9 ms·

This is an important issue. People keep talking about recycling, but much more important than recycling is just being able to use a thing for longer before you

This is an important issue. People keep talking about recycling, but much more important than recycling is just being able to use a thing for longer before you are even thinking about recycling it. Japanese automakers did the world a great favor when in the 80s and 90s they made much longer lasting cars and made longevity and resale value an important consideration in the purchasing decision. They did this mostly by using better paints and making sure cars and car parts are painted more thoroughly. There are modern materials that prevent corrosion. Here is a company that sells ordinary looking paper that you can use to wrap anything and it will prevent it from rusting. https://www.zerust.com/ https://www.zerust.com/

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
>Japanese automakers did the world a great favor when in the 80s and 90s they made much longer lasting cars and made longevity and resale value an important consideration in the purchasing decision. They did this mostly by using better paints and making sure cars and car parts are painted more thoroughly. This is baseless fanboyism. The European carmakers lead the way with various degrees of zinc plating and dipped coatings being widely implemented on their products in the 70s and 80s. Then around that time lead paint got banned in the US (creating that generation of cars that faded a lot in the 80s) and everybody in the US market was like "hey, we need alternatives that don't break the bank, let's copy what they're doing". The Japanese and US makers both upped their game for the north American market over roughly the same time period. The Japanese have never really taken corrosion prevention very seriously before or since. They and the US makes generally take a "we do as good a job as we need to remain competitive but we don't go above and beyond" attitude whereas the Europeans tend to put quite a bit more effort in. Edit: If you want someone to lie to you to confirm your biases that's not gonna be me.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > The European carmakers lead the way with various degrees of zinc plating and dipped coatings being widely implemented on their products in the 70s and 80s. Ford developed e-coat in the 50's. Everyone took up this to varying extents during the mid-to-late 70's. > whereas the Europeans tend to put quite a bit more effort in. I'm sorry, this just doesn't match my experience looking at mid-80's Japanese, American, and European cars. e.g. Porsche took up galvanizing during the transition from the 911S to the 911SC and further worked to improve coatings leading up to the Carrera 3.2 to attempt to control rust, but 3.2s still fared really poorly in the corrosion department. Ditto for BMWs of the era. > This is baseless fanboyism. > Edit: If you want someone to lie to you to confirm your biases that's not gonna be me. You just made a bunch of unsupported assertions yourself leaning in the opposite direction.
  - Aloha 4y ago
    I came here to mention E-coat, though I'm thinking of it by another name, it's why in dry climates it's rare to see vintage fords rusted out, GM and Chrysler took longer to implement it.
  - wizee 4y ago
    Porsche 944s and 928s are far more rust resistant than most American or Japanese cars of the 80s or even 90s. Likewise with Volvos. The classic 911 was an old design that went through iterative improvements, and the 964 is better rust-proofed than most American or Japanese cars of the late 80s or 90s. Old Audis tend to have minimal rust, and old Mercedes-Benzes like the W126, W124, and W201, while they certainly can and do rust, their bodies tend to far outlast Japanese and American cars of the same era driven in similar conditions. Old W124s still soldier on as daily drivers and winter beaters in the cold and salty environments of post-Soviet states with mostly OK bodies, whereas Japanese cars of the 1980s almost all rotted away beyond repair being worthwhile more than a decade ago.
    - mlyle 4y ago
      It is my impression that older Mercedes are pretty good in this department. I still see so many mid-80's Accords in the US. Yes, there's probably a somewhat smaller share of them that survived than mid-80's BMWs, but there's a lot of factors that go into survival (Honda == cheaper to keep going as a beater; BMW == higher initial value / treated nicer for the earlier parts of its lifespan).
      - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        You see so many mid 80s Accords in the US for the same reason you still see a lot of 90s Caddys despite them being objectively crap cars. The people who bought them could afford to keep them nice, not beat the shit out of them and maintain them as they needed it so they lasted. Your average 1990ish Accord commuter sedan lived a far, far, far easier life, at least for the first 10-15yr than your average Ford Taurus or Subaru Legacy family wagon and it shows in the number that are still around today. This is the same reason you see a lot more Grand Marquis and Town Cars to (non-cop) Crown Vics today than you did back when they were still making all those things. I cite this example specifically to control for literally every variable except the owners.
jacquesm 4y ago
Volvo led the way in this long before Japan got even close to figuring this out. That's why you still see ancient Volvo's drive around in numbers that are just way higher than any other brand.
- bradfa 4y ago
  Are modern Volvos still better than average for corrosion resistance?
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Somewhere in the late 90's early 2000's car manufacturers switched paint processes, typically to a water based paint. That's the point in time where you could see the most clearly which manufacturers had their house in order in terms of weld cleaning, seam coating, basic material procurement and surface protection. Some of them failed horribly, which led to some brands (for instance: Mercedes) having an undisclosed hit against their earnings to deal with the resulting rust issues on relatively new cars. It wasn't rare at all to see an early 2000's C-Class in the shop for the replacement of four doors, bonnet and rear hatch. And it wasn't rare to see them completely rusted out either a few years later. From Q1 2003 they galvanized those panels and then the problem stopped. So everybody smartened up and now things are much better, to the point that there hardly are cars made that have serious rust issues. Coatings are a continuous materials science development front and some of the stuff that happened in the last decade and a half is extremely impressive. Car bodies used to be gone long before the engines, those days are over. VAG, Volvo, Mercedes, BMW all have a very good reputation nowadays for being rust resistant, I would not know of a favorite between those. By the way, Volvo is now Chinese (bought by scooter manufacturer Geely). My own car is a 1997 (just before they switched paint formulation for that particular brand) and there isn't a spot of rust on it and as far as I know it has never had body work done. (Don't get me started about engines though...)
    - wbsss4412 4y ago
      Volvo is owned by a Chinese parent company, but their operations are still based in the same places as before. Using the definition implied by your comment, they were previously and “American” car manufacturer as they were sold to geeley by ford. Edit: absurd typo, it is owned by a Chinese company.
hammock 4y ago
>This is an important issue. People keep talking about recycling, but much more important than recycling is just being able to use a thing for longer before you are even thinking about recycling it. Reduce, reuse, recycle. In that order
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  Exactly. Reducing is the exact opposite of oxidising. Don't let your car rust!
- ajkjk 4y ago
  Well perhaps "retain" should be added. Making something last longer isn't quite "reduce" or "reuse".
  - schroeding 4y ago
    Reduce trash by retaining things for longer. :D But you're right, IMO. Maybe it should be retain, if you can't retain try to reduce, if you can't reduce reuse, if you can't reuse recycle
  - mattnewton 4y ago
    Isn’t it reuse? Reduce - don’t buy another car, reuse - keep using your car, or buy a used car, recycle - sell your old car for scrap.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - justinator 4y ago
      Perhaps we should add, "Reconsider" as in, "Reconsider purchasing the item, when it's not needed, or a better alternative exists".
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
nradov 4y ago
Toyota has had a serious problem with truck frames rusting. https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/14/toyota-3-billion-settlement-rusty-truck-frames/ https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/14/toyota-3-billion-settlem...
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Their SUV/truck lower body panels also rust prematurely in the snow belt compared to contemporary American vehicles. This is particularly prominent on tailgates/hatches above the rear bumper when people don't diligently brush off the snow.
- Blackthorn 4y ago
  You can and should fix this yourself if you own one. Spray cosmoline or fluid film on the frame. Cosmoline is perfect because you can pressure wash the dirt off but it won't disturb the cosmoline film.
  - rasz 4y ago
    At this point there is nothing to spray on, it all fell apart. It was already bad at the moment they did the recall 6 years ago with frames having fist sized holes. The way you could fix it was cutting the frame up and replacing with fresh metal plates piece by piece.
hadlock 4y ago
Porsche started galvanizing their bodies in the 1970s, VW started in the 1980s, Japan only started galvanizing their bodies in export markets, in response to the germans, and only recently (last 15 years) have been galvanizing all their bodies domestic and import.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Famously, 1990's Mitsubishi and Subaru vehicles can basically rust down to the frame before the drivetrain stops functioning. And they don't wait long to start on the former.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    Interesting. Mine is a 2004 wrx and getting full of holes, but mechanic keeps assuring me drive train is solid and perfectly safe to drive.
    - hinkley 4y ago
      I'm not confident enough on when that era ended to say it magically ended in 2000, just that it hadn't ended by late enough in the 90's to use a big fat brush and say "the 90's". The closest I've been to a Mitsubishi or Subaru maven is 2 degrees of separation.
- kreeben 4y ago
  Toyotas cost nothing compared to Porches, so 1-0 Japan vs rest of the world.
  - Majestic121 4y ago
    VW is an affordable brand.
    - 4y ago
throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
that's a poor example of "modern". I've seen tools/parts that have been lying around wrapped in oiled paper since the 1930s, without a hint of rust.
- hristov 4y ago
  The parts lying in oil paper were probably also covered in oil or more likely grease. Oil paper by itself does little to prevent rust. There are costs associated with covering parts with grease. You have to apply it everywhere, for many applications, you have to remove it before actually using the part, etc. The product I linked automatically emits a chemical which clings to the metal and creates a microscopic protective barrier. The layer is so thin it does not affect the mechanical properties of the metal so it does not have to be removed. Although it will go away by itself several hours after the part is taken out of the special packaging. Anyways, I am not trying to sell the stuff, just letting people know what is available out there.
  - varjag 4y ago
    Inhibitor paper is old tech though, was already around in 1970s.
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    why not? it does inhibit air/moisture exposure the magic compound in the product you've linked doesn't cover the entire surface of the part you wrap in it, and it doesn't create a perfect seal, so it functions exactly as that oiled paper I saw did I saw some pretty intricate automotive parts preserved that way. granted, they weren't exposed to the elements, but still - pristine. shiny like factory-new
blinkingled 4y ago
Many manufacturers are also plastic sheilding their cars from down under. Improves wind flow, noise isolation and prevents rust.
pcurve 4y ago
"They did this mostly by using better paints and making sure cars and car parts are painted more thoroughly." Their cars last longer because they put more emphasis on durability and longevity than bleeding edge performance, for parts that matter in extending overall operating life of a vehicle. Germans may use their dollars differently, designs that require tighter tolerance for higher performance. They may also skimp out on actual durability testing, serviceability of parts, etc. Again, prioritizing performance over other attributes.
Ralo 4y ago
Owning a 1994 Toyota pickup, this truck has been argued as one of the toughest trucks ever made. However, they rust. Badly. It's usually the frame, starting from the inside where it collects dirt and water absorbs into it where it won't evaporate and will stay in there damp for months. Cutting and welding patches onto a frame isn't the biggest deal, and you can install drain holes with places to spray cavity wax coatings. Once it's rusty inside, you're gonna have a battle. It really needs to be coated from day and then maintained.
- rasz 4y ago
  I just posted a bunch of YT links that show how that process looks like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32233327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32233327

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

>Japanese automakers did the world a great favor when in the 80s and 90s they made much longer lasting cars and made longevity and resale value an important consideration in the purchasing decision. They did this mostly by using better paints and making sure cars and car parts are painted more thoroughly. This is baseless fanboyism. The European carmakers lead the way with various degrees of zinc plating and dipped coatings being widely implemented on their products in the 70s and 80s. Then around that time lead paint got banned in the US (creating that generation of cars that faded a lot in the 80s) and everybody in the US market was like "hey, we need alternatives that don't break the bank, let's copy what they're doing". The Japanese and US makers both upped their game for the north American market over roughly the same time period. The Japanese have never really taken corrosion prevention very seriously before or since. They and the US makes generally take a "we do as good a job as we need to remain competitive but we don't go above and beyond" attitude whereas the Europeans tend to put quite a bit more effort in. Edit: If you want someone to lie to you to confirm your biases that's not gonna be me.

mlyle 4y ago
> The European carmakers lead the way with various degrees of zinc plating and dipped coatings being widely implemented on their products in the 70s and 80s. Ford developed e-coat in the 50's. Everyone took up this to varying extents during the mid-to-late 70's. > whereas the Europeans tend to put quite a bit more effort in. I'm sorry, this just doesn't match my experience looking at mid-80's Japanese, American, and European cars. e.g. Porsche took up galvanizing during the transition from the 911S to the 911SC and further worked to improve coatings leading up to the Carrera 3.2 to attempt to control rust, but 3.2s still fared really poorly in the corrosion department. Ditto for BMWs of the era. > This is baseless fanboyism. > Edit: If you want someone to lie to you to confirm your biases that's not gonna be me. You just made a bunch of unsupported assertions yourself leaning in the opposite direction.
- Aloha 4y ago
  I came here to mention E-coat, though I'm thinking of it by another name, it's why in dry climates it's rare to see vintage fords rusted out, GM and Chrysler took longer to implement it.
- wizee 4y ago
  Porsche 944s and 928s are far more rust resistant than most American or Japanese cars of the 80s or even 90s. Likewise with Volvos. The classic 911 was an old design that went through iterative improvements, and the 964 is better rust-proofed than most American or Japanese cars of the late 80s or 90s. Old Audis tend to have minimal rust, and old Mercedes-Benzes like the W126, W124, and W201, while they certainly can and do rust, their bodies tend to far outlast Japanese and American cars of the same era driven in similar conditions. Old W124s still soldier on as daily drivers and winter beaters in the cold and salty environments of post-Soviet states with mostly OK bodies, whereas Japanese cars of the 1980s almost all rotted away beyond repair being worthwhile more than a decade ago.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    It is my impression that older Mercedes are pretty good in this department. I still see so many mid-80's Accords in the US. Yes, there's probably a somewhat smaller share of them that survived than mid-80's BMWs, but there's a lot of factors that go into survival (Honda == cheaper to keep going as a beater; BMW == higher initial value / treated nicer for the earlier parts of its lifespan).
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      You see so many mid 80s Accords in the US for the same reason you still see a lot of 90s Caddys despite them being objectively crap cars. The people who bought them could afford to keep them nice, not beat the shit out of them and maintain them as they needed it so they lasted. Your average 1990ish Accord commuter sedan lived a far, far, far easier life, at least for the first 10-15yr than your average Ford Taurus or Subaru Legacy family wagon and it shows in the number that are still around today. This is the same reason you see a lot more Grand Marquis and Town Cars to (non-cop) Crown Vics today than you did back when they were still making all those things. I cite this example specifically to control for literally every variable except the owners.

jacquesm 4y ago

Volvo led the way in this long before Japan got even close to figuring this out. That's why you still see ancient Volvo's drive around in numbers that are just way higher than any other brand.

bradfa 4y ago
Are modern Volvos still better than average for corrosion resistance?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Somewhere in the late 90's early 2000's car manufacturers switched paint processes, typically to a water based paint. That's the point in time where you could see the most clearly which manufacturers had their house in order in terms of weld cleaning, seam coating, basic material procurement and surface protection. Some of them failed horribly, which led to some brands (for instance: Mercedes) having an undisclosed hit against their earnings to deal with the resulting rust issues on relatively new cars. It wasn't rare at all to see an early 2000's C-Class in the shop for the replacement of four doors, bonnet and rear hatch. And it wasn't rare to see them completely rusted out either a few years later. From Q1 2003 they galvanized those panels and then the problem stopped. So everybody smartened up and now things are much better, to the point that there hardly are cars made that have serious rust issues. Coatings are a continuous materials science development front and some of the stuff that happened in the last decade and a half is extremely impressive. Car bodies used to be gone long before the engines, those days are over. VAG, Volvo, Mercedes, BMW all have a very good reputation nowadays for being rust resistant, I would not know of a favorite between those. By the way, Volvo is now Chinese (bought by scooter manufacturer Geely). My own car is a 1997 (just before they switched paint formulation for that particular brand) and there isn't a spot of rust on it and as far as I know it has never had body work done. (Don't get me started about engines though...)
  - wbsss4412 4y ago
    Volvo is owned by a Chinese parent company, but their operations are still based in the same places as before. Using the definition implied by your comment, they were previously and “American” car manufacturer as they were sold to geeley by ford. Edit: absurd typo, it is owned by a Chinese company.

hammock 4y ago

>This is an important issue. People keep talking about recycling, but much more important than recycling is just being able to use a thing for longer before you are even thinking about recycling it. Reduce, reuse, recycle. In that order

robertlagrant 4y ago
Exactly. Reducing is the exact opposite of oxidising. Don't let your car rust!
ajkjk 4y ago
Well perhaps "retain" should be added. Making something last longer isn't quite "reduce" or "reuse".
- schroeding 4y ago
  Reduce trash by retaining things for longer. :D But you're right, IMO. Maybe it should be retain, if you can't retain try to reduce, if you can't reduce reuse, if you can't reuse recycle
- mattnewton 4y ago
  Isn’t it reuse? Reduce - don’t buy another car, reuse - keep using your car, or buy a used car, recycle - sell your old car for scrap.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - justinator 4y ago
    Perhaps we should add, "Reconsider" as in, "Reconsider purchasing the item, when it's not needed, or a better alternative exists".
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

nradov 4y ago

Toyota has had a serious problem with truck frames rusting. https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/14/toyota-3-billion-settlement-rusty-truck-frames/ https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/14/toyota-3-billion-settlem...

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Their SUV/truck lower body panels also rust prematurely in the snow belt compared to contemporary American vehicles. This is particularly prominent on tailgates/hatches above the rear bumper when people don't diligently brush off the snow.
Blackthorn 4y ago
You can and should fix this yourself if you own one. Spray cosmoline or fluid film on the frame. Cosmoline is perfect because you can pressure wash the dirt off but it won't disturb the cosmoline film.
- rasz 4y ago
  At this point there is nothing to spray on, it all fell apart. It was already bad at the moment they did the recall 6 years ago with frames having fist sized holes. The way you could fix it was cutting the frame up and replacing with fresh metal plates piece by piece.

hadlock 4y ago

Porsche started galvanizing their bodies in the 1970s, VW started in the 1980s, Japan only started galvanizing their bodies in export markets, in response to the germans, and only recently (last 15 years) have been galvanizing all their bodies domestic and import.

hinkley 4y ago
Famously, 1990's Mitsubishi and Subaru vehicles can basically rust down to the frame before the drivetrain stops functioning. And they don't wait long to start on the former.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Interesting. Mine is a 2004 wrx and getting full of holes, but mechanic keeps assuring me drive train is solid and perfectly safe to drive.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    I'm not confident enough on when that era ended to say it magically ended in 2000, just that it hadn't ended by late enough in the 90's to use a big fat brush and say "the 90's". The closest I've been to a Mitsubishi or Subaru maven is 2 degrees of separation.
kreeben 4y ago
Toyotas cost nothing compared to Porches, so 1-0 Japan vs rest of the world.
- Majestic121 4y ago
  VW is an affordable brand.
  - 4y ago

throwaway0x7E6 4y ago

that's a poor example of "modern". I've seen tools/parts that have been lying around wrapped in oiled paper since the 1930s, without a hint of rust.

hristov 4y ago
The parts lying in oil paper were probably also covered in oil or more likely grease. Oil paper by itself does little to prevent rust. There are costs associated with covering parts with grease. You have to apply it everywhere, for many applications, you have to remove it before actually using the part, etc. The product I linked automatically emits a chemical which clings to the metal and creates a microscopic protective barrier. The layer is so thin it does not affect the mechanical properties of the metal so it does not have to be removed. Although it will go away by itself several hours after the part is taken out of the special packaging. Anyways, I am not trying to sell the stuff, just letting people know what is available out there.
- varjag 4y ago
  Inhibitor paper is old tech though, was already around in 1970s.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  why not? it does inhibit air/moisture exposure the magic compound in the product you've linked doesn't cover the entire surface of the part you wrap in it, and it doesn't create a perfect seal, so it functions exactly as that oiled paper I saw did I saw some pretty intricate automotive parts preserved that way. granted, they weren't exposed to the elements, but still - pristine. shiny like factory-new

blinkingled 4y ago

Many manufacturers are also plastic sheilding their cars from down under. Improves wind flow, noise isolation and prevents rust.

pcurve 4y ago

"They did this mostly by using better paints and making sure cars and car parts are painted more thoroughly." Their cars last longer because they put more emphasis on durability and longevity than bleeding edge performance, for parts that matter in extending overall operating life of a vehicle. Germans may use their dollars differently, designs that require tighter tolerance for higher performance. They may also skimp out on actual durability testing, serviceability of parts, etc. Again, prioritizing performance over other attributes.

Ralo 4y ago

Owning a 1994 Toyota pickup, this truck has been argued as one of the toughest trucks ever made. However, they rust. Badly. It's usually the frame, starting from the inside where it collects dirt and water absorbs into it where it won't evaporate and will stay in there damp for months. Cutting and welding patches onto a frame isn't the biggest deal, and you can install drain holes with places to spray cavity wax coatings. Once it's rusty inside, you're gonna have a battle. It really needs to be coated from day and then maintained.

rasz 4y ago
I just posted a bunch of YT links that show how that process looks like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32233327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32233327