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Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

88 points by dan-jackson 4y ago

dan-jackson 4y ago
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-misses-may-global-production-target-third-month-shortfall-2022-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
googlryas 4y ago
Yup, I went to buy one last year, I think the advertised price was $40k, but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" for the pleasure of doing business with them. I went for a Tesla Model Y instead, and I'm very happy with it.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it?
  - givemeethekeys 4y ago
    To me, calling it a "dealership fee" implies I'm getting something special from the dealership in addition to buying the car from them.
    - jedberg 4y ago
      You are getting something special -- the fact that they have one on hand. :)
    - Kon-Peki 4y ago
      You are getting something special: A guaranteed financial loss. $20k buys a lot of gas, and you get to finance it too.
    - koolba 4y ago
      Of course there's a $15K markup. Something has to pay for that crappy cup of Flavia coffee you get in the waiting room.
  - arijun 4y ago
    It’s in scare quotes because it’s not a fee, it’s just a way of raising the price.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > it’s just a way of raising the price All fees are a way of raising a price.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - olyjohn 4y ago
        Some fees recoup costs. Some are explicitly for the purpose of getting more money from the buyer without putting it in the list price, and aren't a cost to the dealer at all.
      - NoSorryCannot 4y ago
        No, I don't think they are. For example, a credit card processing fee doesn't raise the price of a gallon of gasoline. There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the difference is, just observe that there is a difference. It's a common grift to hide part of the price in unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder time comparing options but it is just that, a grift. It's deception.
        greedo 4y ago
        Uh, despite the best attempts of credit card companies to hide the fact, their card processing fees do raise the price of gasoline. Before they held as much power over gas retailers, gas stations used to list a cash price and a credit price. The cash price was usually around a nickel cheaper. But now the merchant card agreements prevent having dual pricing (though some businesses try to get away with dual pricing).
        NoSorryCannot 4y ago
  - alldayeveryday 4y ago
    15k dealership fee is unreasonable.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      Presumably it's reasonable because it's supported by market conditions?
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        Market conditions by an enforced middle man
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        The market conditions are set by the number of people trying to buy the cars and how much they're willing to pay. The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars until the dealer dropped their prices to something reasonable.
        scottyah 4y ago
        People don’t want to buy other cars just because the dealers are colluding and raising the prices despite adding no value. When they do decide to avoid a car just because of the leeching dealerships, it hurts the manufacturer too
        oneoff786 4y ago
        If you’re an emotionless rationalist sure
      - gweinberg 4y ago
        Market conditions explain the higher price, but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer? I think something other than the market is at work here.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    It's not just supply and demand, because the manufacturers have been pissed at the dealership markups, because it makes them look bad. And the manufacturers can't do anything about it because of state enforced middlemen in the car sale process. And it's not scare quotes, I'm just using the phrase that they used, which I had never heard of before. And, it was unreasonable, because of some details which I did not include, which is that the specific vehicle was listed as for sale on their website for $40k, but only when I called did they say that it was actually only for sale for $55k. That's a bait and switch.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Well there are destination charges/dealer prep/paperwork etc. I recently had to buy a car. And by all indications low-mileage used are hot tickets right now. Had to pay something like $500 in dealership charges which is more than I've paid in the past I'm pretty sure but not highway robbery. Didn't even try to negotiate the sticker price but, to my surprise, was about to get the price for some "factory installed options" (which included a first aid kit!) added to my trade-in. So the used car situation cuts both ways. I was probably pretty lucky to get the car in "only" six weeks. But didn't even try to get a hybrid or electric.
      - PenguinCoder 4y ago
        $500 is a far cry from $15,000. It's still insane for what amounts to some paperwork and processing fees though.
        ghaff 4y ago
        Sure. One is clearly padding. The other is we're going to add a massive surcharge and if you don't pay it someone else will. I actually consider myself lucky getting a semi-reasonable deal in a not too extended timeframe on something I'm happy with in a supply-constrained environment.
        frumper 4y ago
  - tmh88j 4y ago
    >Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it? No, it's not reasonable when you're forced to go through a middleman who adds little to no value to the transaction and wants to take a massive cut. Ford is legitimately worried about dealership greed jeopardizing the success of the F-150 Lightning[1] and EV's in general, so they're moving towards direct to customer online sales for their EV's[2]. They've arguably been burned by greedy dealerships in the past with the Focus RS[3]. [1] https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-against-f-150-lightening-price-gouging https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-... [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-online-only-with-no-dealer-markups-says-ceo-farley/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-... [3] https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-rs-dead-dealers-blame/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-...
  - pipeline_peak 4y ago
    Thank you for introducing me to the term scare quotes aka shudder quotes, quibble quotes, and my personal favorite sneer quotes. People here love passive aggression.
    - haram_masala 4y ago
      If you want to call people out for passive aggression, well, that’s your choice, I guess. Not what I’d do, but hey, whatever makes you happy.
      - pipeline_peak 4y ago
        A major part of passive aggression is being subtle with hostility to avoid being exposed. If anything calling it out is poetic justice, but you’re welcome to just let it happen.
  - paxys 4y ago
    If it was actually just supply and demand then these dealerships wouldn't exist at all.
- sparkbII 4y ago
  Are Teslas the only electrics you can buy that way?
- flurie 4y ago
  This price tracker[1] shows that the price of the Model Y has increased about 9-12k depending on trim over the past year. Are you happy because that's less than 15k? [1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLDgPQDJAdzY8b5Vamw-Vf3eSY/edit#gid=231426599 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...
  - ParksNet 4y ago
    Better that excess demand is captured by the manufacturer, which can be reinvested into manufacturing, than the dealer. I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.
    - ribosometronome 4y ago
      >I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla An interesting comment considering this is above a story of Tesla cutting functionality via a software update for a customer years after purchase and demanding thousands to undo it. That sort of stuff, their lackluster QC and the erratic behavior of the CEO has me pretty skeptical of them as a company.
      - BobLaw 4y ago
        If you read the story or the comments the car had a 60kwh battery replaced under warranty but only a 90kwh was available. Procedure was to set the battery firmware to 60 kwh but for whatever reason that didn't happen. The car was then sold twice until someone found the discrepancy and fixed it. Nobody received anything less than they paid for from Tesla. The current owner may have been deceived by one of the previous sellers but that's not something your can really blame on Tesla
        yellowapple 4y ago
        If you read the comments, you'd have seen the analogy to Apple repairing a laptop with slightly better parts and then deciding multiple years later to software-nerf it. I don't know about you, but I'd be livid - in both cases.
- paxys 4y ago
  If you want a Model Y immediately you will have to pay a lot more than a $15k premium. The earliest official delivery date for one is April 2023, and that's just for the premium models.
  - frumper 4y ago
    Model Y performance is Aug-Oct delivery.
    - paxys 4y ago
      It is also $70K. Not exactly a reasonable comparison to a Toyota RAV4.
      - frumper 4y ago
        The Rav4 prime was 57k after all the fees. My Model Y was 61k Edit: Those numbers were numbers I experienced buying a year ago. Article numbers put some Rav4's more than current Model Y performance price.
      - brianwawok 4y ago
        In the current gas price world, whats the 10 year TCO comparison? Might not be as far off as you think..
        frumper 4y ago
        It would greatly depend on your driving habits. I’m averaging 2k miles a month. My electricity cost averages around 4 cents/mile(14c/kWh). At my current gas prices($5.75) I’d need to get 142mpg to get 4 cents/mile. The rav4 is complicated because it’s both, but I’d get about 40% of my day on electric and 60% on gas. That means 4c/mile for the EV(even granting it’s as efficient as the Tesla which epa numbers aren’t as good) and 36mpg(epa Highway rav4 prime) on the Highway for 60% of my day. 36mpg would be about 16c/mile. So in an average day about 100 miles, it’d be 40 * .04 + 60 * .16 = 13.5c/mile averages over a day. So 24000miles/yr multiples by .04 or 0.135 and it’s $960 vs $3240. That points to in excess of $20k in savings over 10 years. If someone goes 40 miles or less a day these numbers favor a prime quite a bit more.
paulirwin 4y ago
I tried to buy one of these this month. The dealership I went to has a policy of not selling over MSRP, which I appreciate. As a result, they are no longer even taking names for the RAV4 Prime waiting list because they estimate the wait is 2-3 years.
- kube-system 4y ago
  I tried to buy one last year. The dealer I went to said they weren't being allocated any and that I'd have to go to another dealer. The look on their face was basically "haha good luck"
- frumper 4y ago
  I found one last year. It was 7k dealer markup, plus another 3k for various accessories, plus another 2k for an A/C super coolant. They also came in extremely low on a trade-in. I ended up walking and ordering a Model Y. It felt slimy to pay over MSRP. Similar experiences at several ford dealers over mach-e prices.
  - thinkling 4y ago
    At Toyota dealers you pay over MSRP, at Tesla they just repeatedly raise the MSRP...
    - dmtroyer 4y ago
      at least you have some idea what you’re dealing with without having to haggle with a salesperson.
    - frumper 4y ago
      Tesla honors the price you order your Model Y at. Mine took about 3 months to get and the price did go up once during that time. I paid the original price. Fun surprise ordering a Mach-E/F-150 Lightning and the dealer charges the market adjustment on your custom ordered car. No where is that fee disclosed until you go down to the dealership to pick it up.
kingrazor 4y ago
I was hoping to buy a new car this year but frankly, there's nothing wrong with my 2012 Nissan Altima right now. I'm going to wait and hope that this craziness subsides soon.
- newsclues 4y ago
  If you can wait tell a dealer to put you on a list for allocation at the retail price.
- highwaylights 4y ago
  Likewise. Toyota Auris 2011 owner here. Does what I need it to do. Not even sure what I’d replace it with, but there’s nothing I’m looking at that comes close to justifying it’s cost versus just keeping this running.
  - LegitShady 4y ago
    I agree - it's definitely not the right time to be getting a new car if you can help it. I said to myself I'd drive this car for at least 10 years...what's another year or two to let prices come back to earth.
    - pojzon 4y ago
      In few years when petrol and disel cars get banned in 1st world countries -> gonna buy my dream car for peanuts. My country does not care about the climate (Poland). Thats just reality. One man’s trash is anothers man’s treasure.
      - rasz 4y ago
        Poland is in EU, so your dream car will be a lawn/garage queen unless you plan moving to Russia or Africa.
        pojzon 4y ago
        Poland being in EU doesnt stop it from breaking EU laws left and right. Im not saying its good but thats just how it is. Poland was always a market for used cars from Germany, this will not change.
jedberg 4y ago
Makes sense. That car is the perfect car for my family. Electric range is enough to do most of our daily errands, taking the kids to classes, etc. But the gas range is enough to take family road trips. And in my case, it also happens to have 100% support from Openpilot, which is a requirement for me.
- selectodude 4y ago
  "Specific new Toyota models are shipping with a new message authentication method that openpilot does not yet support. So far, this list includes: Toyota RAV4 Prime 2021+" Just a heads up.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    Oh thanks! I hadn't checked in a while. I'm not getting a new car anytime soon anyway so hopefully they solve it before I am ready!
    - syntaxing 4y ago
      I mentioned it above but I doubt it, it’s been an outstanding issue for over 2 years. It’s really difficult to circumvent the encrypted ECUs
- syntaxing 4y ago
  I’m honestly not sure how OpenPilot is gonna stay in business on the long run. As others has mentioned, any of the new Toyota cars are eventually going to have encrypted ECUs. Also, I paid like $1K for Ford’s lane centering and it has been amazing on highways. I can’t imagine spending $3K for a comma 3 anymore.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    I don't see them being in business long term either as all the cars start adopting their features. But I like the hackability. I actually run a fork right now that gives my Honda superpowers. Couldn't do that with a stock system.
subpixel 4y ago
I bought one last Fall for sticker price and as the commute to my daughters school is 50 miles rt we fill the tank once a month or so. Basically a great gateway drug to fully electric, which is what I want when I can get an F150 which is not taking orders atm.
- hedora 4y ago
  The pricing on the RAV4 is nuts. For that commute, you could sell it and buy a used low-range EV, like a 2018 BMW i3: https://driverbase.com/research/vehicles/bmw/i3/2018 https://driverbase.com/research/vehicles/bmw/i3/2018 and end up with ~$42K in pocket. (It is particularly inexpensive because they significantly improved the range in 2019. However, the 2018 would easily do your commute.) We ended up buying one in lieu of trading in an ICE pickup truck for a backordered electric F150. To me, the crazy thing is that we could apparently sell you the used i3 we bought earlier this year for a 36% profit, and you could end up with a 60% discount on the i3 (vs. pre-Ukraine prices) by switching to it from the RAV4!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I assume that when anything goes wrong with a BMW, and I assume it will relatively quickly, the repair costs will quickly close the gap on any initial savings.
    - MengerSponge 4y ago
      There's a lot less to go wrong in an all-electric vehicle. Not saying you can't have issues with fans or the seat-heaters (ahem), but you're not looking at an engine rebuild or even oil changes down the line
      - coredog64 4y ago
        The original Fiat 500es were a train wreck, even for a Fiat. They were super cheap, but all the stories of the owners who carried around specific wrenches in the back to disconnect and reconnect the battery as the easiest fix finally convinced me to pass.
AceJohnny2 4y ago
Funny, when I tried out the range of hybrid Crossover SUVs (like the RAV4) in late 2020, I found the RAV4 Prime felt like driving a boat. It had a kind of inertia I didn't feel in other cars. I ended up getting a Ford Escape Hybrid (not plug-in) instead, which I really like (then again, I guess it's a different kind of product, not being a plug-in hybrid)
- AceJohnny2 4y ago
  Perhaps the RAV4 Prime just defaulted to a more tame "Eco" driving mode, whereas the Escape was tuned to behave more aggressively by default. I tend to always switch the Escape to Eco mode anyhow. Now that I think of it, I'd be curious to compare them again with this in mind.
- syntaxing 4y ago
  I agree how good the Ford Escape handling is. I have the PHEV trim and it reacts so well. I also set my driving mode to Eco the moment I drive, easily my biggest gripe about the car is that I cannot set the drive mode to default to Eco. I tried the RAV4 prime and it definitely has a higher kick. Also the RAV4 has a higher torque level before the engine kicks on. But I find the Sports mode on the Escape to be just like the RAV4 normal but not sure why I need my car to accelerate that fast.
maerF0x0 4y ago
If it's selling for so much does that mean Toyota (the company) is missing out on a ton of margin that the dealerships are making?
- nradov 4y ago
  In theory, yes. But Toyota is positioned as a mainstream value brand. They don't want to damage their brand image in the marketplace by raising MSRP just because they temporarily can't manufacture enough to meet demand.
- somerandomqaguy 4y ago
  For that money the Lexus NX 450h+ is probably viable. And would probably hold a higher resale due to the Lexus badge.
  - wing-_-nuts 4y ago
    lol, no. If you pay a massive markup over msrp, you've just lit that money on fire when things normalize and you go to sell.
smilekzs 4y ago
Supply and demand, yadda yadda, sure. I can accept that the observed behavior on my end is "pay up or wait". What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all the markups.
- BobLaw 4y ago
  I think they should be able to mark stuff up all they want. They just shouldn't be able to have laws enabling their status as forced middle men. If a consumer wants to pay extra through a dealership because they value something they provide so be it. If a consumer doesn't want any bullshit though they should be able to easily bypass them and go to the manufacturer directly.
- sethammons 4y ago
  > What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all the markups Why?
  - deelowe 4y ago
    Because it's enforced via regulatory capture. Ford, as an example, has had a hell of a time fighting with it's own dealer networks over behaviors they do not condone. It would be different if Ford could sell direct to consumer.
  - scottyah 4y ago
    I can’t speak for the quoted, but the dealerships are not creating the value that makes the cars desirable. They simply are in the right place at the right time and none of the extra money they get is going to improve the car in the future.
    - axlee 4y ago
      like a real estate agent?
      - baumandm 4y ago
koksik202 4y ago
The PHEV in Ireland was €52k when it released in Jan 2022, I ordered it 5 months in advance seems like this model was way cheaper in US and now reaches same price as in Europe?
- ricardobeat 4y ago
  You might want to check the news - the euro and dollar are at parity now. One of these has sold for $96k, it’s dealerships taking advantage of demand.
- jacv 4y ago
  Probably a combo of things: 1) Prices in the US don’t include tax. 2) Ireland is also an expensive place to purchase a car because of VRT. RAV4 PHEV is €47k in Germany for example. 3) Lastly, could be some spec differences between the cars that account for a difference, as in my experience, cars in Ireland aren’t always the same specs/trim as other areas (but I could be wrong about Toyota, I don’t know).
syntaxing 4y ago
For those looking for an alternative, I highly recommend the Ford Escape PHEV. It’s about 12K cheaper with the federal incentives. You lose out on some stuff like AWD and one recall, but overall the compromises were worth the 12K difference. The car handles very well and remote app is free. With the electric range and my habits, I would need to get gas every 6 months. I get over 40 mpg if I run on gas (in the summer).
- riku_iki 4y ago
  > The car handles very well and remote app is free Do they have option of not remotely controlled car? )
  - syntaxing 4y ago
    I’m not sure, I think every modern car from what I know has cellular capabilities built in regardless of brand. You don’t have to opt in for the Ford Pass (the remote app) and can remote start the vehicle with the key fob (remote start is included)
- noodle 4y ago
  I've been helping someone shop for a car and the Escape PHEV has been on the top of the list of considerations. Agreed its a great alternative, but its basically impossible to find as well. Most ford dealerships are charging ~20% over MSRP for it and there are also wait lists for it. I've never seen one in person.
  - syntaxing 4y ago
    Ahh that’s a shame, it looks really nice in person too (I prefer it more than the RAV4). I managed to snag one before the gas price exploded so I’m sure the demand is so much higher now
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nomel 4y ago
mechagodzilla 4y ago
We tried to buy one in fall of 2020, and we weren't able to get one until June of 2021, although we did actual buy it for MSRP (and after state and federal incentives, I think it was ~$34k total). It replaced a 2005 Honda CRV, and it's been great so far. We pretty much only buy gas on road trips (in hybrid mode it gets ~40 MPG), the car has crazy acceleration and is very fun to drive, and the final price was great. We had also considered a Model Y, which we would have wound up paying at least $30k more for - at its MSRP, especially with incentives, the value was great.
- dmtroyer 4y ago
  sounds like you might be able to upgrade to a Model Y for not much.
paxys 4y ago
I bought an SUV at MSRP in August 2021 and, after a year of use, can sell it today to Carvana/Carmax/Vroom for at least $5-10K more than what I paid for it, and probably even more if I negotiate a private sale. The car market right now is bonkers.
loeg 4y ago
Wild. Reminds me of the lines for 2nd gen Toyota Priuses in the early 2000s, and also the early Highlander hybrids. What's so great about the RAV4? Subaru Outbacks are basically SUV sized these days, with arguably superior AWD to the RAV4. That's what I ended up with when I was buying a few years ago. It's not hybrid, but $30-50k buys a lot of gas, and we don't do many miles. If you did a bunch of miles (commuting?), I'd think you'd want something more aerodynamic.
- francisofascii 4y ago
  > What's so great about the RAV4? It has 42 miles of electric range. Prius Prime only has 25. So you can have an SUV, have electric, and have a gas engine for long trips.
- dmtroyer 4y ago
  comparing an outback to a rav4 hybrid or plug-in hybrid is not a very direct comparison. although I agree the subaru awd is superior, I am paying a lot more to keep my high mileage forester on the road than i would a Toyota.
quartz 4y ago
Unrelated to price it's great to see PHEVs getting better and better on larger cars and drawing demand. I've got a first-gen Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV which only gets like 17miles (ok more like 14 if the heat or A/C is on which is basically always) on electric but it makes a huge difference in overall mpg since I use the ICE on the highway and switch to electric in-town. My one concern is that there's a huge question mark about what happens when the battery degrades over time. I'm happy to replace it when that happens but will be really bummed if my only option at that point is to put the same lower-capacity battery in.
- olyjohn 4y ago
  Small battery like that won't be terrible to replace. I know for the 1st gen Insight, you can pick up those batteries for about $2000-2500. And usually when the car has a dead battery, the price of them is around... $2000-2500 cheaper than one with a good battery. Lots of people just drive them with bad batteries and still end up getting over 50mpgs.
  - quartz 4y ago
    I sure hope so. MSRP on the battery is over $10k right now from Volvo[1] although poking around some dealers have them as low as $8k. Maybe there will be aftermarket options in the future? Sort of silly to hope for but if I'm lucky the battery will prematurely degrade within the 8-year hybrid warranty and they'll replace it for free. [1] https://usparts.volvocars.com/p/Volvo_2017_XC90-20l-4-cylinder-Turbo/Drive-Motor-Battery-Pack/97581098/31673714.html https://usparts.volvocars.com/p/Volvo_2017_XC90-20l-4-cylind...
- daydream 4y ago
  I want to buy an XC90 but there’s very few to none new ones available anymore, and 2023s are $10k more. Oh well.
dragontamer 4y ago
RAV4 Prime looks good. I probably should plug its competitors: Hyundai Tucson PHEV and Ford Escape PHEV. They're cheaper and roughly the same size. They don't have the insane acceleration of the RAV4 prime, but they accomplish the goal of going from A-to-B with 40ish miles of all electric range + gasoline backup. If you're willing to sacrifice the acceleration, the Hyundai Tucson PHEV should be competitive. Ford Escape PHEV is FWD only and also slower, but its the cheapest of all 3 options.
- coffee_beqn 4y ago
  Very happy with the Escape. I thought I’d miss the 4WD but honestly the one time I drive to the mountains or something is usually in May-September and FWD is perfectly fine for that in the PNW. The 40 mile range is amazing for a mild climate commute and driving around the city. I still haven’t added any gas and I’ve had it for 6 months. I considered the Prime but I cared much more about the price and getting one this year
  - wing-_-nuts 4y ago
    My only concern with PHEVs is that gas goes stale. That gasoline in your tank has now started to undergo all manner of nasty transformations that will clog fuel injectors, ruin fuel pumps, etc. It can be combated somewhat with fuel stabilizers, but it's absolutely a concern.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      It takes months for gas to go stale though. Just "don't charge" your PHEV once or twice, and you'll cycle through the gasoline. Pretend its an ICE vehicle about once every 3 to 6 months and you should be fine. You probably have a road trip / beach trip where you were planning to use its gasoline tank anyway in that timeframe. You only need to travel ~300 miles to cycle through most of your gas tank.
- wing-_-nuts 4y ago
  Sub 8 second 0-60 is needed on backlane country roads to enable safe passing. Having said that, I mainly drive on city streets and interstates now days, but I still understand why someone would want a car with a little pep. Funny how EVs have changed the game on performance. I don't think anyone sells an EV with a 0-60 over 8s, and one can pretty easily get a model 3 with ~ 3s 0-60. That was supercar territory not so long ago.
krn 4y ago
As a side note, from a European perspective, Japanese cars seem to be so far behind in terms of technology that the only reason to even consider them is their reliability. For the price of Toyota RAV4 one could get either a 7-seater Škoda Kodiaq[1], or a fully electric Škoda Enyaq[2], both of which are more practical and more premium inside. [1] https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/kodiaq https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/kodiaq [2] https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/enyaq https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/enyaq
- pjc50 4y ago
  Toyota have been strange holdouts against electric cars for some reason; they've previously backed hydrogen which is far less practical now.
  - thinkling 4y ago
    Toyota's argument has been that with a limited battery supply, you get more fuel use reduction by building lots and lots of hybrids than by building a few electric cars. I'm not sure they're wrong. (Of course we do need electric cars to be in the mix to get to long term targets.)
  - jointpdf 4y ago
    Honda even more so—they don’t have a single PHEV or EV model available (there was the Clarity). Mazda is even worse. Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, VW, et al seem to have an extensive lineup of electrified vehicles. Yet, they still seem very hard to come by in this market.
    - krn 4y ago
      > Honda even more so—they don’t have a single PHEV or EV model available (there was the Clarity). In Europe, there is an all-electric Honda hatchback: https://www.carwow.co.uk/honda/e https://www.carwow.co.uk/honda/e > Mazda is even worse. And an all-electric Mazda SUV: https://www.carwow.co.uk/mazda/mx-30 https://www.carwow.co.uk/mazda/mx-30 But both of these models are hardly competitive.
- 4y ago
spicymaki 4y ago
This is so weird. Currently only the wealthy are driving the RAV4 Prime and they love it! It is like a status symbol. The RAV4 was supposed to be an economy vehicle. $72K!!! Nothing makes sense anymore.
daenz 4y ago
I bought my (used) Toyota Corolla in early 2021...fortunately right before the used car prices hit an upwards inflection[0]. Every time I've checked the KBB value, it has increased. One year ago today, it the trade in value is 12% more than I purchased it. Today, it is 36% more. This is wild. 0. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/ https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  Is the used car market equally bad?
  - angryasian 4y ago
    yes, used car inventory is selling just as fast because there are no new vehicles
elforce002 4y ago
Look, greed knows no bounds. My country's government gave car importers tax exemptions to bring electric and hybrid cars and what do you think happened after that? They were selling them almost 100% over market value. What happened after that? The market didn't even bother asking anything about them and with electric bills ramping up, the opportunity of somewhat have a seizable market for electric cars was lost. Whoever think we'll phase out regular cars by 2035 is either lying, being naive or getting something out of it.
avelis 4y ago
The 2014 RAV4 EV MSRP'd at $49800 before government incentives. They had 100 mile range, Tesla powertrains, but no DC charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV Crazy to think what PHEVs goes for now.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
These are asking prices. Dealers are putting high asking prices into these websites to anchor the negotiations at an unreasonable number. Gullible customers come in and feel like the dealership is doing them a favor by selling for "only" 20% over MSRP. I really doubt that RAV4 SUVs are selling for 50% over MSRP in high numbers. Maybe one or two sales to people for whom money is no object who also, for some reason, won't simply buy a more luxurious vehicle for the same price. Don't let dealers fool you into thinking this is the new market rate, though.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
As long as you people (and I mean that specifically, wealthy white collar professionals who want a crossover are THE #1 target demographic for this thing) they will keep doing it.
- jaygreco 4y ago
  As long as you people they will keep doing it?
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    There was supposed to be a "keep buying them" in there.
jancsika 4y ago
Not sure about the RAV4, but I strongly doubt people are actually paying some of the markups on the Prius Prime that I've seen. Here's a real email exchange I had about a Prius Prime LE: Dealer: We have one in stock! Me: What's the price on it? Dealer: The MSRP is 30119 plus 20k, tags, and taxes. Me: Plus 20k? Dealer: Yes that is the mark up on our Prius Prime. It can be negotiable, but have to be in person. ** That looks to me like a number pulled out of their ass as an ad-hoc out-of-state spam filter. It worked. But I see no evidence that it has shit to do with the actual price that a human being would pay to buy a new car. HN is a big place-- anybody pay 15-20K over MSRP for a Prius Prime in the past 6 months? I strongly suspect dealers are having fun touting their spam filter numbers as if that's some kind of real car price...
upupandup 4y ago
In any supply & demand market, pay close attention to what's happening at the luxury segment. Across the board, the bubble is imploding in watches, exotic cars. Soon they won't have a supply chain problem but the incoming tsunami of boomers drastically reducing their consumption as they cannot rely on pensions and social security going forward. I am also noticing the same pattern in luxury real estate. I see listings routinely sell below the asking price or not selling at all. There is a cash crunch coming and the rich are urgently putting up their items for sale.
senectus1 4y ago
We have laws in Australia that stop this sort of unhinged price rise... but yeah... I'm waiting in excess of 13 months for my Rav4 Cruiser
timmytokyo 4y ago
Tried to find one of these in my area but was told they are only being sold in certain states like California. I ended up going with an Audi Q5 PHEV at MSRP. No regrets.
calrizien 4y ago
what you think I rap for to push a f'ing rav4? yeah, actually...
Justsignedup 4y ago
Pretty much all cars in new york are like 2-6k over MSRP, and thats for non-luxury brands. The best I've been able to find is 1.5k over msrp with some other restrictions.
milkyc 4y ago
We purchased a 2022 Toyota Sienna from our local dealer and paid MSRP for it after a 3+ month wait for it to arrive. Don't know if that's bc the sienna isn't as popular or if it's the dealers policy to not over charge...
1970-01-01 4y ago
I subscribe to https://www.realcartips.com/news/ https://www.realcartips.com/news/ to monitor new and used prices. No affiliation whatsoever.

88 points by dan-jackson 4y ago

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-misses-may-global-production-target-third-month-shortfall-2022-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...

googlryas 4y ago

Yup, I went to buy one last year, I think the advertised price was $40k, but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" for the pleasure of doing business with them. I went for a Tesla Model Y instead, and I'm very happy with it.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it?
- givemeethekeys 4y ago
  To me, calling it a "dealership fee" implies I'm getting something special from the dealership in addition to buying the car from them.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    You are getting something special -- the fact that they have one on hand. :)
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    You are getting something special: A guaranteed financial loss. $20k buys a lot of gas, and you get to finance it too.
  - koolba 4y ago
    Of course there's a $15K markup. Something has to pay for that crappy cup of Flavia coffee you get in the waiting room.
- arijun 4y ago
  It’s in scare quotes because it’s not a fee, it’s just a way of raising the price.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > it’s just a way of raising the price All fees are a way of raising a price.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - olyjohn 4y ago
      Some fees recoup costs. Some are explicitly for the purpose of getting more money from the buyer without putting it in the list price, and aren't a cost to the dealer at all.
    - NoSorryCannot 4y ago
      No, I don't think they are. For example, a credit card processing fee doesn't raise the price of a gallon of gasoline. There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the difference is, just observe that there is a difference. It's a common grift to hide part of the price in unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder time comparing options but it is just that, a grift. It's deception.
      - greedo 4y ago
        Uh, despite the best attempts of credit card companies to hide the fact, their card processing fees do raise the price of gasoline. Before they held as much power over gas retailers, gas stations used to list a cash price and a credit price. The cash price was usually around a nickel cheaper. But now the merchant card agreements prevent having dual pricing (though some businesses try to get away with dual pricing).
        NoSorryCannot 4y ago
- alldayeveryday 4y ago
  15k dealership fee is unreasonable.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Presumably it's reasonable because it's supported by market conditions?
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Market conditions by an enforced middle man
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        The market conditions are set by the number of people trying to buy the cars and how much they're willing to pay. The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars until the dealer dropped their prices to something reasonable.
        scottyah 4y ago
        People don’t want to buy other cars just because the dealers are colluding and raising the prices despite adding no value. When they do decide to avoid a car just because of the leeching dealerships, it hurts the manufacturer too
        oneoff786 4y ago
        If you’re an emotionless rationalist sure
    - gweinberg 4y ago
      Market conditions explain the higher price, but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer? I think something other than the market is at work here.
- googlryas 4y ago
  It's not just supply and demand, because the manufacturers have been pissed at the dealership markups, because it makes them look bad. And the manufacturers can't do anything about it because of state enforced middlemen in the car sale process. And it's not scare quotes, I'm just using the phrase that they used, which I had never heard of before. And, it was unreasonable, because of some details which I did not include, which is that the specific vehicle was listed as for sale on their website for $40k, but only when I called did they say that it was actually only for sale for $55k. That's a bait and switch.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Well there are destination charges/dealer prep/paperwork etc. I recently had to buy a car. And by all indications low-mileage used are hot tickets right now. Had to pay something like $500 in dealership charges which is more than I've paid in the past I'm pretty sure but not highway robbery. Didn't even try to negotiate the sticker price but, to my surprise, was about to get the price for some "factory installed options" (which included a first aid kit!) added to my trade-in. So the used car situation cuts both ways. I was probably pretty lucky to get the car in "only" six weeks. But didn't even try to get a hybrid or electric.
    - PenguinCoder 4y ago
      $500 is a far cry from $15,000. It's still insane for what amounts to some paperwork and processing fees though.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        Sure. One is clearly padding. The other is we're going to add a massive surcharge and if you don't pay it someone else will. I actually consider myself lucky getting a semi-reasonable deal in a not too extended timeframe on something I'm happy with in a supply-constrained environment.
        frumper 4y ago
- tmh88j 4y ago
  >Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it? No, it's not reasonable when you're forced to go through a middleman who adds little to no value to the transaction and wants to take a massive cut. Ford is legitimately worried about dealership greed jeopardizing the success of the F-150 Lightning[1] and EV's in general, so they're moving towards direct to customer online sales for their EV's[2]. They've arguably been burned by greedy dealerships in the past with the Focus RS[3]. [1] https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-against-f-150-lightening-price-gouging https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-... [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-online-only-with-no-dealer-markups-says-ceo-farley/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-... [3] https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-rs-dead-dealers-blame/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-...
- pipeline_peak 4y ago
  Thank you for introducing me to the term scare quotes aka shudder quotes, quibble quotes, and my personal favorite sneer quotes. People here love passive aggression.
  - haram_masala 4y ago
    If you want to call people out for passive aggression, well, that’s your choice, I guess. Not what I’d do, but hey, whatever makes you happy.
    - pipeline_peak 4y ago
      A major part of passive aggression is being subtle with hostility to avoid being exposed. If anything calling it out is poetic justice, but you’re welcome to just let it happen.
- paxys 4y ago
  If it was actually just supply and demand then these dealerships wouldn't exist at all.
sparkbII 4y ago
Are Teslas the only electrics you can buy that way?
flurie 4y ago
This price tracker[1] shows that the price of the Model Y has increased about 9-12k depending on trim over the past year. Are you happy because that's less than 15k? [1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLDgPQDJAdzY8b5Vamw-Vf3eSY/edit#gid=231426599 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...
- ParksNet 4y ago
  Better that excess demand is captured by the manufacturer, which can be reinvested into manufacturing, than the dealer. I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.
  - ribosometronome 4y ago
    >I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla An interesting comment considering this is above a story of Tesla cutting functionality via a software update for a customer years after purchase and demanding thousands to undo it. That sort of stuff, their lackluster QC and the erratic behavior of the CEO has me pretty skeptical of them as a company.
    - BobLaw 4y ago
      If you read the story or the comments the car had a 60kwh battery replaced under warranty but only a 90kwh was available. Procedure was to set the battery firmware to 60 kwh but for whatever reason that didn't happen. The car was then sold twice until someone found the discrepancy and fixed it. Nobody received anything less than they paid for from Tesla. The current owner may have been deceived by one of the previous sellers but that's not something your can really blame on Tesla
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        If you read the comments, you'd have seen the analogy to Apple repairing a laptop with slightly better parts and then deciding multiple years later to software-nerf it. I don't know about you, but I'd be livid - in both cases.
paxys 4y ago
If you want a Model Y immediately you will have to pay a lot more than a $15k premium. The earliest official delivery date for one is April 2023, and that's just for the premium models.
- frumper 4y ago
  Model Y performance is Aug-Oct delivery.
  - paxys 4y ago
    It is also $70K. Not exactly a reasonable comparison to a Toyota RAV4.
    - frumper 4y ago
      The Rav4 prime was 57k after all the fees. My Model Y was 61k Edit: Those numbers were numbers I experienced buying a year ago. Article numbers put some Rav4's more than current Model Y performance price.
    - brianwawok 4y ago
      In the current gas price world, whats the 10 year TCO comparison? Might not be as far off as you think..
      - frumper 4y ago
        It would greatly depend on your driving habits. I’m averaging 2k miles a month. My electricity cost averages around 4 cents/mile(14c/kWh). At my current gas prices($5.75) I’d need to get 142mpg to get 4 cents/mile. The rav4 is complicated because it’s both, but I’d get about 40% of my day on electric and 60% on gas. That means 4c/mile for the EV(even granting it’s as efficient as the Tesla which epa numbers aren’t as good) and 36mpg(epa Highway rav4 prime) on the Highway for 60% of my day. 36mpg would be about 16c/mile. So in an average day about 100 miles, it’d be 40 * .04 + 60 * .16 = 13.5c/mile averages over a day. So 24000miles/yr multiples by .04 or 0.135 and it’s $960 vs $3240. That points to in excess of $20k in savings over 10 years. If someone goes 40 miles or less a day these numbers favor a prime quite a bit more.

paulirwin 4y ago

I tried to buy one of these this month. The dealership I went to has a policy of not selling over MSRP, which I appreciate. As a result, they are no longer even taking names for the RAV4 Prime waiting list because they estimate the wait is 2-3 years.

kube-system 4y ago
I tried to buy one last year. The dealer I went to said they weren't being allocated any and that I'd have to go to another dealer. The look on their face was basically "haha good luck"
frumper 4y ago
I found one last year. It was 7k dealer markup, plus another 3k for various accessories, plus another 2k for an A/C super coolant. They also came in extremely low on a trade-in. I ended up walking and ordering a Model Y. It felt slimy to pay over MSRP. Similar experiences at several ford dealers over mach-e prices.
- thinkling 4y ago
  At Toyota dealers you pay over MSRP, at Tesla they just repeatedly raise the MSRP...
  - dmtroyer 4y ago
    at least you have some idea what you’re dealing with without having to haggle with a salesperson.
  - frumper 4y ago
    Tesla honors the price you order your Model Y at. Mine took about 3 months to get and the price did go up once during that time. I paid the original price. Fun surprise ordering a Mach-E/F-150 Lightning and the dealer charges the market adjustment on your custom ordered car. No where is that fee disclosed until you go down to the dealership to pick it up.

kingrazor 4y ago

I was hoping to buy a new car this year but frankly, there's nothing wrong with my 2012 Nissan Altima right now. I'm going to wait and hope that this craziness subsides soon.

newsclues 4y ago
If you can wait tell a dealer to put you on a list for allocation at the retail price.
highwaylights 4y ago
Likewise. Toyota Auris 2011 owner here. Does what I need it to do. Not even sure what I’d replace it with, but there’s nothing I’m looking at that comes close to justifying it’s cost versus just keeping this running.
- LegitShady 4y ago
  I agree - it's definitely not the right time to be getting a new car if you can help it. I said to myself I'd drive this car for at least 10 years...what's another year or two to let prices come back to earth.
  - pojzon 4y ago
    In few years when petrol and disel cars get banned in 1st world countries -> gonna buy my dream car for peanuts. My country does not care about the climate (Poland). Thats just reality. One man’s trash is anothers man’s treasure.
    - rasz 4y ago
      Poland is in EU, so your dream car will be a lawn/garage queen unless you plan moving to Russia or Africa.
      - pojzon 4y ago
        Poland being in EU doesnt stop it from breaking EU laws left and right. Im not saying its good but thats just how it is. Poland was always a market for used cars from Germany, this will not change.

jedberg 4y ago

Makes sense. That car is the perfect car for my family. Electric range is enough to do most of our daily errands, taking the kids to classes, etc. But the gas range is enough to take family road trips. And in my case, it also happens to have 100% support from Openpilot, which is a requirement for me.

selectodude 4y ago
"Specific new Toyota models are shipping with a new message authentication method that openpilot does not yet support. So far, this list includes: Toyota RAV4 Prime 2021+" Just a heads up.
- jedberg 4y ago
  Oh thanks! I hadn't checked in a while. I'm not getting a new car anytime soon anyway so hopefully they solve it before I am ready!
  - syntaxing 4y ago
    I mentioned it above but I doubt it, it’s been an outstanding issue for over 2 years. It’s really difficult to circumvent the encrypted ECUs
syntaxing 4y ago
I’m honestly not sure how OpenPilot is gonna stay in business on the long run. As others has mentioned, any of the new Toyota cars are eventually going to have encrypted ECUs. Also, I paid like $1K for Ford’s lane centering and it has been amazing on highways. I can’t imagine spending $3K for a comma 3 anymore.
- jedberg 4y ago
  I don't see them being in business long term either as all the cars start adopting their features. But I like the hackability. I actually run a fork right now that gives my Honda superpowers. Couldn't do that with a stock system.

subpixel 4y ago

I bought one last Fall for sticker price and as the commute to my daughters school is 50 miles rt we fill the tank once a month or so. Basically a great gateway drug to fully electric, which is what I want when I can get an F150 which is not taking orders atm.

hedora 4y ago
The pricing on the RAV4 is nuts. For that commute, you could sell it and buy a used low-range EV, like a 2018 BMW i3: https://driverbase.com/research/vehicles/bmw/i3/2018 https://driverbase.com/research/vehicles/bmw/i3/2018 and end up with ~$42K in pocket. (It is particularly inexpensive because they significantly improved the range in 2019. However, the 2018 would easily do your commute.) We ended up buying one in lieu of trading in an ICE pickup truck for a backordered electric F150. To me, the crazy thing is that we could apparently sell you the used i3 we bought earlier this year for a 36% profit, and you could end up with a 60% discount on the i3 (vs. pre-Ukraine prices) by switching to it from the RAV4!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I assume that when anything goes wrong with a BMW, and I assume it will relatively quickly, the repair costs will quickly close the gap on any initial savings.
  - MengerSponge 4y ago
    There's a lot less to go wrong in an all-electric vehicle. Not saying you can't have issues with fans or the seat-heaters (ahem), but you're not looking at an engine rebuild or even oil changes down the line
    - coredog64 4y ago
      The original Fiat 500es were a train wreck, even for a Fiat. They were super cheap, but all the stories of the owners who carried around specific wrenches in the back to disconnect and reconnect the battery as the easiest fix finally convinced me to pass.

AceJohnny2 4y ago

Funny, when I tried out the range of hybrid Crossover SUVs (like the RAV4) in late 2020, I found the RAV4 Prime felt like driving a boat. It had a kind of inertia I didn't feel in other cars. I ended up getting a Ford Escape Hybrid (not plug-in) instead, which I really like (then again, I guess it's a different kind of product, not being a plug-in hybrid)

AceJohnny2 4y ago
Perhaps the RAV4 Prime just defaulted to a more tame "Eco" driving mode, whereas the Escape was tuned to behave more aggressively by default. I tend to always switch the Escape to Eco mode anyhow. Now that I think of it, I'd be curious to compare them again with this in mind.
syntaxing 4y ago
I agree how good the Ford Escape handling is. I have the PHEV trim and it reacts so well. I also set my driving mode to Eco the moment I drive, easily my biggest gripe about the car is that I cannot set the drive mode to default to Eco. I tried the RAV4 prime and it definitely has a higher kick. Also the RAV4 has a higher torque level before the engine kicks on. But I find the Sports mode on the Escape to be just like the RAV4 normal but not sure why I need my car to accelerate that fast.

maerF0x0 4y ago

If it's selling for so much does that mean Toyota (the company) is missing out on a ton of margin that the dealerships are making?

nradov 4y ago
In theory, yes. But Toyota is positioned as a mainstream value brand. They don't want to damage their brand image in the marketplace by raising MSRP just because they temporarily can't manufacture enough to meet demand.
somerandomqaguy 4y ago
For that money the Lexus NX 450h+ is probably viable. And would probably hold a higher resale due to the Lexus badge.
- wing-_-nuts 4y ago
  lol, no. If you pay a massive markup over msrp, you've just lit that money on fire when things normalize and you go to sell.

smilekzs 4y ago

Supply and demand, yadda yadda, sure. I can accept that the observed behavior on my end is "pay up or wait". What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all the markups.

BobLaw 4y ago
I think they should be able to mark stuff up all they want. They just shouldn't be able to have laws enabling their status as forced middle men. If a consumer wants to pay extra through a dealership because they value something they provide so be it. If a consumer doesn't want any bullshit though they should be able to easily bypass them and go to the manufacturer directly.
sethammons 4y ago
> What I cannot accept is that the dealerships are pocketing all the markups Why?
- deelowe 4y ago
  Because it's enforced via regulatory capture. Ford, as an example, has had a hell of a time fighting with it's own dealer networks over behaviors they do not condone. It would be different if Ford could sell direct to consumer.
- scottyah 4y ago
  I can’t speak for the quoted, but the dealerships are not creating the value that makes the cars desirable. They simply are in the right place at the right time and none of the extra money they get is going to improve the car in the future.
  - axlee 4y ago
    like a real estate agent?
    - baumandm 4y ago

koksik202 4y ago

The PHEV in Ireland was €52k when it released in Jan 2022, I ordered it 5 months in advance seems like this model was way cheaper in US and now reaches same price as in Europe?

ricardobeat 4y ago
You might want to check the news - the euro and dollar are at parity now. One of these has sold for $96k, it’s dealerships taking advantage of demand.
jacv 4y ago
Probably a combo of things: 1) Prices in the US don’t include tax. 2) Ireland is also an expensive place to purchase a car because of VRT. RAV4 PHEV is €47k in Germany for example. 3) Lastly, could be some spec differences between the cars that account for a difference, as in my experience, cars in Ireland aren’t always the same specs/trim as other areas (but I could be wrong about Toyota, I don’t know).

syntaxing 4y ago

For those looking for an alternative, I highly recommend the Ford Escape PHEV. It’s about 12K cheaper with the federal incentives. You lose out on some stuff like AWD and one recall, but overall the compromises were worth the 12K difference. The car handles very well and remote app is free. With the electric range and my habits, I would need to get gas every 6 months. I get over 40 mpg if I run on gas (in the summer).

riku_iki 4y ago
> The car handles very well and remote app is free Do they have option of not remotely controlled car? )
- syntaxing 4y ago
  I’m not sure, I think every modern car from what I know has cellular capabilities built in regardless of brand. You don’t have to opt in for the Ford Pass (the remote app) and can remote start the vehicle with the key fob (remote start is included)
noodle 4y ago
I've been helping someone shop for a car and the Escape PHEV has been on the top of the list of considerations. Agreed its a great alternative, but its basically impossible to find as well. Most ford dealerships are charging ~20% over MSRP for it and there are also wait lists for it. I've never seen one in person.
- syntaxing 4y ago
  Ahh that’s a shame, it looks really nice in person too (I prefer it more than the RAV4). I managed to snag one before the gas price exploded so I’m sure the demand is so much higher now
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nomel 4y ago

mechagodzilla 4y ago

We tried to buy one in fall of 2020, and we weren't able to get one until June of 2021, although we did actual buy it for MSRP (and after state and federal incentives, I think it was ~$34k total). It replaced a 2005 Honda CRV, and it's been great so far. We pretty much only buy gas on road trips (in hybrid mode it gets ~40 MPG), the car has crazy acceleration and is very fun to drive, and the final price was great. We had also considered a Model Y, which we would have wound up paying at least $30k more for - at its MSRP, especially with incentives, the value was great.

dmtroyer 4y ago
sounds like you might be able to upgrade to a Model Y for not much.

paxys 4y ago

I bought an SUV at MSRP in August 2021 and, after a year of use, can sell it today to Carvana/Carmax/Vroom for at least $5-10K more than what I paid for it, and probably even more if I negotiate a private sale. The car market right now is bonkers.

loeg 4y ago

Wild. Reminds me of the lines for 2nd gen Toyota Priuses in the early 2000s, and also the early Highlander hybrids. What's so great about the RAV4? Subaru Outbacks are basically SUV sized these days, with arguably superior AWD to the RAV4. That's what I ended up with when I was buying a few years ago. It's not hybrid, but $30-50k buys a lot of gas, and we don't do many miles. If you did a bunch of miles (commuting?), I'd think you'd want something more aerodynamic.

francisofascii 4y ago
> What's so great about the RAV4? It has 42 miles of electric range. Prius Prime only has 25. So you can have an SUV, have electric, and have a gas engine for long trips.
dmtroyer 4y ago
comparing an outback to a rav4 hybrid or plug-in hybrid is not a very direct comparison. although I agree the subaru awd is superior, I am paying a lot more to keep my high mileage forester on the road than i would a Toyota.

quartz 4y ago

Unrelated to price it's great to see PHEVs getting better and better on larger cars and drawing demand. I've got a first-gen Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV which only gets like 17miles (ok more like 14 if the heat or A/C is on which is basically always) on electric but it makes a huge difference in overall mpg since I use the ICE on the highway and switch to electric in-town. My one concern is that there's a huge question mark about what happens when the battery degrades over time. I'm happy to replace it when that happens but will be really bummed if my only option at that point is to put the same lower-capacity battery in.

olyjohn 4y ago
Small battery like that won't be terrible to replace. I know for the 1st gen Insight, you can pick up those batteries for about $2000-2500. And usually when the car has a dead battery, the price of them is around... $2000-2500 cheaper than one with a good battery. Lots of people just drive them with bad batteries and still end up getting over 50mpgs.
- quartz 4y ago
  I sure hope so. MSRP on the battery is over $10k right now from Volvo[1] although poking around some dealers have them as low as $8k. Maybe there will be aftermarket options in the future? Sort of silly to hope for but if I'm lucky the battery will prematurely degrade within the 8-year hybrid warranty and they'll replace it for free. [1] https://usparts.volvocars.com/p/Volvo_2017_XC90-20l-4-cylinder-Turbo/Drive-Motor-Battery-Pack/97581098/31673714.html https://usparts.volvocars.com/p/Volvo_2017_XC90-20l-4-cylind...
daydream 4y ago
I want to buy an XC90 but there’s very few to none new ones available anymore, and 2023s are $10k more. Oh well.

dragontamer 4y ago

RAV4 Prime looks good. I probably should plug its competitors: Hyundai Tucson PHEV and Ford Escape PHEV. They're cheaper and roughly the same size. They don't have the insane acceleration of the RAV4 prime, but they accomplish the goal of going from A-to-B with 40ish miles of all electric range + gasoline backup. If you're willing to sacrifice the acceleration, the Hyundai Tucson PHEV should be competitive. Ford Escape PHEV is FWD only and also slower, but its the cheapest of all 3 options.

coffee_beqn 4y ago
Very happy with the Escape. I thought I’d miss the 4WD but honestly the one time I drive to the mountains or something is usually in May-September and FWD is perfectly fine for that in the PNW. The 40 mile range is amazing for a mild climate commute and driving around the city. I still haven’t added any gas and I’ve had it for 6 months. I considered the Prime but I cared much more about the price and getting one this year
- wing-_-nuts 4y ago
  My only concern with PHEVs is that gas goes stale. That gasoline in your tank has now started to undergo all manner of nasty transformations that will clog fuel injectors, ruin fuel pumps, etc. It can be combated somewhat with fuel stabilizers, but it's absolutely a concern.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    It takes months for gas to go stale though. Just "don't charge" your PHEV once or twice, and you'll cycle through the gasoline. Pretend its an ICE vehicle about once every 3 to 6 months and you should be fine. You probably have a road trip / beach trip where you were planning to use its gasoline tank anyway in that timeframe. You only need to travel ~300 miles to cycle through most of your gas tank.
wing-_-nuts 4y ago
Sub 8 second 0-60 is needed on backlane country roads to enable safe passing. Having said that, I mainly drive on city streets and interstates now days, but I still understand why someone would want a car with a little pep. Funny how EVs have changed the game on performance. I don't think anyone sells an EV with a 0-60 over 8s, and one can pretty easily get a model 3 with ~ 3s 0-60. That was supercar territory not so long ago.

krn 4y ago

As a side note, from a European perspective, Japanese cars seem to be so far behind in terms of technology that the only reason to even consider them is their reliability. For the price of Toyota RAV4 one could get either a 7-seater Škoda Kodiaq[1], or a fully electric Škoda Enyaq[2], both of which are more practical and more premium inside. [1] https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/kodiaq https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/kodiaq [2] https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/enyaq https://www.carwow.co.uk/skoda/enyaq

pjc50 4y ago
Toyota have been strange holdouts against electric cars for some reason; they've previously backed hydrogen which is far less practical now.
- thinkling 4y ago
  Toyota's argument has been that with a limited battery supply, you get more fuel use reduction by building lots and lots of hybrids than by building a few electric cars. I'm not sure they're wrong. (Of course we do need electric cars to be in the mix to get to long term targets.)
- jointpdf 4y ago
  Honda even more so—they don’t have a single PHEV or EV model available (there was the Clarity). Mazda is even worse. Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, VW, et al seem to have an extensive lineup of electrified vehicles. Yet, they still seem very hard to come by in this market.
  - krn 4y ago
    > Honda even more so—they don’t have a single PHEV or EV model available (there was the Clarity). In Europe, there is an all-electric Honda hatchback: https://www.carwow.co.uk/honda/e https://www.carwow.co.uk/honda/e > Mazda is even worse. And an all-electric Mazda SUV: https://www.carwow.co.uk/mazda/mx-30 https://www.carwow.co.uk/mazda/mx-30 But both of these models are hardly competitive.
4y ago

spicymaki 4y ago

This is so weird. Currently only the wealthy are driving the RAV4 Prime and they love it! It is like a status symbol. The RAV4 was supposed to be an economy vehicle. $72K!!! Nothing makes sense anymore.

daenz 4y ago

I bought my (used) Toyota Corolla in early 2021...fortunately right before the used car prices hit an upwards inflection[0]. Every time I've checked the KBB value, it has increased. One year ago today, it the trade in value is 12% more than I purchased it. Today, it is 36% more. This is wild. 0. https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/ https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/

systemvoltage 4y ago
Is the used car market equally bad?
- angryasian 4y ago
  yes, used car inventory is selling just as fast because there are no new vehicles

elforce002 4y ago

Look, greed knows no bounds. My country's government gave car importers tax exemptions to bring electric and hybrid cars and what do you think happened after that? They were selling them almost 100% over market value. What happened after that? The market didn't even bother asking anything about them and with electric bills ramping up, the opportunity of somewhat have a seizable market for electric cars was lost. Whoever think we'll phase out regular cars by 2035 is either lying, being naive or getting something out of it.

avelis 4y ago

The 2014 RAV4 EV MSRP'd at $49800 before government incentives. They had 100 mile range, Tesla powertrains, but no DC charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV Crazy to think what PHEVs goes for now.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

These are asking prices. Dealers are putting high asking prices into these websites to anchor the negotiations at an unreasonable number. Gullible customers come in and feel like the dealership is doing them a favor by selling for "only" 20% over MSRP. I really doubt that RAV4 SUVs are selling for 50% over MSRP in high numbers. Maybe one or two sales to people for whom money is no object who also, for some reason, won't simply buy a more luxurious vehicle for the same price. Don't let dealers fool you into thinking this is the new market rate, though.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

As long as you people (and I mean that specifically, wealthy white collar professionals who want a crossover are THE #1 target demographic for this thing) they will keep doing it.

jaygreco 4y ago
As long as you people they will keep doing it?
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  There was supposed to be a "keep buying them" in there.

jancsika 4y ago

Not sure about the RAV4, but I strongly doubt people are actually paying some of the markups on the Prius Prime that I've seen. Here's a real email exchange I had about a Prius Prime LE: Dealer: We have one in stock! Me: What's the price on it? Dealer: The MSRP is 30119 plus 20k, tags, and taxes. Me: Plus 20k? Dealer: Yes that is the mark up on our Prius Prime. It can be negotiable, but have to be in person. ** That looks to me like a number pulled out of their ass as an ad-hoc out-of-state spam filter. It worked. But I see no evidence that it has shit to do with the actual price that a human being would pay to buy a new car. HN is a big place-- anybody pay 15-20K over MSRP for a Prius Prime in the past 6 months? I strongly suspect dealers are having fun touting their spam filter numbers as if that's some kind of real car price...

upupandup 4y ago

In any supply & demand market, pay close attention to what's happening at the luxury segment. Across the board, the bubble is imploding in watches, exotic cars. Soon they won't have a supply chain problem but the incoming tsunami of boomers drastically reducing their consumption as they cannot rely on pensions and social security going forward. I am also noticing the same pattern in luxury real estate. I see listings routinely sell below the asking price or not selling at all. There is a cash crunch coming and the rich are urgently putting up their items for sale.

senectus1 4y ago

We have laws in Australia that stop this sort of unhinged price rise... but yeah... I'm waiting in excess of 13 months for my Rav4 Cruiser

timmytokyo 4y ago

Tried to find one of these in my area but was told they are only being sold in certain states like California. I ended up going with an Audi Q5 PHEV at MSRP. No regrets.

calrizien 4y ago

what you think I rap for to push a f'ing rav4? yeah, actually...

Justsignedup 4y ago

Pretty much all cars in new york are like 2-6k over MSRP, and thats for non-luxury brands. The best I've been able to find is 1.5k over msrp with some other restrictions.

milkyc 4y ago

We purchased a 2022 Toyota Sienna from our local dealer and paid MSRP for it after a 3+ month wait for it to arrive. Don't know if that's bc the sienna isn't as popular or if it's the dealers policy to not over charge...

1970-01-01 4y ago

I subscribe to https://www.realcartips.com/news/ https://www.realcartips.com/news/ to monitor new and used prices. No affiliation whatsoever.