrong.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  > rather than volunteer to work a day in a soup kitchen I would be able to bring far more value to a charity by just work for a day doing my normal job and then donating that day's pay to them. so, have you done either of it?
  - dotBen 15y ago
    Yup, both.
- rdl 15y ago
  I agree with some of your sentiment, but I think you don't have accurate information on all of the military. The big deal with the reserves/NG (in the Army, at least) is that there is a huge difference among units; the majority of army PSYOPs capability is actually in the reserve component, and is as good as anything in active duty; there are both active duty and reserve units in other specialties which are pretty widely regarded as incapable/ineffective. It kind of becomes an evaporative cooling thing -- good people who end up in bad units find ways to leave, and are attracted to great units. Basically the same as companies in the civilian world. In some cases, the services (and government as a whole, and big companies) don't take advantage of pre-existing skills or aptitudes. In other cases, they do -- there are incentive/recruiting/fast-track systems for certain types of professionals. They've gotten better about this since becoming an all-volunteer force vs. draft. The big problem is that there is a "military way" to do a lot of things, largely focused on big-vendor enterprise in the IT space, and you have to work within that. Getting affiliated with a lab, DARPA, etc. is probably the way to use more interesting tech. One problem I have personally is that they're very credential-focused; as a high school and college dropout, I'd be kind of screwed. Otherwise I'd be really interested in reserve/NG in certain specialties (psyops, civil affairs, infrastructure parts of embedded advisor teams, rotary/uav aviation, sigint, SAR, medical, diving). It would also be really difficult for a startup founder vs. an employee at a larger tech company. For the donation/volunteer argument, rather than just donating money, my plan is to do NGO work on the side, and hopefully eventually be able to set up a specialty communications-in-conflict/disaster zones infrastructure NGO. A lot of charities ARE saddled by large numbers of unskilled volunteers (or at least without specific relevant skills), and structure their operations to be labor vs. skill intensive.
easp 15y ago
there don't seem to be a large number of reservists/national guard in the tech community The economically disadvantaged seem to be overrepresented in the military because of a lack of better options. Techies generally have better options (yes, there are other reasons to join the military).

jlyke 15y ago

Excellent read, thanks for sharing.

entropie 15y ago
I totally agree. Thanks for sharing.

cletus 15y ago

I've briefly met Dan. I work in the same office and some months ago we were in the same class where he was talking about his time in the Marine Corps. I often hear him when I'm in the micro-kitchen. So while I don't know him you quickly get a sense of who he is. Grounded, humble, practical, having integrity and he has some amazing stories. I had no idea about the full details of his story (from this article) but it's really fascinating. It's just such a totally different world to the one that the rest of us, myself included, mostly take for granted. I'm also glad to be working for a company that does go out of its way to support veterans and reservists.

jebblue 15y ago
He does a very commendable job of representing the best about the military and service that I remember.

thorie 15y ago

I like the point he made about not giving exact instructions on taking a box from point A to B. Looks like it's better to hire smart, capable people and not micromanage them - than it is to hire cheap people and tell them exactly what to do.

VladRussian 15y ago
you're forgetting that it is military. "Deliver the box to point B" is an order, and non-execution of an order isn't an option. Nothing brings out and motivates creativity in people as effectively as real necessity does. http://www.nationaljournal.com/the-homemade-weapons-of-libya-s-rebel-forces-20110615 http://www.nationaljournal.com/the-homemade-weapons-of-libya... Edit: the precision is a "must-have" of a military order (and is the responsibility of the CO, dual to the responsibility of underlings to carry out the order) and must not be mistaken for micromanagment while absence of micromanagment must not be mistaken for vagueness, what is frequently happens in the non-military, especially corporate, environment where such duality of responsibilities is frequently not recognized/enforced.
hugh3 15y ago
Many of the enlisted men in the military aren't all that smart, and most of 'em are pretty darn cheap. If there's a takeaway lesson it's that even not-so-smart, cheap-to-hire people are actually surprisingly capable of doing stuff, if you create a management environment where they have to do it and know they aren't gonna get any mollycoddling from the higher-ups. Here is the task. Go do it. Come back to me when it's done.
- rdl 15y ago
  The argument of elite selection vs. elite training is interesting. I think USMC, particularly in WW2 and in general during the draft period, had general-population induction, but through training and organization produced an elite force. Other elite units, like the Navy SEALs, seem to focus on elite recruitment and selection. I'm not sure which works better for a tech company. Clearly only the USMC process scales once you need to hire a lot of people.

codeslush 15y ago

I spent four years in the U.S.M.C in the enlisted ranks. This article is an interesting read, but only really scratches the surface of what one learns in the military. I didn't spend a single day in a war zone, and still learned patience and acceptance. I also learned much, much more - and they are skills that have helped me in my civilian life - personally and professionally. I won't enumerate everything here; if I tried, I would fail. But I will attempt to highlight many of those that repeatedly surface: 1. Attention to detail. I don't think it matters what your military occupation is, you will certainly be subjected to this, at least in the Marines. It starts with boot camp, and continues through your career. The little things make a big difference. While some of the military training tactics leave you, this one seems to stay - at least that's been my experience. 2. Initiative. If something doesn't look right, can be done better, needs to be done - do it! I don't even think I recognized this was instilled in me until I was back in the civilian sector. It does wonders for a career! 3. Respect. Respect for everyone - above, beside and below you. This was especially difficult for me during my first two years of enlistment. I thought I knew it all. The promotion structure in the military has a huge time factor built into it. For me, I thought many of those of higher rank were ignorant. Guess what? It doesn't matter! You learn to respect them. You learn to understand you're ignorant too. You learn how to work with all different types of personalities, levels of intelligence, ethnicity, etc... - and you learn how to respect each of them for what they bring to the table. You never know what a person has been through to get to where they are now or why they make the decisions they make. There is almost always a reason. Respect them enough to try to understand. This has allowed me to work with and for all types of people in the civilian sector and I somehow manage to get along with almost everyone. In the rare event that I don't get along with someone, I'm able to deal with it without trashing them. It's usually representative of some flaw of my own anyway. 4. Camaraderie. Especially true during times of war, but also true in times of peace. The "bond" Dan spoke about comes from a lot of factors, but they all boil down to difficult, common experiences and trust. Civilians don't always understand some of the methods in which these bonds are created. By the time I got my blood stripes pinned on, it was not an accepted practice because of media exposure. But I wanted to earn them and my unit allowed it. It's a hazing ritual that is very painful to go through. My wife thought I was nuts. I feel that I earned those stripes and I know my unit had my back during the process. You've seen stories in the media where some of these events have gone bad. Examples include: Blood/Wing Pinning and Shellback Ceremony. I would suggest boot camp is largely a hazing ritual in and of itself. Controversial as it may be, I believe these rituals play an important part in the life of a soldier. It may not look good on TV, but neither does some of the stuff that happens while fighting for your life in the middle of a battle (things I know nothing about). 5. Tenacity. Everything isn't always easy. You don't quit at something just because it is hard or because you can't figure it out or because someone pissed you off. Keep pressing forward. 6. Integrity. Integrity is more than just telling the truth. It's being the truth. It's being true to you and to your (fill in the blank). It's being professional. It's standing up for people when they aren't there to stand up for themselves. It's not gossiping. It's not trying to cheat to get ahead of the next person. It's about doing your best and when success comes, you know you earned it honestly. 7. Adapt and overcome. Speaks for itself. Some of the comments here speculate about why the military doesn't have a larger tech representation. Other comments question the intellectual capacity of some of the soldiers. Let me say this: I worked with some of the smartest people of my life while in the Marines. I worked with some of the more challenged too. I worked with some of the smartest people in my life while in the civilian sector. I worked with some of the more challenged too. I didn't reenlist for two primary reasons: (1) I wanted to make more money as a provider for my family and (2) I didn't want to relocate my family every two or three years. Yesterday represented 16 years since my last day of active duty service, and I can reflect back and say it was one of the best experiences of my life. Happy Veteran's Day to all past and present military members.

mkramlich 15y ago

Well-written and concise. And not a typical topic for HN. Yet still related.

plinkplonk 15y ago

(I hope I get the tone right on this. I don't mean to insult any person or institution) The interesting thing here is how military service is respected to such a high degree, bordering on worship, in the United States. Other countries have voluntary armies too,and yes soldiers get some respect as people who do a necessary and dangerous job, but you don't see the "start your conversation with "Thank You for your service" " style everyday deference outside the United States. This is a little baffling to a non American,especially since America's wars post WW2 are mostly invasions of random third world countries against underequipped,and mostly untrained enemies, and even then the victory/defeat ratio is very mixed. Genuine question, why does a soldier deserve so much more respect than a doctor or teacher or fireman or policeman or engineer? Specifically wrt the article under discussion,(to a non American) this article is a generic feel good article which doesn't say very much at all. (I am sure Dan is a great person. Just saying there wasn't (imo) much meat to the article).

jboydyhacker 15y ago
Well they get a special amount of respect for two reasons. The obvious one is that they offer to give up their life in the service of their country. The second reason is, in the past it's been viewed as a far less lucrative career. So while we might all be making a ton of money in Silicon Valley- these guys are in Afghanistan risking their lives (irrespective of your support of a particular war, the sacrifice is still being made). Also, there is still a lingering guilt over how servicemen were treated returning home from Vietnam. That still informs how the military is viewed as being owed a bit more respect than say an investment banker.
- plinkplonk 15y ago
  "The obvious one is that they offer to give up their life in the service of their country." Sure, but how is this particularly unique? Every country has people who do exactly that and they don't get this degree of deference on HN. Just as an example,this is true for the Afghani insurgent who tries to blow up Americans, or a member of the Viet Cong. I am sure they see the(ir respective) wars as a fight for independence against evil rapacious invaders. The Redcoat who served in the American War of Independence (the English Army, not the Hessians etc) was risking his life for King and Country. Do we (or should we) unequivocally respect anyone who risks their lives for a "higher" cause and low pay? As a thought experiment, if an Afghani hacker who joined the Taliban were to write a "What I learned from ten years of Jihad" article, would that be on the front page of HN? (hmm that might be an interesting article. I probably wouldn't agree with it, but it would be interesting ) Your other points are very helpful, specifically the one about the Vietnam backlash. I think I understand better now.Thank You.

rcthompson 15y ago

Interesting perspective on the fluidity of the chain of command. I think the stereotypical view of military life is that you "just follow orders", orders that are spelled out down to the last detail, rather than "Go solve this problem, and I trust you to figure out the best way to do it".

01Michael10 15y ago

I almost chocked on my cereal after reading the first paragraph of this article. The author appeared to be really suggesting that a person should consider taking a active duty stint in a war zone to learn things one can't else where to further their career goals? I hope some kid isn't reading this propaganda. War is not like playing the Call of Duty 4 game! I am thinking Dan Cross, the Google engineer would have had a different perspective on his active duty time if his legs had been blown off... Really, there are other things one can do to learn the same lessens. Say like the Peace Corps...