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MSCI ESG ratings: Tesla: A https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/tesla-inc/IID000000002594878 https://www.ms

MSCI ESG ratings: Tesla: A https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/tesla-inc/IID000000002594878 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings... Exxon: BBB https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/exxon-mobil-corporation/IID000000002127471 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings...

gnarbarian 4y ago
I was referring to this which happened a few months ago: https://esgreview.net/2022/07/06/is-exxonmobil-really-more-esg-friendly-than-tesla-2/ https://esgreview.net/2022/07/06/is-exxonmobil-really-more-e... https://seekingalpha.com/article/4516270-tesla-exxon-mobil-sp-500-esg-how-does-this-work https://seekingalpha.com/article/4516270-tesla-exxon-mobil-s...
sjaak 4y ago
Shell: AA https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/shell-plc/IID000000002137074 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings... Higher than TSLA
- gnarbarian 4y ago
  also Tesla is only average for the automotive industry which is mind-boggling.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Well why shouldn't they be? Most major auto makers are phasing out development of new ICE drivetrains, and phasing out ICE manufacturing altogether. Meanwhile Tesla is certainly not without criticism.
    - gnarbarian 4y ago
      >plans to phase out vs >never offered and never will offer isn't that criticism political in nature?
      - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
        YMMV on exactly what counts as "political", but I can easily imagine someone having an honest, good faith belief that investing in Toyota's transition to EVs is just as good for the planet as investing in Tesla's from-scratch EVs.
  - baobob 4y ago
    > To manufacture each EV battery, you must process > 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium > 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt > 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, 25,000 pounds of ore for copper > Digging up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust > For just - one - battery. https://twitter.com/brianroemmele/status/1503176565974216710 https://twitter.com/brianroemmele/status/1503176565974216710 Would appreciate a fact check if this is anyone's business here
    - gnarbarian 4y ago
      They can be recycled once we have a large install base
      - washbrain 4y ago
        Can they? I've seen people make this claim, but I've not seen it actually substantiated. Who has successfully recycled one, what was their yield, what was the cost?
        gnarbarian 4y ago
        https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling already happening
        washbrain 4y ago
        Cool! What are their yields? What are their costs?
        jjoonathan 4y ago
        The techniques that separate lithium from ore are extreme overkill for separating lithium from dead batteries. Recycling lithium is like mining lithium on easy mode: better yield and cost. If an EV can justify the raw resource extraction within one car lifetime -- and it can, handily -- it justifies the recycling. We should expect recycling to be (average EV lifetime) behind on the scale curve, though, which will make it a prime source for anti-EV talking points until the market saturates in a decade or two. > washbrain Ha, nice try.
  - cardanome 4y ago
    A electric cars are mostly a luxury item for rich people to feel better. Not sure why you think Tesla should have a good rating. They are harmful in that they are actively distracting from the proper solution: that people shouldn't have private cars. The environmental cost to produce car, the space they take up in the cities, in the end private car ownership can not be made sustainable even if they run on electric. Tech wont solve the climate crisis, only societal change will.
    - gnarbarian 4y ago
      I don't live in a city. I'm 20 miles from the nearest grocery store. I build real physical things with my hands that require physical materials like lumber to haul around. I can't haul 2000 lb of lumber on the back of my road bike.
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        gnarbarian 4y ago
      - cardanome 4y ago
        What would be the issue with just having your stuff delivered then? And yeah every rule needs exceptions, of course there should be ways to rent cars for special occasion, I am just against general private car ownership for most people. Edit: General private car ownership of people living in the cities that is
        gnarbarian 4y ago
        I think your view is skewed towards living in a city. your solution doesn't work for a number of reasons. if I wanted to go somewhere I would call an Uber and they would drive 20 or 30 miles to pick me up and then 40 or 50 miles more to drop me off and then the reverse would happen when I wanted to go home Rather than me just driving the 100 miles there and back You have additional overhead of somebody having to come pick me up doubling the miles driven. That person has to get paid which makes it even more expensive. And there are still cars! I'm just not allowed to own one. if I'm sharing a ride which is unlikely it will take up way more time which is also an expensive drag on the economy. delivery here is unreliable and expensive. if I'm picking out wood I have to go through dozens of boards to find ones that aren't fucked up. I need to find ones that are suitable for the job that I'm trying to use them for. A delivery guy would just grab whatever and throw it in the truck. It's not like I'm ordering an iPod off of Amazon. no mileage savings would be had because it is unlikely that anybody else would be having something delivered in the middle of nowhere.
- california2077 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - smsm42 4y ago
    So you're saying this score is actually how left-wing is the management of the company? I understand why a left-wing politician would eagerly embrace such score, but I do not see how a person not in the clutches of partisan fervor would want anything to do with it. In fact, a rational investor would keep away from such companies, as they would see the management sacrifice the benefit of their company and their client for political purposes - as we have already seen numerous examples. You don't really want to invest in a company where the management is willing to hurt the business to make a partisan point.
- washbrain 4y ago
  TSLA also has a lot of labor related discussions open about workplace safety and racism. (I'm not weighing in on their validity, but it's absolutely truthful the allegations and lawsuits are there.)
  - Aarostotle 4y ago
    > it's absolutely truthful the allegations and lawsuits are there. I want to make sure I understand you. You don't know if people's accusations are true, but you do know that they are making accusations. Is that correct?
    - washbrain 4y ago
      Yeah. I'm not in a position to judge the veracity of the allegations, but the allegations are definitely there.
  - smsm42 4y ago
    You see how bizarre it gets. If you discuss workplace safety and racism (even without any proof of any wrongdoing, just talking about how to treat people better - and I'm sure there are always ways to treat people better), you get a ding on the score. If you suppress any discussion on the matter, you score is perfect. There's absolutely no evidence Tesla is more racist or unsafe place to work than Shell. If anything, Shell should be, in theory, more risky, safety-wise - they are much bigger, so more opportunity to screw up, and they do some things that are inherently risky, like mining and extraction. But I have a serious suspicion that the score has much less to do with safety statistics than with politics and donating to certain people and NGOs, somehow.
    - washbrain 4y ago
      Your hypothesis is that people are more likely to sue their employer if their employer is Tesla, rather then Shell?
      - smsm42 4y ago
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Shell have committed to being net zero by 2050, including the products they sell and have some kind of a plan in place to make it happen. There's bits of their plan that seem dubious to me, like mentions of carbon capture but overall, since I believe that the problem of climate change wasn't "oh no, we can't do this, because it's impossible" but rather "we're not going to do this", that commitment and plan is all I'm really looking for. It would be like the USA implementing a carbon tax. Is it instantly going to solve all the problems tomorrow? Will it magically fix all the previous carbon they've emitted. No, but it would be a really smart thing to do and just based on their size, would have a massive impact over time accelerating the transition.
  - teamonkey 4y ago
    > Shell have committed to being net zero by 2050, including the products they sell How is this remotely possible in any real sense? It doesn’t hold up to any form of scrutiny. They would literally have to remove thousands of tonnes of carbon from the air every year and put it back in the ground. That is not possible. No, they’ve built a few wind farms and intend to trade carbon credits. Pure greenwashing.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      > They would literally have to remove thousands of tonnes of carbon from the air every year and put it back in the ground. That is not possible. They don't need to remove it from the air, that's kind of the last resort, though some people do think that'll be part of the answer eventually and are investigating ways to do it. The simplest and cheapest option to reach their goal will generally be to avoid emitting carbon in the first place. So yes, building wind farms is a good thing, as is running an EV charging network. Lots of things they can do to make money as a business that don't involve greenhouse gas emissions. Lots of ways they can save money as a business, which as a side effect reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Carbon credits are a boring, sensible answer that economist like, it's basically equivalent to a carbon tax. It literally pays people to do the right thing, and charges them if they don't. It's one of the policies that enabled Tesla and EVs generally to succeed and get to the point where they are better than what we had before. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/tesla-electric-vehicle-regulatory-credits-explained.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/tesla-electric-vehicle-regul...
- rocqua 4y ago
  On the S and the G, I could imagine Tesla doing quite bad. With e.g. "work fro. Hone is fine, as long as you work from the office at least 40 hours a week". Besides, shell is apparently so green that activists investors are asking it to split out the green energy part from the oil part. The idea of activists is that oil lovers undervalue shell because of the green stuff, whilst green lovers undervalue shell because of the oil. Hence if you split it the parts have a higher combined valuation. Point being, shell has a very significant green energy investment.
hunterb123 4y ago
Come on now, don't cherry pick, tack on a few more for context: Shell: A++ https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/shell-plc/IID000000002137074 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings... BP: A https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/bp-plc/IID000000002140371 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings... Marathon Oil: A

gnarbarian 4y ago

I was referring to this which happened a few months ago: https://esgreview.net/2022/07/06/is-exxonmobil-really-more-esg-friendly-than-tesla-2/ https://esgreview.net/2022/07/06/is-exxonmobil-really-more-e... https://seekingalpha.com/article/4516270-tesla-exxon-mobil-sp-500-esg-how-does-this-work https://seekingalpha.com/article/4516270-tesla-exxon-mobil-s...

sjaak 4y ago

Shell: AA https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/shell-plc/IID000000002137074 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings... Higher than TSLA

gnarbarian 4y ago
also Tesla is only average for the automotive industry which is mind-boggling.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Well why shouldn't they be? Most major auto makers are phasing out development of new ICE drivetrains, and phasing out ICE manufacturing altogether. Meanwhile Tesla is certainly not without criticism.
  - gnarbarian 4y ago
    >plans to phase out vs >never offered and never will offer isn't that criticism political in nature?
    - SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
      YMMV on exactly what counts as "political", but I can easily imagine someone having an honest, good faith belief that investing in Toyota's transition to EVs is just as good for the planet as investing in Tesla's from-scratch EVs.
- baobob 4y ago
  > To manufacture each EV battery, you must process > 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium > 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt > 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, 25,000 pounds of ore for copper > Digging up 500,000 pounds of the earth's crust > For just - one - battery. https://twitter.com/brianroemmele/status/1503176565974216710 https://twitter.com/brianroemmele/status/1503176565974216710 Would appreciate a fact check if this is anyone's business here
  - gnarbarian 4y ago
    They can be recycled once we have a large install base
    - washbrain 4y ago
      Can they? I've seen people make this claim, but I've not seen it actually substantiated. Who has successfully recycled one, what was their yield, what was the cost?
      - gnarbarian 4y ago
        https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling already happening
        washbrain 4y ago
        Cool! What are their yields? What are their costs?
      - jjoonathan 4y ago
        The techniques that separate lithium from ore are extreme overkill for separating lithium from dead batteries. Recycling lithium is like mining lithium on easy mode: better yield and cost. If an EV can justify the raw resource extraction within one car lifetime -- and it can, handily -- it justifies the recycling. We should expect recycling to be (average EV lifetime) behind on the scale curve, though, which will make it a prime source for anti-EV talking points until the market saturates in a decade or two. > washbrain Ha, nice try.
- cardanome 4y ago
  A electric cars are mostly a luxury item for rich people to feel better. Not sure why you think Tesla should have a good rating. They are harmful in that they are actively distracting from the proper solution: that people shouldn't have private cars. The environmental cost to produce car, the space they take up in the cities, in the end private car ownership can not be made sustainable even if they run on electric. Tech wont solve the climate crisis, only societal change will.
  - gnarbarian 4y ago
    I don't live in a city. I'm 20 miles from the nearest grocery store. I build real physical things with my hands that require physical materials like lumber to haul around. I can't haul 2000 lb of lumber on the back of my road bike.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      - gnarbarian 4y ago
    - cardanome 4y ago
      What would be the issue with just having your stuff delivered then? And yeah every rule needs exceptions, of course there should be ways to rent cars for special occasion, I am just against general private car ownership for most people. Edit: General private car ownership of people living in the cities that is
      - gnarbarian 4y ago
        I think your view is skewed towards living in a city. your solution doesn't work for a number of reasons. if I wanted to go somewhere I would call an Uber and they would drive 20 or 30 miles to pick me up and then 40 or 50 miles more to drop me off and then the reverse would happen when I wanted to go home Rather than me just driving the 100 miles there and back You have additional overhead of somebody having to come pick me up doubling the miles driven. That person has to get paid which makes it even more expensive. And there are still cars! I'm just not allowed to own one. if I'm sharing a ride which is unlikely it will take up way more time which is also an expensive drag on the economy. delivery here is unreliable and expensive. if I'm picking out wood I have to go through dozens of boards to find ones that aren't fucked up. I need to find ones that are suitable for the job that I'm trying to use them for. A delivery guy would just grab whatever and throw it in the truck. It's not like I'm ordering an iPod off of Amazon. no mileage savings would be had because it is unlikely that anybody else would be having something delivered in the middle of nowhere.
california2077 4y ago
[flagged]
- smsm42 4y ago
  So you're saying this score is actually how left-wing is the management of the company? I understand why a left-wing politician would eagerly embrace such score, but I do not see how a person not in the clutches of partisan fervor would want anything to do with it. In fact, a rational investor would keep away from such companies, as they would see the management sacrifice the benefit of their company and their client for political purposes - as we have already seen numerous examples. You don't really want to invest in a company where the management is willing to hurt the business to make a partisan point.
washbrain 4y ago
TSLA also has a lot of labor related discussions open about workplace safety and racism. (I'm not weighing in on their validity, but it's absolutely truthful the allegations and lawsuits are there.)
- Aarostotle 4y ago
  > it's absolutely truthful the allegations and lawsuits are there. I want to make sure I understand you. You don't know if people's accusations are true, but you do know that they are making accusations. Is that correct?
  - washbrain 4y ago
    Yeah. I'm not in a position to judge the veracity of the allegations, but the allegations are definitely there.
- smsm42 4y ago
  You see how bizarre it gets. If you discuss workplace safety and racism (even without any proof of any wrongdoing, just talking about how to treat people better - and I'm sure there are always ways to treat people better), you get a ding on the score. If you suppress any discussion on the matter, you score is perfect. There's absolutely no evidence Tesla is more racist or unsafe place to work than Shell. If anything, Shell should be, in theory, more risky, safety-wise - they are much bigger, so more opportunity to screw up, and they do some things that are inherently risky, like mining and extraction. But I have a serious suspicion that the score has much less to do with safety statistics than with politics and donating to certain people and NGOs, somehow.
  - washbrain 4y ago
    Your hypothesis is that people are more likely to sue their employer if their employer is Tesla, rather then Shell?
    - smsm42 4y ago
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Shell have committed to being net zero by 2050, including the products they sell and have some kind of a plan in place to make it happen. There's bits of their plan that seem dubious to me, like mentions of carbon capture but overall, since I believe that the problem of climate change wasn't "oh no, we can't do this, because it's impossible" but rather "we're not going to do this", that commitment and plan is all I'm really looking for. It would be like the USA implementing a carbon tax. Is it instantly going to solve all the problems tomorrow? Will it magically fix all the previous carbon they've emitted. No, but it would be a really smart thing to do and just based on their size, would have a massive impact over time accelerating the transition.
- teamonkey 4y ago
  > Shell have committed to being net zero by 2050, including the products they sell How is this remotely possible in any real sense? It doesn’t hold up to any form of scrutiny. They would literally have to remove thousands of tonnes of carbon from the air every year and put it back in the ground. That is not possible. No, they’ve built a few wind farms and intend to trade carbon credits. Pure greenwashing.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    > They would literally have to remove thousands of tonnes of carbon from the air every year and put it back in the ground. That is not possible. They don't need to remove it from the air, that's kind of the last resort, though some people do think that'll be part of the answer eventually and are investigating ways to do it. The simplest and cheapest option to reach their goal will generally be to avoid emitting carbon in the first place. So yes, building wind farms is a good thing, as is running an EV charging network. Lots of things they can do to make money as a business that don't involve greenhouse gas emissions. Lots of ways they can save money as a business, which as a side effect reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Carbon credits are a boring, sensible answer that economist like, it's basically equivalent to a carbon tax. It literally pays people to do the right thing, and charges them if they don't. It's one of the policies that enabled Tesla and EVs generally to succeed and get to the point where they are better than what we had before. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/tesla-electric-vehicle-regulatory-credits-explained.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/tesla-electric-vehicle-regul...
rocqua 4y ago
On the S and the G, I could imagine Tesla doing quite bad. With e.g. "work fro. Hone is fine, as long as you work from the office at least 40 hours a week". Besides, shell is apparently so green that activists investors are asking it to split out the green energy part from the oil part. The idea of activists is that oil lovers undervalue shell because of the green stuff, whilst green lovers undervalue shell because of the oil. Hence if you split it the parts have a higher combined valuation. Point being, shell has a very significant green energy investment.

hunterb123 4y ago

Come on now, don't cherry pick, tack on a few more for context: Shell: A++ https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/shell-plc/IID000000002137074 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings... BP: A https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings-climate-search-tool/issuer/bp-plc/IID000000002140371 https://www.msci.com/our-solutions/esg-investing/esg-ratings... Marathon Oil: A