5 ms·

Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? I would not imagine still working in the company where I started as a Junior (and only

by Varqu 4y ago

Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? I would not imagine still working in the company where I started as a Junior (and only receiving a 5% raise per year). In the same time, after jumping a few times, my salary increased 7x and I found a place where I felt really happy working, too. (before starting my own business)

Gareth321 4y ago
>Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? Exactly. This doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I believe you can have a good job and a good wage.
Tainnor 4y ago
> my salary increased 7x That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. I agree that a balance between the extremes is healthy, but I don't think that you're a case in point.
- klntsky 4y ago
  > That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. That is an option in 2nd-3rd world countries, even to a greater extent than in the US (because the market is global and local jobs usually don't pay well). E.g. my compensation (I'm from an ex-USSR country) increased by a factor of 13 after two job changes (for the same amount of work).
  - distances 4y ago
    Lots of European countries have very compressed salary scales throughout the society. As a consequence 2x is common, 3x perhaps still achievable, but 4x already very hard and not possible for most people.
    - pcthrowaway 4y ago
      Couldn't you start an internship at 20K euros, and work your way up to 140K Euros after 7-8 years or so with a few job changes?
      - distances 4y ago
        Theoretically, except 20k would be low for an internship (I had 30k trainee position in about 2007), and 140k is squarely in CTO territory if you're not in FAANG or somesuch top tier place. My assumption was 40k start/80k senior/120k exceptional/160k moonshot. As always, as a disclaimer Europe is a big place. I had Central-Northern parts in mind.
    - wyclif 4y ago
      Perhaps in Europe, but not in the USA.
      - distances 4y ago
        Sure, I just contributed about (parts of) Europe.
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        My current salary is 10x my first salary as a computer programmer. That said, it has been 30 years.
    - 988747 4y ago
      My first salary as developer in a Central European country, while still in college, was 400 Euro. Now, 15 years later I’m making 8k, a 20-fold increase. Of course my country underwent significant economic development during that period
      - Tainnor 4y ago
        I don't think student jobs really count.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Inflation makes up a portion of that nominal increase. I started my career in 1993. From USD inflation alone, my salary would have more than doubled to now just to stay at purchasing power parity. If I’d have been paid in INR over my career, a 7x multiple over that time would leave me less than 2% better off than when I started.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Depends on how low you start. I’ve done 7x in Japan, and I think 4x is possible in the Netherlands (minimum wage is higher, and maximum lower).
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Most software devs start at 2.5k in NL unless you're severely lowballing yourself. You're lucky to get 6k before becoming a principal SE or architect. 10k is a salary you're more likely to hit self-employed. 4x is possible, but in that short of a timeframe, you're more likely moving from a Dutch company to an international one and becoming employable across the entire globe. Which given US salaries would give the ability to 5-10x anyway.
    - cableshaft 4y ago
      Seriously 2.5k? Like the equivalent of 2500 US dollars (since Euros are at near 1:1 parity right now)? I looked it up and apparently the average salary in the Netherlands is 36.5k Euros. How is a principal SE making 20% of the average salary in the Netherlands? I know some countries use decimals like commas are used in the US, so maybe that's actually 25000 and 60000, which would make more sense.
      - dasil003 4y ago
        GP is talking monthly salary.
      - fatuna 4y ago
        They meant per month. In NL we tend to discuss salaries per month. This excludes the mandatory "vacantion bonus", which is about a months salary. 2500 * 13 makes 32500 a year. So not far off from your figures.
        cableshaft 4y ago
        Ah okay. Didn't occur to me it could be a monthly figure. Thanks for the clarification.
- Varqu 4y ago
  Perhaps not 7x, but even in the US after jumping a few times from the first junior role one can probably double or maybe even triple the salary.
lhorie 4y ago
To be fair, if someone stays a junior for enough time that their hypothetical alternate universe self is able to increase comp by 7x, the problem isn't merely a matter of job hopping vs not job hopping. In fact, it seems most of these comp growth discussions tend to fall into black-and-white thinking, when in reality there are several factors that can hugely impact comp, e.g. from retention promos and diagonal internal transfers, to company tiers (see Gergely Orosz on trimodal distribution), to international remote or full blown migration. The thing about happiness vs job hopping risks is also a false dichotomy. You can be one of those 500k+/yr staff eng at FAANGs and do 9-5 days working on interesting problems. You could be miserable in that exact same position. The spectrum is wide and how different people feel about things varies a lot too.

by Varqu 4y ago

Gareth321 4y ago

>Perhaps you can strike a balance between the 2 options of the spectrum? Exactly. This doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. I believe you can have a good job and a good wage.

Tainnor 4y ago

> my salary increased 7x That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. I agree that a balance between the extremes is healthy, but I don't think that you're a case in point.

klntsky 4y ago
> That's simply not an option in most areas of the world. That is an option in 2nd-3rd world countries, even to a greater extent than in the US (because the market is global and local jobs usually don't pay well). E.g. my compensation (I'm from an ex-USSR country) increased by a factor of 13 after two job changes (for the same amount of work).
- distances 4y ago
  Lots of European countries have very compressed salary scales throughout the society. As a consequence 2x is common, 3x perhaps still achievable, but 4x already very hard and not possible for most people.
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    Couldn't you start an internship at 20K euros, and work your way up to 140K Euros after 7-8 years or so with a few job changes?
    - distances 4y ago
      Theoretically, except 20k would be low for an internship (I had 30k trainee position in about 2007), and 140k is squarely in CTO territory if you're not in FAANG or somesuch top tier place. My assumption was 40k start/80k senior/120k exceptional/160k moonshot. As always, as a disclaimer Europe is a big place. I had Central-Northern parts in mind.
  - wyclif 4y ago
    Perhaps in Europe, but not in the USA.
    - distances 4y ago
      Sure, I just contributed about (parts of) Europe.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      My current salary is 10x my first salary as a computer programmer. That said, it has been 30 years.
  - 988747 4y ago
    My first salary as developer in a Central European country, while still in college, was 400 Euro. Now, 15 years later I’m making 8k, a 20-fold increase. Of course my country underwent significant economic development during that period
    - Tainnor 4y ago
      I don't think student jobs really count.
sokoloff 4y ago
Inflation makes up a portion of that nominal increase. I started my career in 1993. From USD inflation alone, my salary would have more than doubled to now just to stay at purchasing power parity. If I’d have been paid in INR over my career, a 7x multiple over that time would leave me less than 2% better off than when I started.
Aeolun 4y ago
Depends on how low you start. I’ve done 7x in Japan, and I think 4x is possible in the Netherlands (minimum wage is higher, and maximum lower).
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Most software devs start at 2.5k in NL unless you're severely lowballing yourself. You're lucky to get 6k before becoming a principal SE or architect. 10k is a salary you're more likely to hit self-employed. 4x is possible, but in that short of a timeframe, you're more likely moving from a Dutch company to an international one and becoming employable across the entire globe. Which given US salaries would give the ability to 5-10x anyway.
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    Seriously 2.5k? Like the equivalent of 2500 US dollars (since Euros are at near 1:1 parity right now)? I looked it up and apparently the average salary in the Netherlands is 36.5k Euros. How is a principal SE making 20% of the average salary in the Netherlands? I know some countries use decimals like commas are used in the US, so maybe that's actually 25000 and 60000, which would make more sense.
    - dasil003 4y ago
      GP is talking monthly salary.
    - fatuna 4y ago
      They meant per month. In NL we tend to discuss salaries per month. This excludes the mandatory "vacantion bonus", which is about a months salary. 2500 * 13 makes 32500 a year. So not far off from your figures.
      - cableshaft 4y ago
        Ah okay. Didn't occur to me it could be a monthly figure. Thanks for the clarification.
Varqu 4y ago
Perhaps not 7x, but even in the US after jumping a few times from the first junior role one can probably double or maybe even triple the salary.

lhorie 4y ago

To be fair, if someone stays a junior for enough time that their hypothetical alternate universe self is able to increase comp by 7x, the problem isn't merely a matter of job hopping vs not job hopping. In fact, it seems most of these comp growth discussions tend to fall into black-and-white thinking, when in reality there are several factors that can hugely impact comp, e.g. from retention promos and diagonal internal transfers, to company tiers (see Gergely Orosz on trimodal distribution), to international remote or full blown migration. The thing about happiness vs job hopping risks is also a false dichotomy. You can be one of those 500k+/yr staff eng at FAANGs and do 9-5 days working on interesting problems. You could be miserable in that exact same position. The spectrum is wide and how different people feel about things varies a lot too.