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The Global Cost of Corrosion
- williamscales 4y agoI found it remarkable that the term “corrosion”, which underpins the whole work, was never defined.
- jdarroyaveh 4y agoAn extremely important topic, especially since I've been hearing about it all my life (disclaimer, my father, past president of the International Corrosion Council (ICC) and 2022 recipient of the Corrosion Awareness Award from the World Corrosion Organisation (WCO), the European Federation of Corrosion (EFC) and the Chinese Society of Corrosion and Protection (CSCP) https://corrosion.org/Awards.html https://corrosion.org/Awards.html). For those who want to learn a little more about his insights and the summary of a long career, 2 years ago he set up this free blog just about corrosion: https://news.materials.business https://news.materials.business. For example, he talks about how he calculated the international cost of corrosion damage for 2019 to be USD$4.8 trillion. And only a fraction of that amount represents the cost of steel that had to be replaced due to corrosion problems. (https://news.materials.business/19/01/2021/engineering-materials-the-real-cost https://news.materials.business/19/01/2021/engineering-mater...)
- HPsquared 4y agoRust's a Must, by T.R.B. Watson: """ Mighty ships upon the ocean Suffer from severe corrosion Even those that stay at dockside Are rapidly becoming oxide. Alas, that piling in the sea Is mostly FE2O3 And when the ocean meets the shore, You'll find there's FE3O4. 'Cause when the wind is salt and gusty Things are getting awful rusty We can measure it, we can test it We can halt it or arrest it We can gather it and weigh it We can coat it, we can spray it We can examine and dissect it We can cathodically protect it We can pick it up and drop it But heaven knows, we'll never stop it. So here's to rust: No doubt about it, Most of us would starve without it. """
- pygy_ 4y agoI have a song about this (in French) sung from the vantage point of near future robots. https://soundcloud.com/user-876103472/lennui-cest-loxyge-ne https://soundcloud.com/user-876103472/lennui-cest-loxyge-ne Long story short: screw the meatbags, let's get rid of atmospheric oxygen...
- countvonbalzac 4y agoWhy aren't bridges and ships made out of stainless steel? Is it too expensive, or not as strong as regular steel?
- denimnerd42 4y agoThere is a steel called Corten where the rust develops a protective layer similar to aluminum and won't rust all the way through. The only issue is it isn't good when exposed to constant water as the rust will wash off and not protect.
- Arrath 4y agoSome may also find the rusted patina look less than ideal. Personally I don't mind it at all.
- denimnerd42 4y agosome people use it as an architectural element. they'll build planters, roofs, siding, fences...
- kibwen 4y agoThe USX Tower ("The Steel Building") in Pittsburgh is made entirely of Corten, designed to showcase the material when it was first developed. Other than turning all the sidewalks black when it was first weathering it seems to work great, as long as you're into the industrial aesthetic.
- denimnerd42 4y agoProbably just insanely expensive. Just the welding process for stainless alone would add so much.
- apatil 4y agoAccording to http://www.kastenmarine.com/metalboats.htm http://www.kastenmarine.com/metalboats.htm, mostly cost plus other drawbacks that sound like they would not be blockers if the cost were lower. That author thinks monel would be even better than stainless, but it's even more expensive.
- jtlienwis 4y agoThe environmentalists killed a zinc mine in my state due to pollution concerns. Of course every pound of zinc not mined meant more steel without zinc protection, and hence more rust and more mining of iron ore. Arguments like this were completely lost on them.
- LatteLazy 4y agoOr just mine the zinc elsewhere?!
- Aloha 4y agoEventually we'll run out of elsewhere. Like pushing our pollution into the developing world is both immoral and harmful to our economy.
- fxtentacle 4y agoPlus if they put it into the ocean, the pollution will flow back to us.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoHow much is pushed vs pulled?Many resource extraction projects are cancelled because they wouldn't be economical with all the added costs to ameliorate pollution. Perhaps if the developing world had higher standards and better enforcement, it would cost more and thus not undercut local production.
- swagasaurus-rex 4y agoSounds like a race to the bottom. If a poor community upheld its dignity and required additional costs to keep the environment from harm, it would get outbid by a more exploitative seller.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoAbsolutely. Add in some greed, corruption and ignorance and you've got a recipe for where we are today. And yet people blame environmentalists?
- bilsbie 4y agoThis is why I get scared when I see articles about people developing plastic eating bacteria. Sure it is great for reducing waste but it’s a dangerous game to be playing for sure.
- jacquesm 4y agoNo, plastic was the mistake. That was the dangerous game, those plastic eating bacteria are one way to restore some of the natural order and hopefully at some point they'd run out of food.
- riversflow 4y agoHow is “plastic was the mistake” any more reasonable than “electricity was the mistake” Plastic is indispensable just like electricity.
- jacquesm 4y agoPlastic is indispensable completely unlike electricity is indispensable. Plastic is a huge pollutant, with breakdown stats that make you cry once you start thinking in terms of tons of absolutely indestructible stuff that makes it into our environment every day. Only a very small fraction of that stuff really needed to be made from plastic. Mostly it is just done because it is cheap and mechanically well understood. And because - tadaaaa - it lasts longer than most other materials. But the result is that the plastic invariably outlasts everything else, and it is super hard to recycle it efficiently unless it was expressly made to be recycled, which it rarely is. Electricity is a highly fungible form of energy, in every way that matters unlike plastic and for which we do not have any alternatives that come close to having the same kind of properties for everyday use.
- nomel 4y agoWhat do you see as the material that could have been used, or could be used, to replace plastic?
- hristov 4y agoThis is an important issue. People keep talking about recycling, but much more important than recycling is just being able to use a thing for longer before you are even thinking about recycling it. Japanese automakers did the world a great favor when in the 80s and 90s they made much longer lasting cars and made longevity and resale value an important consideration in the purchasing decision. They did this mostly by using better paints and making sure cars and car parts are painted more thoroughly. There are modern materials that prevent corrosion. Here is a company that sells ordinary looking paper that you can use to wrap anything and it will prevent it from rusting. https://www.zerust.com/ https://www.zerust.com/
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago>Japanese automakers did the world a great favor when in the 80s and 90s they made much longer lasting cars and made longevity and resale value an important consideration in the purchasing decision. They did this mostly by using better paints and making sure cars and car parts are painted more thoroughly. This is baseless fanboyism. The European carmakers lead the way with various degrees of zinc plating and dipped coatings being widely implemented on their products in the 70s and 80s. Then around that time lead paint got banned in the US (creating that generation of cars that faded a lot in the 80s) and everybody in the US market was like "hey, we need alternatives that don't break the bank, let's copy what they're doing". The Japanese and US makers both upped their game for the north American market over roughly the same time period. The Japanese have never really taken corrosion prevention very seriously before or since. They and the US makes generally take a "we do as good a job as we need to remain competitive but we don't go above and beyond" attitude whereas the Europeans tend to put quite a bit more effort in. Edit: If you want someone to lie to you to confirm your biases that's not gonna be me.
- mlyle 4y ago> The European carmakers lead the way with various degrees of zinc plating and dipped coatings being widely implemented on their products in the 70s and 80s. Ford developed e-coat in the 50's. Everyone took up this to varying extents during the mid-to-late 70's. > whereas the Europeans tend to put quite a bit more effort in. I'm sorry, this just doesn't match my experience looking at mid-80's Japanese, American, and European cars. e.g. Porsche took up galvanizing during the transition from the 911S to the 911SC and further worked to improve coatings leading up to the Carrera 3.2 to attempt to control rust, but 3.2s still fared really poorly in the corrosion department. Ditto for BMWs of the era. > This is baseless fanboyism. > Edit: If you want someone to lie to you to confirm your biases that's not gonna be me. You just made a bunch of unsupported assertions yourself leaning in the opposite direction.
- smm11 4y agoFloating metal in salt water. Yeah?
- ip26 4y agoWith a dry dock, paint, and enough labor that doesn’t have to be a huge problem. Just look at Navy salvage operations returning sunken ships to service.
- fest 4y agoA soviet-era book on machining I recently read stated that up until that point, about 40% of the total steel and cast iron production since 1890 has been lost to corrosion.
- boringg 4y agoIsn't this like corrosion engineers validating their own industry? I mean it's a fair talking point but also like asking VCs how good their returns are?
- corncob15 4y agoReminds me of the perennial reports from the American Society of Civil Engineers talking about how the US's infrastructure is degraded and everyone had better hire a lot of civil engineers to fix it.
- boringg 4y agoExactly - right?
- imchillyb 4y ago> https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/11/15/the-time-is-now-to-modernize-u-s-infrastructure/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/11/15/... > …Public investment in U.S. infrastructure as a share of GDP has fallen by more than 40 percent since the 1960s. The World Economic Forum now ranks the United States 13th when it comes to the overall quality of infrastructure...
- boringg 4y agoI'm not saying it isn't right, I'm just pointing out the inherent bias. Infrastructure in the US is woefully lacking.
- asimpletune 4y agoI’ve spent years working on a VW bus restoration, and this is something I’ve thought about so much. Once you’ve had to clean up rust you begin to see it everywhere. It’s like having a disease. Anyways, yeah it would be fantastic if metal just didn’t corrode. That would be one of the greatest gifts to the world.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- function_seven 4y agoThere are these world-changing inventions we look back on and marvel at. The Haber–Bosch process, the Bessemer process, rubber vulcanization, etc. My dream is one for stainless steel. Come up with either a different alloy or an improved process to make corrosion-proof metal from abundant iron. I can't imagine the leap forward if a chunk of stainless cost nearly the same as mild steel. (And didn't have weird failure modes, etc.)
- Animats 4y agoThere's a lot to be said for stainless steel. But look at the price of chromium.
- function_seven 4y agoRight. I guess a replacement alloy would be the best bet. No matter how cheap your improved process is, the input costs are still there. Or an improved process for extracting and refining chromium itself. Aside from cost, I think it’s a dirty process as well?
- kortex 4y agoYeah, chromium and nickel, two of the chief components that put the stainless in stainless-steel, are rather toxic in most/all oxidation states (Cr3+ is weirdly biologically necessary but toxic in high doses). Their refining process is pretty nasty too - lots of cyanide / carbonyl (monoxide) complexes, and mining is just generally filthy. Automation and cheaper electricity would drive down the cost of recovering metals from aqueous waste.
- nradov 4y agoFor those who want a deeper dive into this subject read the book “Rust: The Longest War" by Jonathan Waldman. https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Rust/Jonathan-Waldman/9781451691603 https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Rust/Jonathan-Waldman...
- alexfromapex 4y agoNothing more annoying than having a car slowly depreciate only because of rust and not having any type of other issues
- kolbe 4y agoI imagine a substantial part of this is the rusting of rebar in concrete structures. The problem of rebar has fascinated me, and one German company has begin making carbon fiber reinforced concrete instead of steel, with amazing results. You can reduce environmental waste by having structures last longer and you use less concrete. I'm looking forward to this becoming more ubiquitous. https://www.aboutcivil.org/carbon-reinforced-concrete-building-cube https://www.aboutcivil.org/carbon-reinforced-concrete-buildi...
- jabl 4y agoWrt to salt water corrosion, having been around folks involved with boats and boatbuilding all my life, the 'best' material for building a boat or yacht is an ever-green topic with no resolution in sight. Of course, for factory-produced boats made in large series, GRP reigns supreme, which is why most boats out there are GRP, but for one-offs it's still hotly debated. Steel, aluminum, wood (in all kinds of variations), GRP all have their pros and cons. People even made yachts out of ferrocement, though it seems the popularity of that method has waned.
- aftbit 4y agoGRP => Glass Reinforced Plastic
- devy 4y agoSounds like a startup idea/thesis?
- wongarsu 4y agoFor the spin-off of a university's material science department, sure. But it's not like it's an obscure problem that nobody does anything about, lots of companies, universities and governments spend a lot of effort and money on finding better ways to deal with it.
- JackFr 4y ago
- globalreset 4y agoThese HN posts about Rust are out of control.
- shepherdjerred 4y agoWith 3% of the world's GDP it's going to be an unstoppable language
- swagasaurus-rex 4y agothe time of the rustaceans is upon us
- a9h74j 4y agobeginning of the Rustocene layer
- ur-whale 4y agoIf you aren't yet attuned to this specific aspect of life on Earth, owning an Atlantic-facing beach house on the Florida coast will teach you that lesson real quick.
- neves 4y agoI live somewhat near the beach. How can I prevent my electronic gadgets to rust?
- t_mann 4y agoBtw, since this is a common misconception: the cost for repairing / replacing corroded metal actually increases GDP. It's not clear from the article what they mean by 'costs' (they could also mean how many other goods weren't produced because of corrosion damage, which would be lost GDP), but that's something to be aware of.
- rsync 4y ago... came here to say this. I have spent so much more money on stainless and galvanized parts and taken many expensive precautions, followed expensive building practices, etc. due to rust. This was increased economic activity. Not saying it was morally positive but it certainly increased GDP ...
- nickff 4y agoYou’re falling victim to the so-called ‘broken windows fallacy’ here. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fa...
- jupiter909 4y agoRust - The Longest War; is a book about this topic, very insightful read. https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Longest-War-Jonathan-Waldman/dp/1451691602 https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Longest-War-Jonathan-Waldman/dp/...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- aaron695 4y ago