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“ For example, right now there are lots of Russians who think it's fine to invade, kill and steal, not for safety, fairness or justice for everyone. They just w

“ For example, right now there are lots of Russians who think it's fine to invade, kill and steal, not for safety, fairness or justice for everyone. They just want better for their tribe.” I think is a way oversimplification of geopolitical situation in Ukraine and Russian motives. Just my two cents

Sporktacular 4y ago
Sure, but I'm not trying to capture the geopolitical situation there. It's only an example. Some people do think this way (for example displaying the Z as a tribal symbol) and that's enough reason to not just assume charitability or altruism on another's part. IMO it's an oversimplification to do otherwise.
causi 4y ago
Not by as much as you might think when your standards have been informed by more conventional models of state-led evil. Vranyo is a cultural disease whose impact cannot be overstated. I'll leave it to a Russian to explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1pOahq4TCk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1pOahq4TCk
deelly 4y ago
Oversimplification from which point of view? Russians, Ukrainians, or some outside observer?
- malwrar 4y ago
  I think OP means Russia’s actions are much better understood by their national interest and history, rather than by the individual barbarity of their troops. Russia should not be in Ukraine and should not be firing missiles into population centers, but they are. Their reasons for doing so appear more complicated than mere evil. To be explicit, if you count conflicts from Napoleon on up to WWII, from Russia’s perspective they have fought defense wars on the north european plains once every ~33 years. Their greatest existential threat is a united europe, who frequently meddle in its affairs and approach further by way of NATO expansion despite in some cases explicitly promising otherwise. Ukraine, a previous warsaw pact country, is a prospective NATO member who not only represents a convenient corridor into Russia but also controls a large stretch of coast (Russia wants this) and has massive plains for food production and tank conveyance. Under this interpretation, Russia seeks to resist expansion of a european alliance composed of several former enemies and retain access to key strategic locations outside its borders. Russia’s motives are much more tangible under this perspective, and who knows maybe there’s a solution we’re not seeing from that perspective than one that places outsized emphasis on individual atrocities. It’s a war, after all, and doesn’t appear to be stopping despite the upset faces of spectators.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    You make a reasoned argument why Russia might want to invade Ukraine while ignoring Russia's actual actions. Russia keeps changing it's stated 'reasons', with Russian's themselves saying the silent part you ignore out loud. They say Ukraine is not a real country, Ukrainians are not a separate people from Russians, and that because Ukraine tried to go it's own way it must be folded back into mother Russia and along with Belarus create a new slavic union. Ukrainian is being removed from the schools in Russian conquered land. Ukrainian books are being removed. Russia has human trafficked 2 million people from Ukraine to Russia at this point. None of that is to protect Russia from NATO. Why do you cover Russia's visible actions with a pretty pretense? Russia has said it is fine with Finland joining NATO, greatly expanding NATO on Russia's border. Your argument makes no sense outside the theoretical paragraphs in which you write it.
    - malwrar 4y ago
      > Why do you cover Russia's visible actions with a pretty pretense? Some of Russia’s individual politicians and news outlets no doubt have genuine nationalistic motivations surrounding Ukraine, but it is not clear to me that these are the predominant motives for spending Russian lives and risking Russian security by engaging their forces in an armed conflict. The rhetoric and actions you cite is probably believed and condoned by an increasingly nonzero percentage of the population, but I’m personally not convinced these are much more than pretexts useful to the state in providing political cover to what is ultimately a sovereign chess move (prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, demotivate it and others from future attempts). Russia benefited massively by their previous USSR-era relationship with the surrounding baltic states, and Putin, a former USSR man, has said [1] that the breakup of the warsaw pact was one of Russia’s greatest geopolitical tragedies. I believe his greatest defensive focus is on re-establishing a buffer zone between it and western powers, and likely it’s longer term goals include acquisition of warm water ports and influence over the oil trade. This does, of course, not justify any of Russia’s actions on a moral basis. I expect many Russian officials will be tried and convicted of war crimes. It merely provides a basis by which european leaders/armchair presidents (me) can ground Russia’s actions and plot countermoves. > Russia has said it is fine with Finland joining NATO, greatly expanding NATO on Russia's border. Not even a year ago Russia implied a military consequence if Finland was to join NATO [2]. A few months after this statement was given Russia invaded Ukraine, though this ironically emboldened Finlanders into being majority in favor of joining NATO. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Geography-Coming-Conflicts-Against/dp/0812982223/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=db45cb40-2ed9-4c25-a782-79b583d2da12 https://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Geography-Coming-Conflicts-Ag... (can’t find a source for the exact quote, but cited in chapter 2). [2]: https://www.wionews.com/world/russia-warns-nato-against-inclusion-of-finland-sweden-440093 https://www.wionews.com/world/russia-warns-nato-against-incl...
leaflets2 4y ago
> a way oversimplification Indeed, not all but some of the attackers instead want to kill the men and rape the women in Ukraine -- rather than caring that much about their own tribe. Some double digit percentage of the male population whether you are, starts doing that, if they have the chance. It's reproduction, evolution, been going on for hundreds of thousands of years "Star man"
mcguire 4y ago
I believe they were specifically referring to the behavior of Russian soldiers who were reportedly sending valuable objects from Ukraine back to their relatives as well as executing civilians.

Sporktacular 4y ago

Sure, but I'm not trying to capture the geopolitical situation there. It's only an example. Some people do think this way (for example displaying the Z as a tribal symbol) and that's enough reason to not just assume charitability or altruism on another's part. IMO it's an oversimplification to do otherwise.

causi 4y ago

Not by as much as you might think when your standards have been informed by more conventional models of state-led evil. Vranyo is a cultural disease whose impact cannot be overstated. I'll leave it to a Russian to explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1pOahq4TCk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1pOahq4TCk

deelly 4y ago

Oversimplification from which point of view? Russians, Ukrainians, or some outside observer?

malwrar 4y ago
I think OP means Russia’s actions are much better understood by their national interest and history, rather than by the individual barbarity of their troops. Russia should not be in Ukraine and should not be firing missiles into population centers, but they are. Their reasons for doing so appear more complicated than mere evil. To be explicit, if you count conflicts from Napoleon on up to WWII, from Russia’s perspective they have fought defense wars on the north european plains once every ~33 years. Their greatest existential threat is a united europe, who frequently meddle in its affairs and approach further by way of NATO expansion despite in some cases explicitly promising otherwise. Ukraine, a previous warsaw pact country, is a prospective NATO member who not only represents a convenient corridor into Russia but also controls a large stretch of coast (Russia wants this) and has massive plains for food production and tank conveyance. Under this interpretation, Russia seeks to resist expansion of a european alliance composed of several former enemies and retain access to key strategic locations outside its borders. Russia’s motives are much more tangible under this perspective, and who knows maybe there’s a solution we’re not seeing from that perspective than one that places outsized emphasis on individual atrocities. It’s a war, after all, and doesn’t appear to be stopping despite the upset faces of spectators.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  You make a reasoned argument why Russia might want to invade Ukraine while ignoring Russia's actual actions. Russia keeps changing it's stated 'reasons', with Russian's themselves saying the silent part you ignore out loud. They say Ukraine is not a real country, Ukrainians are not a separate people from Russians, and that because Ukraine tried to go it's own way it must be folded back into mother Russia and along with Belarus create a new slavic union. Ukrainian is being removed from the schools in Russian conquered land. Ukrainian books are being removed. Russia has human trafficked 2 million people from Ukraine to Russia at this point. None of that is to protect Russia from NATO. Why do you cover Russia's visible actions with a pretty pretense? Russia has said it is fine with Finland joining NATO, greatly expanding NATO on Russia's border. Your argument makes no sense outside the theoretical paragraphs in which you write it.
  - malwrar 4y ago
    > Why do you cover Russia's visible actions with a pretty pretense? Some of Russia’s individual politicians and news outlets no doubt have genuine nationalistic motivations surrounding Ukraine, but it is not clear to me that these are the predominant motives for spending Russian lives and risking Russian security by engaging their forces in an armed conflict. The rhetoric and actions you cite is probably believed and condoned by an increasingly nonzero percentage of the population, but I’m personally not convinced these are much more than pretexts useful to the state in providing political cover to what is ultimately a sovereign chess move (prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, demotivate it and others from future attempts). Russia benefited massively by their previous USSR-era relationship with the surrounding baltic states, and Putin, a former USSR man, has said [1] that the breakup of the warsaw pact was one of Russia’s greatest geopolitical tragedies. I believe his greatest defensive focus is on re-establishing a buffer zone between it and western powers, and likely it’s longer term goals include acquisition of warm water ports and influence over the oil trade. This does, of course, not justify any of Russia’s actions on a moral basis. I expect many Russian officials will be tried and convicted of war crimes. It merely provides a basis by which european leaders/armchair presidents (me) can ground Russia’s actions and plot countermoves. > Russia has said it is fine with Finland joining NATO, greatly expanding NATO on Russia's border. Not even a year ago Russia implied a military consequence if Finland was to join NATO [2]. A few months after this statement was given Russia invaded Ukraine, though this ironically emboldened Finlanders into being majority in favor of joining NATO. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Geography-Coming-Conflicts-Against/dp/0812982223/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=db45cb40-2ed9-4c25-a782-79b583d2da12 https://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Geography-Coming-Conflicts-Ag... (can’t find a source for the exact quote, but cited in chapter 2). [2]: https://www.wionews.com/world/russia-warns-nato-against-inclusion-of-finland-sweden-440093 https://www.wionews.com/world/russia-warns-nato-against-incl...

leaflets2 4y ago

> a way oversimplification Indeed, not all but some of the attackers instead want to kill the men and rape the women in Ukraine -- rather than caring that much about their own tribe. Some double digit percentage of the male population whether you are, starts doing that, if they have the chance. It's reproduction, evolution, been going on for hundreds of thousands of years "Star man"

mcguire 4y ago

I believe they were specifically referring to the behavior of Russian soldiers who were reportedly sending valuable objects from Ukraine back to their relatives as well as executing civilians.