4 ms·

All automated "writing & style" tools are for people who can't write and have no style. If that's you, great -- better to use the tool than not. Otherwise, eve

All automated "writing & style" tools are for people who can't write and have no style. If that's you, great -- better to use the tool than not. Otherwise, everything -- from Word's style tips, to these online tools are the death of authorial voice. I mean to write precisely what I say. Not "to write what I say" because that's "more concise and easier for the reader". Precisely what I say, because that's more evocative of my frustration.

subtra3t 4y ago
You're assuming a oot about the people who use these programs. If you wanna hate on the program itself, sure, be my guest. But, please, don't insult their users. It achieves absolutely nothing, and only makes you come off as rude and presumptuous. A large audience for these types of tools is people for whome English is not their first language (this includes me, so please forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes you may find). This audience may be very eloquent and stylistic in their native language, but learning languages (especially when you have passed your teens) is hard, and sounding professional and sleek requires a lot more effort than you might think. Here's where Grammarly comes in. It reformats your sentences to be more consistent with your projected attitude, removing a ton of work for some people.
- bradwood 4y ago
  I'm sorry but I agree with the essence of the TP on this. The best way to learn grammar and style is to develop your own. Regardless if you're writing in your first language or not, getting a good command of a language is going to come from personal effort, not relying on some piece of software to correct you.
  - jfim 4y ago
    It really depends on how one uses the software. If it's used as a learning aid to reinforce certain patterns (eg. "I went to office" -> "I went to the office"), it's fine in my opinion. After all, everyone started as a beginner. If it's used to fix whatever ESL word salad one writes, without using the corrections as a hint to improve one's command of the language, then I agree with you.
- wmorse 4y ago
  I found the comment slightly witty, not insulting. I mean, you have to be able to take (or get) a joke! I know plenty of people for whom the tool is really useful -- my foreign-born wife for example. But were she to limit her native expression with the same kind of "simplifying" that the tool offers, I am sure she would not be perceived as having any kind of personality at all. For me, when I write -- and I like to write -- I choose to break convention often. The tool frustrates me and wastes my time. Sure there is an audience for this, but I don't want to sound like everybody else. That's MY attitude. ...and reading the comments does make it sound like a key-logger ... so no, I can't say I trust the extension.
kazinator 4y ago
Someone who is a very good speller benefits from a spell checker, because he or she isn't necessarily a perfect typist. Even if you make one typo in 20,000 words, and the spell checker finds it, there is value in that. Grammer checking is just extended spell checking. You could have great style, but gaffe something; use some combination of words because you were tired or distracted, or you made some bad edit, half of which was scrolled off the screen or whatever. You could ignore most of the tips, but once in a while it could be that the suggestion you get from the software is exactly the words you wanted to write, but somehow fumbled. That's clearly valuable, and in a way that isn't dictating style to you. Sometimes spelling errors cause grammar errors. So unless you're a perfect speller and typist, a grammar checking tool might be the one which actually catches your typo. This is because a typo can produce a dictionary word, or words.
jfim 4y ago
They also help a lot for people whose native language isn't English.
- Renaud 4y ago
  I think that’s a major use case. Even if you are a native speaker, these style and grammar tools can be educational and and improve your writing confidence (and catch small mistakes we all make). Of course, accepting all the suggestions isn’t the right way to use language tools. The rules are applied mechanically, without taking intent into account.
  - phantomathkg 4y ago
    I am not a native speaker, and I use Grammarly to ensure what I want to say is at least grammatically correct to the reader that I want to impress. And I would say even for native speaker, not only a tool like this is for educational and improve one's own confident, but also demonstrated you care about your reader. I have lost counts on how many typo/grammartical mistakes I noticed when I read company internal wiki written by native speakers.
    - Jack000 4y ago
      just put this sentence through a few grammar apps for comparison. grammarly: > And I would say even for a native speaker, not only a tool like this is for education and to improve one's confidence, but also demonstrated you care about your reader. languagetool (didn't recommend any changes) > And I would say even for native speaker, not only a tool like this is for educational and improve one's own confident, but also demonstrated you care about your reader. quillbot: > And I would say even for native speakers, a tool like this is for educational and improving one's own confidence, but it also demonstrates you care about your reader. gramara (an app I made): > And I would say even for a native speaker, a tool like this is not only meant to educate and improve one's own confidence, but also demonstrate that you care about your readers.
- TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago
michaelt 4y ago
> All automated "writing & style" tools are for people who can't write and have no style. The target market for these tools is professionals writing english as a second language. A tool that can spot and let you fix minor 'it sounds wrong' issues ("big orange cat" vs "orange big cat") can be a confidence-booster if you're e.g. working at Google's Poland office, but doing all your professional work in english.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  That's not the only market for Grammarly. Their incessant Youtube adverts are targeted at native speakers who just want to write tighter prose. I definitely think it could help with that, though I agree it would be more useful for non-native speakers.
lelandfe 4y ago
Huh. I find editing to be almost as important to my writing as my writing itself. I don’t just want my voice to be communicated, I want it to be understood. Sometimes that means automated grammar checkers.
IshKebab 4y ago
> All automated "writing & style" tools are for people who can't write and have no style. I haven't used Grammarly but this strikes me as class HN "I don't make mistakes" hubris. Have you never used a thesaurus? > I mean to write precisely what I say. I assume you were making up that suggestion but "I mean to write what I say." is would be a good improvement, and it's only a suggestion anyway.
- mjburgess 4y ago
  If you think > I mean to write what I say is an improvement over, > I mean to write precisely what I say Then you haven't understood everything I meant to say. The mood in which I write is part of what I write. To remove it is to communicate less.
- da39a3ee 4y ago
  > Have you never used a thesaurus? I'm not sure exactly what you're implying with this rhetorical question but, for the record, I wouldn't expect a well-educated native speaker to use a thesaurus.
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    That's a very strange opinion. This sure sounds like "I'm smart enough to do it without any assistance!" ego wanking. I see it all the time on here about IDE features like autocompletion. "Why would I need that? I'm smart. I just memorise the entire codebase, don't you? Your intellect is laughable."
    - da39a3ee 4y ago
      It's not an opinion; I'm simply stating a fact about the cultural background from which I come (British middle class). It will sound snobbish/arrogant. I make no apologies for that - I'm just offering it as a data point in case it's helpful to the conversation. In British middle class society, where people have attended "good" universities, you don't use a thesaurus. It would be looked-down upon. Incidentally, what do you use a thesaurus for? Is it when you've forgotten a word, or when you want to discover new words that might be apt?

subtra3t 4y ago

You're assuming a oot about the people who use these programs. If you wanna hate on the program itself, sure, be my guest. But, please, don't insult their users. It achieves absolutely nothing, and only makes you come off as rude and presumptuous. A large audience for these types of tools is people for whome English is not their first language (this includes me, so please forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes you may find). This audience may be very eloquent and stylistic in their native language, but learning languages (especially when you have passed your teens) is hard, and sounding professional and sleek requires a lot more effort than you might think. Here's where Grammarly comes in. It reformats your sentences to be more consistent with your projected attitude, removing a ton of work for some people.

bradwood 4y ago
I'm sorry but I agree with the essence of the TP on this. The best way to learn grammar and style is to develop your own. Regardless if you're writing in your first language or not, getting a good command of a language is going to come from personal effort, not relying on some piece of software to correct you.
- jfim 4y ago
  It really depends on how one uses the software. If it's used as a learning aid to reinforce certain patterns (eg. "I went to office" -> "I went to the office"), it's fine in my opinion. After all, everyone started as a beginner. If it's used to fix whatever ESL word salad one writes, without using the corrections as a hint to improve one's command of the language, then I agree with you.
wmorse 4y ago
I found the comment slightly witty, not insulting. I mean, you have to be able to take (or get) a joke! I know plenty of people for whom the tool is really useful -- my foreign-born wife for example. But were she to limit her native expression with the same kind of "simplifying" that the tool offers, I am sure she would not be perceived as having any kind of personality at all. For me, when I write -- and I like to write -- I choose to break convention often. The tool frustrates me and wastes my time. Sure there is an audience for this, but I don't want to sound like everybody else. That's MY attitude. ...and reading the comments does make it sound like a key-logger ... so no, I can't say I trust the extension.

kazinator 4y ago

Someone who is a very good speller benefits from a spell checker, because he or she isn't necessarily a perfect typist. Even if you make one typo in 20,000 words, and the spell checker finds it, there is value in that. Grammer checking is just extended spell checking. You could have great style, but gaffe something; use some combination of words because you were tired or distracted, or you made some bad edit, half of which was scrolled off the screen or whatever. You could ignore most of the tips, but once in a while it could be that the suggestion you get from the software is exactly the words you wanted to write, but somehow fumbled. That's clearly valuable, and in a way that isn't dictating style to you. Sometimes spelling errors cause grammar errors. So unless you're a perfect speller and typist, a grammar checking tool might be the one which actually catches your typo. This is because a typo can produce a dictionary word, or words.

jfim 4y ago

They also help a lot for people whose native language isn't English.

Renaud 4y ago
I think that’s a major use case. Even if you are a native speaker, these style and grammar tools can be educational and and improve your writing confidence (and catch small mistakes we all make). Of course, accepting all the suggestions isn’t the right way to use language tools. The rules are applied mechanically, without taking intent into account.
- phantomathkg 4y ago
  I am not a native speaker, and I use Grammarly to ensure what I want to say is at least grammatically correct to the reader that I want to impress. And I would say even for native speaker, not only a tool like this is for educational and improve one's own confident, but also demonstrated you care about your reader. I have lost counts on how many typo/grammartical mistakes I noticed when I read company internal wiki written by native speakers.
  - Jack000 4y ago
    just put this sentence through a few grammar apps for comparison. grammarly: > And I would say even for a native speaker, not only a tool like this is for education and to improve one's confidence, but also demonstrated you care about your reader. languagetool (didn't recommend any changes) > And I would say even for native speaker, not only a tool like this is for educational and improve one's own confident, but also demonstrated you care about your reader. quillbot: > And I would say even for native speakers, a tool like this is for educational and improving one's own confidence, but it also demonstrates you care about your reader. gramara (an app I made): > And I would say even for a native speaker, a tool like this is not only meant to educate and improve one's own confidence, but also demonstrate that you care about your readers.
TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago

michaelt 4y ago

> All automated "writing & style" tools are for people who can't write and have no style. The target market for these tools is professionals writing english as a second language. A tool that can spot and let you fix minor 'it sounds wrong' issues ("big orange cat" vs "orange big cat") can be a confidence-booster if you're e.g. working at Google's Poland office, but doing all your professional work in english.

IshKebab 4y ago
That's not the only market for Grammarly. Their incessant Youtube adverts are targeted at native speakers who just want to write tighter prose. I definitely think it could help with that, though I agree it would be more useful for non-native speakers.

lelandfe 4y ago

Huh. I find editing to be almost as important to my writing as my writing itself. I don’t just want my voice to be communicated, I want it to be understood. Sometimes that means automated grammar checkers.

IshKebab 4y ago

> All automated "writing & style" tools are for people who can't write and have no style. I haven't used Grammarly but this strikes me as class HN "I don't make mistakes" hubris. Have you never used a thesaurus? > I mean to write precisely what I say. I assume you were making up that suggestion but "I mean to write what I say." is would be a good improvement, and it's only a suggestion anyway.

mjburgess 4y ago
If you think > I mean to write what I say is an improvement over, > I mean to write precisely what I say Then you haven't understood everything I meant to say. The mood in which I write is part of what I write. To remove it is to communicate less.
da39a3ee 4y ago
> Have you never used a thesaurus? I'm not sure exactly what you're implying with this rhetorical question but, for the record, I wouldn't expect a well-educated native speaker to use a thesaurus.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  That's a very strange opinion. This sure sounds like "I'm smart enough to do it without any assistance!" ego wanking. I see it all the time on here about IDE features like autocompletion. "Why would I need that? I'm smart. I just memorise the entire codebase, don't you? Your intellect is laughable."
  - da39a3ee 4y ago
    It's not an opinion; I'm simply stating a fact about the cultural background from which I come (British middle class). It will sound snobbish/arrogant. I make no apologies for that - I'm just offering it as a data point in case it's helpful to the conversation. In British middle class society, where people have attended "good" universities, you don't use a thesaurus. It would be looked-down upon. Incidentally, what do you use a thesaurus for? Is it when you've forgotten a word, or when you want to discover new words that might be apt?