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Fortunately all of this is eliminated with EVs: much less brake dust (regenerative braking), no combustion, no catalytic converters, no oil leaks. All that's l

Fortunately all of this is eliminated with EVs: much less brake dust (regenerative braking), no combustion, no catalytic converters, no oil leaks. All that's left is tire wear, potentially a little higher due to increased typical weight of EVs and faster acceleration.

jeffbee 4y ago
Tire dust is half of it, though. It can be reduced by shipping cars with high-efficiency tires instead of high-performance tires.
- jtbayly 4y ago
  What are the upsides and downsides of high-efficiency tires, compared to high-performance tires? I'm not familiar with the terms, in spite of having bought tires several times.
  - __alexs 4y ago
    high-efficiency tyres have less rolling resistance and as a result are usually made of a harder rubber. as a result they also have less grip but this is fine if you adjust your speeds to match the conditions appropriately. some of them have additives in the rubber to try and get some of the lost grip back.
    - redtexture 4y ago
      Distiction: Winter tires are made of a softer rubber compound, to be more flexible in winter termperatures. These softer winter tires wear very rapidly in summer temperatures, and experience a drive may have if they fail to change out their winter tires to the summer seasonal tires.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Half by what metric?
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    Mass pm2.5 and pm10 emissions per vehicle-km.
    - arijun 4y ago
      That's a good point, but it might not be the whole story. It's possible that tailpipe emissions are worse for your health than small rubber particles from tires
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      That doesn't seem particularly relevant when some of the other things are highly poisonous? Why would you focus on that when the review is talking about studies showing health impacts and only mentions tires once, explaining that general environmental dust becomes "road dust" when kicked up by tires?
OliverM 4y ago
Isn't dust from tyre wear a major point of concern? E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/25/tyre-dust-the-stealth-pollutant-becoming-a-huge-threat-to-ocean-life https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/25/tyre-dus...
- jacobolus 4y ago
  What’s the relationship between car speed vs. tire wear? What about weight? How much difference can be made by changing the road surface? Do the quieter types of road surface also reduce the amount of tire dust?
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    Wear is inversely related to speed because the wear comes from acceleration, not from rolling at a steady speed. Starting and stopping and turning in urban driving wears tires more than cruising down a motorway.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      Rolling also incurs wear. Going at a constant speed still requires shear stress on the tires like acceleration does (to counter air resistance, etc). So reduction in air resistance can also help reduce tire wear. EV drivers typically brake a little more gradually to maximize regeneration compared to conventional braking. Having each wheel be driven by electric motors with careful traction control can minimize tire wear as well. If tire wear is the problem we’re trying to address, it might be a good idea to include a specific fee to address it. Related to tire composition and regular annual inspection of tires. That way wear can be minimized in an effective way. Or we develop tire tread whose wear particulates are not a major problem. Which brings up a point: we have little to no evidence that tire particulates DO pose an actual problem, unlike PAHs, which we do have evidence for. Rubber is somewhat biodegradable already. And the wear particles may be of a size distribution that isn’t so problematic. Detection or extrapolation of existence is not evidence for a problem. We are multiple levels removed from EVs theoretically having higher weight to actual known health problems here, and likely due to better control and lower rolling resistance, it’s likely EVs are superior.
yabones 4y ago
EVs aren't going to save the world, but they will save the auto industry for a few years.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  If the V for vehicle is taken literally, then they will do more good than just big BEV SUVs in cities designed around cars. Think delivery moped and ebike trikes, or commuter ebikes, trains and buses. Last mile delivery vehicles etc. But, if the alternative to the BEV SUV is an ICE SUV then they'll still help a lot, saving lots of money and many lives.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Basically no lefties/urbanites would’ve made that argument before Tesla made EVs viable and attractive to normies. Back in the “Who Killed the Electric Car” days, it would’ve been extremely odd for people with environmental concerns to be like that. EVs are a massive, massive improvement, and while I like improving stuff (or using alternatives) to reduce further downsides, I don’t think we should look a gift horse in the mouth, here.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    As a city-dweller whose main practical problems with cars are around pedestrian and cyclist safety, noise pollution, and the hostility of car-centric infrastructure to human life in general, this sounds a lot like "you'll take what we give you and be happy about it."
    - wongarsu 4y ago
      As a city-dweller, I'll be glad when the decline of ICE cars removes the loud sound of accelerating engines, and the reduction of PM2.5 particulates improves my health. Sure, it's not a cure-all, and more pedestrian areas, better bicycle infrastructure, more medium-density housing with walkable neighborhoods, and heat-pumps instead of burning oil or gas are still important issues. But just switching from ICE to electric engines is a cheap win that I'm glad to get as well.
ehnto 4y ago
I think weight of EVs is a "how long is a piece of string" discussion though. Which EV, and heavy compared to the average car, or compared to a feature equivalent ICE car? Currently large luxury EVs are in favor in the American market, but that'll probably change once smaller affordable EVs hit the market and fill out demand amongst the more common vehicle price points. There's also no shortage of truly behemoth ICE vehicles getting about, so I'm not sure it counts as a practical con for EV's just yet.
- enragedcacti 4y ago
  I have been arguing that we should be comparing EVs to their highest volume ICE counterparts in their class/tier of vehicle since that is going to be the most common upgrade path as EVs get more available and affordable. Additionally, we should look at TCO rather than MSRP for tiers since maintenance costs are so different. If comparing similar size/TCO vehicles with high volume, The lightest Model 3 weighs more than the heaviest Camrys and Accords and the lightest Model Y weighs more than the heaviest CR-Vs and Rav-4s. On top of that, Tesla is way ahead of most EVs on weight with the 3/Y. Similar range vehicles like the polestar 2 or the Ioniq 5 are really heavy by comparison. In the US "capability" (even when we don't actually use it) is such a huge sell for many that I don't think were going to see a cultural shift to buying a smaller class of vehicle as you switch to EV. If anything Americans buy up as the operating costs go down.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    > In the US "capability" (even when we don't actually use it) is such a huge sell for many that I don't think were going to see a cultural shift to buying a smaller class of vehicle as you switch to EV. EVs mean more power, more AWD, more cargo room than comparable ICE vehicles. More "capability", as you say. At the same time, the reduced range discourages going for a larger, bloated vehicle you don't need. I can definitely imagine a lot of the families that have a crossover / smaller SUV now deciding to go with a sedan like the model 3. It has all the cargo storage they need and has the power / AWD they are used to.
    - 4y ago

jeffbee 4y ago

Tire dust is half of it, though. It can be reduced by shipping cars with high-efficiency tires instead of high-performance tires.

jtbayly 4y ago
What are the upsides and downsides of high-efficiency tires, compared to high-performance tires? I'm not familiar with the terms, in spite of having bought tires several times.
- __alexs 4y ago
  high-efficiency tyres have less rolling resistance and as a result are usually made of a harder rubber. as a result they also have less grip but this is fine if you adjust your speeds to match the conditions appropriately. some of them have additives in the rubber to try and get some of the lost grip back.
  - redtexture 4y ago
    Distiction: Winter tires are made of a softer rubber compound, to be more flexible in winter termperatures. These softer winter tires wear very rapidly in summer temperatures, and experience a drive may have if they fail to change out their winter tires to the summer seasonal tires.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Half by what metric?
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Mass pm2.5 and pm10 emissions per vehicle-km.
  - arijun 4y ago
    That's a good point, but it might not be the whole story. It's possible that tailpipe emissions are worse for your health than small rubber particles from tires
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    That doesn't seem particularly relevant when some of the other things are highly poisonous? Why would you focus on that when the review is talking about studies showing health impacts and only mentions tires once, explaining that general environmental dust becomes "road dust" when kicked up by tires?

OliverM 4y ago

Isn't dust from tyre wear a major point of concern? E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/25/tyre-dust-the-stealth-pollutant-becoming-a-huge-threat-to-ocean-life https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/25/tyre-dus...

jacobolus 4y ago
What’s the relationship between car speed vs. tire wear? What about weight? How much difference can be made by changing the road surface? Do the quieter types of road surface also reduce the amount of tire dust?
- jeffbee 4y ago
  Wear is inversely related to speed because the wear comes from acceleration, not from rolling at a steady speed. Starting and stopping and turning in urban driving wears tires more than cruising down a motorway.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    Rolling also incurs wear. Going at a constant speed still requires shear stress on the tires like acceleration does (to counter air resistance, etc). So reduction in air resistance can also help reduce tire wear. EV drivers typically brake a little more gradually to maximize regeneration compared to conventional braking. Having each wheel be driven by electric motors with careful traction control can minimize tire wear as well. If tire wear is the problem we’re trying to address, it might be a good idea to include a specific fee to address it. Related to tire composition and regular annual inspection of tires. That way wear can be minimized in an effective way. Or we develop tire tread whose wear particulates are not a major problem. Which brings up a point: we have little to no evidence that tire particulates DO pose an actual problem, unlike PAHs, which we do have evidence for. Rubber is somewhat biodegradable already. And the wear particles may be of a size distribution that isn’t so problematic. Detection or extrapolation of existence is not evidence for a problem. We are multiple levels removed from EVs theoretically having higher weight to actual known health problems here, and likely due to better control and lower rolling resistance, it’s likely EVs are superior.

yabones 4y ago

EVs aren't going to save the world, but they will save the auto industry for a few years.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
If the V for vehicle is taken literally, then they will do more good than just big BEV SUVs in cities designed around cars. Think delivery moped and ebike trikes, or commuter ebikes, trains and buses. Last mile delivery vehicles etc. But, if the alternative to the BEV SUV is an ICE SUV then they'll still help a lot, saving lots of money and many lives.
Robotbeat 4y ago
Basically no lefties/urbanites would’ve made that argument before Tesla made EVs viable and attractive to normies. Back in the “Who Killed the Electric Car” days, it would’ve been extremely odd for people with environmental concerns to be like that. EVs are a massive, massive improvement, and while I like improving stuff (or using alternatives) to reduce further downsides, I don’t think we should look a gift horse in the mouth, here.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  As a city-dweller whose main practical problems with cars are around pedestrian and cyclist safety, noise pollution, and the hostility of car-centric infrastructure to human life in general, this sounds a lot like "you'll take what we give you and be happy about it."
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    As a city-dweller, I'll be glad when the decline of ICE cars removes the loud sound of accelerating engines, and the reduction of PM2.5 particulates improves my health. Sure, it's not a cure-all, and more pedestrian areas, better bicycle infrastructure, more medium-density housing with walkable neighborhoods, and heat-pumps instead of burning oil or gas are still important issues. But just switching from ICE to electric engines is a cheap win that I'm glad to get as well.

ehnto 4y ago

I think weight of EVs is a "how long is a piece of string" discussion though. Which EV, and heavy compared to the average car, or compared to a feature equivalent ICE car? Currently large luxury EVs are in favor in the American market, but that'll probably change once smaller affordable EVs hit the market and fill out demand amongst the more common vehicle price points. There's also no shortage of truly behemoth ICE vehicles getting about, so I'm not sure it counts as a practical con for EV's just yet.

enragedcacti 4y ago
I have been arguing that we should be comparing EVs to their highest volume ICE counterparts in their class/tier of vehicle since that is going to be the most common upgrade path as EVs get more available and affordable. Additionally, we should look at TCO rather than MSRP for tiers since maintenance costs are so different. If comparing similar size/TCO vehicles with high volume, The lightest Model 3 weighs more than the heaviest Camrys and Accords and the lightest Model Y weighs more than the heaviest CR-Vs and Rav-4s. On top of that, Tesla is way ahead of most EVs on weight with the 3/Y. Similar range vehicles like the polestar 2 or the Ioniq 5 are really heavy by comparison. In the US "capability" (even when we don't actually use it) is such a huge sell for many that I don't think were going to see a cultural shift to buying a smaller class of vehicle as you switch to EV. If anything Americans buy up as the operating costs go down.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  > In the US "capability" (even when we don't actually use it) is such a huge sell for many that I don't think were going to see a cultural shift to buying a smaller class of vehicle as you switch to EV. EVs mean more power, more AWD, more cargo room than comparable ICE vehicles. More "capability", as you say. At the same time, the reduced range discourages going for a larger, bloated vehicle you don't need. I can definitely imagine a lot of the families that have a crossover / smaller SUV now deciding to go with a sedan like the model 3. It has all the cargo storage they need and has the power / AWD they are used to.
  - 4y ago