3 ms·

> When your catering to that fringe becomes a problem or uncomfortable, people will drop you en masse — precisely because they’re too busy to care. The problem

> When your catering to that fringe becomes a problem or uncomfortable, people will drop you en masse — precisely because they’re too busy to care. The problem is that people can become inured to it, especially if there aren't better options. That state can exist for a long, long time. Edit: > But it’s not because people are fundamentally uninterested: Rippaverse raised over $3M, anime and manga are setting records, etc. After Googling a bit, that Rippaverse thing seems like it's an opposite-polarity reaction, so it's still part of the problem.

zmgsabst 4y ago
Sure — that’s why we’ve spent five years with terrible Star Wars and Marvel movies pandering to a niche audience. But eventually the music stops and everyone leaves… which is what we’re seeing now: Those companies haven’t produced quality within easy memory (5 years) and so people are overcoming their decades of inertia to find new properties. You can look at the different receptions of Reacher and Terminal List versus Wheel of Time and Rings of Power, though, to see that putting The Message over quality doesn’t work. > After Googling a bit, that Rippaverse thing seems like it's an opposite-polarity reaction, so it's still part of the problem. You should listen to Rippa’s own description rather than the press around it: He’s just trying to make a quality comic book, no explicit message. That’s portrayed as “anti-woke” because not putting The Message front and center is a revolutionary act, these days.
- NoraCodes 4y ago
  > He’s just trying to make a quality comic book, no explicit message. That’s portrayed as “anti-woke” because not putting The Message front and center is a revolutionary act, these days. This is extremely interesting to me for a couple of reasons. The use of "these days" here makes me think that you consider comic books with a political message (or Message, as you spell it) are a new phenomenon. That's deeply ahistorical; the first superheroes - among them Superman, Wonder Woman, and Captain America - were created in the 1930s with pretty clear political agendas. Captain America's would, I hope, be obvious; he was created by American Jews who wanted to portray the fight against fascism, and specifically Nazism, as patriotic and righteous. Superman, too, was created by American Jews, and has periodically been portrayed as anti-Communist and generally anti-authoritarian throughout his entire existence as a character. Wonder Woman was created in the 1940s by a polyamorous triad of outspoken feminists, and her creators explicitly stated at the time: > Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman. Superhero comics without significant, explicit political messaging are rare in the history of the medium. Popular ones are even moreso.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    > The use of "these days" here makes me think that you consider comic books with a political message (or Message, as you spell it) are a new phenomenon. You went on a whole rant based on a poor assumption. > Superhero comics without significant, explicit political messaging are rare in the history of the medium. Your entire post is based around poor assumptions: My comment was about the relative importance of political message and themes versus the quality of story telling — which you misconstrued as some kind of extremist statement about “no politics in comics!”
    - dmix 4y ago
      Redlettermedia perfectly demonstrated how politics in modern media is often done so poorly in their Picard reviews. Compared to old Star Trek, which frequently explored current-day political themes that were subtle and cleverly told through stories where you learn they are bad via their actions and consequences (aka allegories). https://youtu.be/aQ2TQ_GRO4g?t=1528 https://youtu.be/aQ2TQ_GRO4g?t=1528 But whenever they came up in Picard it's always pointing at something and saying this BAD. Or that GOOD. It no longer assumes the reader/viewer is smart enough to make connections and draw their own conculsions. It has to be explicit to the point of bashing it over your head.
      - Volundr 4y ago
        I'd recommend going back and rewatching STNG. I did a couple years ago and was shocked by how preachy and sacarine it was. Not at all the way my nostalgia remembered it. I was disappointed in the latest season of Picard, but I don't think calling the unsubtle preaching a departure from the classic series is a fair critism. It was always there.
      - NoraCodes 4y ago
        When is the last time you watched The Original Series? Just to pick one example, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield (S3:E15) features an utterly ham-fisted metaphor for racism and slavery. It's also one of the best-reviewed episodes in the series, even today. Star Trek has been an explicitly and somewhat clumsily political show since the very beginning, and people like that about it.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  Wheel of Time is a great example of the issue, though. In the early 1990s, a series where the most powerful organization in the known world is a multiracial women's group and men aren't allowed to channel because they'll just break things was very much in accordance with "The Message". But you and I were much younger in the 90s, so these kind of things seem normal to us, while it seems ham-fisted to make a prophecy conspicuously sex-neutral or have characters explain that they don't like to assume where people are from based on their appearance.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > Wheel of Time is a great example of the issue, though. In the early 1990s, a series where the most powerful organization in the known world is a multiracial women's group and men aren't allowed to channel because they'll just break things was very much in accordance with "The Message". I take it you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time I had initially mistaken it for a A Wrinkle in Time, given your description seemed to fit my vague impressions (from ads, etc) of the film adaption that has Oprah (and I have zero memory of the book).
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    Sure — but I think it’s more complicated than your description: Wheel of Time had elements of a message within it, but they didn’t take pre-eminence over the story… it was used to frame it, but that sexist power structure was a major conflict within the story because that wasn’t right either, even though it was a rational idea at the time it started. Wheel of Time isn’t “The Message” of the 90s, but an examination of the back-and-forth between sexes which casts both extremes as problematic: men can’t shun their potential for ruin, but women-only and shunning men entirely doesn’t work either. The series goes out of its way to frame partnership as the ideal — to the point both sexes are required for elaborate magic. And that complex dynamic was framed within a well told story. I think that stands in stark contrast to modern media — and that’s the difference I’m trying to highlight. Amazon’s telling threw out all that complexity which explored the good and bad within both sexes to instead push a hamfisted ideology.

zmgsabst 4y ago

Sure — that’s why we’ve spent five years with terrible Star Wars and Marvel movies pandering to a niche audience. But eventually the music stops and everyone leaves… which is what we’re seeing now: Those companies haven’t produced quality within easy memory (5 years) and so people are overcoming their decades of inertia to find new properties. You can look at the different receptions of Reacher and Terminal List versus Wheel of Time and Rings of Power, though, to see that putting The Message over quality doesn’t work. > After Googling a bit, that Rippaverse thing seems like it's an opposite-polarity reaction, so it's still part of the problem. You should listen to Rippa’s own description rather than the press around it: He’s just trying to make a quality comic book, no explicit message. That’s portrayed as “anti-woke” because not putting The Message front and center is a revolutionary act, these days.

NoraCodes 4y ago
> He’s just trying to make a quality comic book, no explicit message. That’s portrayed as “anti-woke” because not putting The Message front and center is a revolutionary act, these days. This is extremely interesting to me for a couple of reasons. The use of "these days" here makes me think that you consider comic books with a political message (or Message, as you spell it) are a new phenomenon. That's deeply ahistorical; the first superheroes - among them Superman, Wonder Woman, and Captain America - were created in the 1930s with pretty clear political agendas. Captain America's would, I hope, be obvious; he was created by American Jews who wanted to portray the fight against fascism, and specifically Nazism, as patriotic and righteous. Superman, too, was created by American Jews, and has periodically been portrayed as anti-Communist and generally anti-authoritarian throughout his entire existence as a character. Wonder Woman was created in the 1940s by a polyamorous triad of outspoken feminists, and her creators explicitly stated at the time: > Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman. Superhero comics without significant, explicit political messaging are rare in the history of the medium. Popular ones are even moreso.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  > The use of "these days" here makes me think that you consider comic books with a political message (or Message, as you spell it) are a new phenomenon. You went on a whole rant based on a poor assumption. > Superhero comics without significant, explicit political messaging are rare in the history of the medium. Your entire post is based around poor assumptions: My comment was about the relative importance of political message and themes versus the quality of story telling — which you misconstrued as some kind of extremist statement about “no politics in comics!”
  - dmix 4y ago
    Redlettermedia perfectly demonstrated how politics in modern media is often done so poorly in their Picard reviews. Compared to old Star Trek, which frequently explored current-day political themes that were subtle and cleverly told through stories where you learn they are bad via their actions and consequences (aka allegories). https://youtu.be/aQ2TQ_GRO4g?t=1528 https://youtu.be/aQ2TQ_GRO4g?t=1528 But whenever they came up in Picard it's always pointing at something and saying this BAD. Or that GOOD. It no longer assumes the reader/viewer is smart enough to make connections and draw their own conculsions. It has to be explicit to the point of bashing it over your head.
    - Volundr 4y ago
      I'd recommend going back and rewatching STNG. I did a couple years ago and was shocked by how preachy and sacarine it was. Not at all the way my nostalgia remembered it. I was disappointed in the latest season of Picard, but I don't think calling the unsubtle preaching a departure from the classic series is a fair critism. It was always there.
    - NoraCodes 4y ago
      When is the last time you watched The Original Series? Just to pick one example, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield (S3:E15) features an utterly ham-fisted metaphor for racism and slavery. It's also one of the best-reviewed episodes in the series, even today. Star Trek has been an explicitly and somewhat clumsily political show since the very beginning, and people like that about it.
SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
Wheel of Time is a great example of the issue, though. In the early 1990s, a series where the most powerful organization in the known world is a multiracial women's group and men aren't allowed to channel because they'll just break things was very much in accordance with "The Message". But you and I were much younger in the 90s, so these kind of things seem normal to us, while it seems ham-fisted to make a prophecy conspicuously sex-neutral or have characters explain that they don't like to assume where people are from based on their appearance.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > Wheel of Time is a great example of the issue, though. In the early 1990s, a series where the most powerful organization in the known world is a multiracial women's group and men aren't allowed to channel because they'll just break things was very much in accordance with "The Message". I take it you mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time I had initially mistaken it for a A Wrinkle in Time, given your description seemed to fit my vague impressions (from ads, etc) of the film adaption that has Oprah (and I have zero memory of the book).
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  Sure — but I think it’s more complicated than your description: Wheel of Time had elements of a message within it, but they didn’t take pre-eminence over the story… it was used to frame it, but that sexist power structure was a major conflict within the story because that wasn’t right either, even though it was a rational idea at the time it started. Wheel of Time isn’t “The Message” of the 90s, but an examination of the back-and-forth between sexes which casts both extremes as problematic: men can’t shun their potential for ruin, but women-only and shunning men entirely doesn’t work either. The series goes out of its way to frame partnership as the ideal — to the point both sexes are required for elaborate magic. And that complex dynamic was framed within a well told story. I think that stands in stark contrast to modern media — and that’s the difference I’m trying to highlight. Amazon’s telling threw out all that complexity which explored the good and bad within both sexes to instead push a hamfisted ideology.