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The DUP had some informal ties by way of some members appearing on stage alongside loyalist paramilitaries in the past, but it was never the political party of

The DUP had some informal ties by way of some members appearing on stage alongside loyalist paramilitaries in the past, but it was never the political party of any paramilitary group of note. The unionist party run by the UVF is the PUP and it is barely a rounding error in the polls. Sinn Fein has many members of senior IRA rank and calls itself "the political wing of the PIRA". The two are not identical.

disgruntledphd2 4y ago
> Sinn Fein has many members of senior IRA rank and calls itself "the political wing of the PIRA". Name one. I don't disagree that this definitely used to be the case (Martin McGuiness as the classic example), but I can't imagine Mary Lou McDonald as a member of the PIRA. Like, I'm kinda disgusted with myself to be defending Sinn Fein, but one could argue that the necessity of political/violence co-operation was larger for the nationalists, given where they started. It was certainly the perception that the organs of the state were not religion-blind. How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance?
- HeckFeck 4y ago
  Gerry Kelly. Martina Anderson. Gerry Adams (obvs). Bobby Storey. Conor Murphy. Barry McElduff. Michelle O'Neill had no personal involvement, but her father was in the Provisional IRA. It's not uncommon for republican families to split duties in that way. But even if I couldn't name any, it is very clear that the two organisations are deeply and inextricably linked. > How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance? I get what you're saying. We should note that some of the low numbers was down to anti-policing attitudes in their own community. Indeed there are still areas run by republican paramilitary factions today where you don't call the police, or you'll have two problems. I would need to consider the pre-1973 history in better depth, but I would agree that I wish there was better accommodation with the nationalist community in the predominantly unionist state, if it would've helped avoid what happened. But consider that the unionist attitudes were driven by fear of the other side too, this would've affected their decisions. The Northern state was intended as a compromise for Unionists, who looked South and saw their population in the ROI drop from 15% to around 1%. Even with that said, I can never sympathise with people who bombed, intimidated and targeted civilians in the way that the various IRAs did. There is no cause for pride or celebration here, even if one accepts it as necessary. I don't see mournful regret when I see Sinn Fein members reflect on the names of those tied to that aspect of the past. The level of violence and its many knock on effects took a tremendous toll on the unionist population, and we cannot forget who was responsible.
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    > Gerry Adams (obvs) Ah now, Gerry was never a member of the IRA ;) > Michelle O'Neill had no personal involvement, but her father was in the Provisional IRA. It's not uncommon for republican families to split duties in that way. Sins of the father, eh? > I would need to consider the pre-1973 history in better depth, but I would agree that I wish there was better accommodation with the nationalist community in the predominantly unionist state, if it would've helped avoid what happened. But consider that the unionist attitudes were driven by fear of the other side too, this would've affected their decisions. The Northern state was intended as a compromise for Unionists, who looked South and saw their population in the ROI drop from 15% to around 1%. I'm definitely not disputing that at all, the Free State was a deeply hostile place to Protestants post-independence, for a bunch of reasons, most of which are pretty bad. Like, almost every village/town in the Republic has decaying Protestant churches, which shows you how much changed when partition happened. That being said, there were real civil rights issues for Catholics in the North and that's the context for how Provisional SF/IRA got started. > en with that said, I can never sympathise with people who bombed, intimidated and targeted civilians in the way that the various IRAs did. There is no cause for pride or celebration here, even if one accepts it as necessary. I don't see mournful regret when I see Sinn Fein members reflect on the names of those tied to that aspect of the past. Neither do I. Do I possibly understand what drove some of those people? Yes. Do I agree with their actions? Hell no, in fact a hundred times no. Not in my name (speaking as a citizen of the Republic). I've felt this way for a really long time, back in the 1990s when stuff was still happening. That being said, it definitely wasn't one-sided, and remember that SF were not the only organisation killing people for no good reasons, and indeed any state sponsored violence would typically not even be counted in the "terrorism" figures. >The level of violence and its many knock on effects took a tremendous toll on the unionist population, and we cannot forget who was responsible. The violence fucked up everyone, that's what violence does. Like both sides suffered a whole bunch of trauma, and should Catholics never forget the UVF/UDA et al? Should they never forget the irredentist Paisley who shut down the original power-sharing plans which could have prevented thousands of deaths? Like, ultimately it needs to end, and hanging onto grudges rarely works out well for anyone.

disgruntledphd2 4y ago

> Sinn Fein has many members of senior IRA rank and calls itself "the political wing of the PIRA". Name one. I don't disagree that this definitely used to be the case (Martin McGuiness as the classic example), but I can't imagine Mary Lou McDonald as a member of the PIRA. Like, I'm kinda disgusted with myself to be defending Sinn Fein, but one could argue that the necessity of political/violence co-operation was larger for the nationalists, given where they started. It was certainly the perception that the organs of the state were not religion-blind. How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance?

HeckFeck 4y ago
Gerry Kelly. Martina Anderson. Gerry Adams (obvs). Bobby Storey. Conor Murphy. Barry McElduff. Michelle O'Neill had no personal involvement, but her father was in the Provisional IRA. It's not uncommon for republican families to split duties in that way. But even if I couldn't name any, it is very clear that the two organisations are deeply and inextricably linked. > How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance? I get what you're saying. We should note that some of the low numbers was down to anti-policing attitudes in their own community. Indeed there are still areas run by republican paramilitary factions today where you don't call the police, or you'll have two problems. I would need to consider the pre-1973 history in better depth, but I would agree that I wish there was better accommodation with the nationalist community in the predominantly unionist state, if it would've helped avoid what happened. But consider that the unionist attitudes were driven by fear of the other side too, this would've affected their decisions. The Northern state was intended as a compromise for Unionists, who looked South and saw their population in the ROI drop from 15% to around 1%. Even with that said, I can never sympathise with people who bombed, intimidated and targeted civilians in the way that the various IRAs did. There is no cause for pride or celebration here, even if one accepts it as necessary. I don't see mournful regret when I see Sinn Fein members reflect on the names of those tied to that aspect of the past. The level of violence and its many knock on effects took a tremendous toll on the unionist population, and we cannot forget who was responsible.
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  > Gerry Adams (obvs) Ah now, Gerry was never a member of the IRA ;) > Michelle O'Neill had no personal involvement, but her father was in the Provisional IRA. It's not uncommon for republican families to split duties in that way. Sins of the father, eh? > I would need to consider the pre-1973 history in better depth, but I would agree that I wish there was better accommodation with the nationalist community in the predominantly unionist state, if it would've helped avoid what happened. But consider that the unionist attitudes were driven by fear of the other side too, this would've affected their decisions. The Northern state was intended as a compromise for Unionists, who looked South and saw their population in the ROI drop from 15% to around 1%. I'm definitely not disputing that at all, the Free State was a deeply hostile place to Protestants post-independence, for a bunch of reasons, most of which are pretty bad. Like, almost every village/town in the Republic has decaying Protestant churches, which shows you how much changed when partition happened. That being said, there were real civil rights issues for Catholics in the North and that's the context for how Provisional SF/IRA got started. > en with that said, I can never sympathise with people who bombed, intimidated and targeted civilians in the way that the various IRAs did. There is no cause for pride or celebration here, even if one accepts it as necessary. I don't see mournful regret when I see Sinn Fein members reflect on the names of those tied to that aspect of the past. Neither do I. Do I possibly understand what drove some of those people? Yes. Do I agree with their actions? Hell no, in fact a hundred times no. Not in my name (speaking as a citizen of the Republic). I've felt this way for a really long time, back in the 1990s when stuff was still happening. That being said, it definitely wasn't one-sided, and remember that SF were not the only organisation killing people for no good reasons, and indeed any state sponsored violence would typically not even be counted in the "terrorism" figures. >The level of violence and its many knock on effects took a tremendous toll on the unionist population, and we cannot forget who was responsible. The violence fucked up everyone, that's what violence does. Like both sides suffered a whole bunch of trauma, and should Catholics never forget the UVF/UDA et al? Should they never forget the irredentist Paisley who shut down the original power-sharing plans which could have prevented thousands of deaths? Like, ultimately it needs to end, and hanging onto grudges rarely works out well for anyone.