9 ms·

Keet – P2P Video and Text

59 points by irusensei 4y ago

trinsic2 4y ago
With no mission statement or philosophy about data privacy or content filtering it's just appears to me as another for-profit company with no ethical stand point, pass.
- timcash 4y ago
  Check out the dev team and join the community. Great group of people who care about building quality software.
  - trinsic2 4y ago
    I appreciate that suggestion but I found when a development team doesn't adhere to a public statement of trust they can take any direction they'd like without accountability to their actions.
- ttiurani 4y ago
  The bitcoin support is a huge red flag for me. I really hope they scrap that.
  - djschnei 4y ago
    The bitcoin/Lightning support is a huge positive for me. I really hope they keep that.
    - utnap1shtim 4y ago
      Agreed! P2P Comms + P2P Payments completes the digital revolution in publishing! That being said, I hope they open source the platform and the community introduces many payment options - including more traditional CC processing. Venmo, Cashapp, Zelle integrations would be insane!
    - tossl568 4y ago
      Me too. Layer 1 Bitcoin with Layer 2 lightning is really exciting for open payments.
  - trinsic2 4y ago
    That's another huge warning sign for me. Bitcoin looks like another system of control from the financial perspective.
    - tossl568 4y ago
      An open, censorship resistant financial protocol is a system of control? How does that work?
  - tossl568 4y ago
    Why? Bitcoin is great and nobody is forcing anyone to use it.
  - Geee 4y ago
    It's actually really great. In many cases P2P failed, because of lack of ways to transfer value, compared to centralized services. P2P + LN might be the way for P2P renaissance. It's also a better and more correct way to use bitcoin just as money, and not as some kind of ownership token, which plagues the web3 scene. The core purpose of money is to be interoperable, to allow all kinds of goods and services to be traded in a common unit and payment network.
    - jagger27 4y ago
      Not everything needs to be monetized and microtransacted.
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      When I chat to my friends and family the last thing I want to do is "transfer value". My bank app allows me to send money to my friends and family in seconds and to create quick payment requests as well. Perhaps this app is just for blockchain people? If it's another Internet of Coins app then that explains the vague website and the lack of things like privacy policies. I do find it funny that they've added rules about linking to their website to their terms and conditions. As if they have any right to control the way people link to them.
      - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
        > When I chat to my friends and family the last thing I want to do is "transfer value". Congratulations on your family being financially stable!
        jeroenhd 4y ago
        Funny that you would assume that. I use dedicated banking apps to "transfer value" because they're easy to use, secure, developed by a party I trust, and have legal protection from by law. I get it, shittier countries don't have easy (or any) access to good banks. I still maintain that these value transfers should be done through their separate, secured and verified apps, no matter the transaction mechanism. Send money in the form of NFTs if that's what you want, but do so through an app that's built to do so securely, not some random NodeJS chat app. Hell, because of the peer to peer nature of this thing, people's contacts can easily be tracked by the government. Good luck convincing the tax auditor that you didn't in fact send your parents a bunch of money when they have the connection logs to show it, enjoy paying unscrupulous taxes to your oppressive government. I'll take my alternative payment system offline or through a trusted third party server, thank you very much.
  - razemio 4y ago
    I can understand if someone doesn't agree with the values and effects of Bitcoin but how on earth can this be a HUGE red flag?
    - ttiurani 4y ago
      Any mention of bitcoins typically means a full-on commitment to cryptocurrencies. And I don't think I was wrong, because found out only later that this is funded by Tether and Bitfinex. The actual purpose of this project seems to be to pump the value of the owner's cryptocurrencies. So a hard pass from me.
      - razemio 4y ago
        I do not understand your view point. This does not make "Keet" bad software. It is actually a good idea regarding decentralization. So why the red flag? How does this "pump" the value of crypto? A pump always refers to a manipulation of the market. If people use it, and it is the next "killer app" the value of crypto would indeed rise but for valid reasons. Don't get me wrong. I am nutural towards bitfinex. Haven't had to deal with them until now. I would wait how the project develops and then maybe give it a chance.
        ttiurani 4y ago
        > It is actually a good idea regarding decentralization. I absolutely agree: hypercore, their DHT and holepunching work is excellent. My frustration stems from the fact that nothing in the innovative part of Keet needs cryptocurrencies. Now "pump" was the wrong term there. I meant cryptocurrency businesses are trying desperately to find any semi legitimate use cases for their tech becauae if they do, that'll cause the value of the coins they own to go up, and thus making them richer. Without that awkwardly bolted on Bitcoin nonsense in Keet neither of the funding companies would have given them a dime. The red flag is because the good of keet does not negate the bad of promoting cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies are a technological dead end, politically totally against everything I stand for, and morally bankrupt wrt the ecological disaster that is PoW and the pyramid scheme with the already powerful and or wealthy reaping even more for themselves. I'm also not alone here, see e.g. https://concerned.tech https://concerned.tech Furthermore Keet developers' decision to accept that money makes me doubt their judgement, and question where their startup will end up. For those reasons, I won't use nor recommend keet to anyone.
  - tazard 4y ago
    Just don't use Bitcoin then? Red flag for what exactly?
cloudkilla 4y ago
Where's the source?
utnap1shtim 4y ago
AMA with Keet creators, today at 7:30AM (PST): https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1jMKgemarmqJL?s=20 https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1jMKgemarmqJL?s=20
e2le 4y ago
For an application that claims to be "private and encrypted", the lack of available source code doesn't inspire much confidence. Why should I put trust in them?
- mafintosh 4y ago
  coming later this year once we stabilise a bit more :)
- utnap1shtim 4y ago
  [dead]
utnap1shtim 4y ago
Keet is unbelievably user friendly with the best video and audio quality I’ve experienced on any network comms app (looking at you Zoom, Signal, WhatsApp, Google Meet…) maybe only FaceTime can hold something of a candle. What’s blowing my mind about Keet is that the quality is so good AND it’s 100% P2P, E2EE, and allows sharing large files (e.g. videos) in the chat that can be streamed as if they were already on my device. The UX is top tier, the features are beyond elite - who can even compete? I cannot wait for them to open source the platform, the internet of peers is upon us!
utnap1shtim 4y ago
[dead]
djschnei 4y ago
The fact that they didn't shoehorn a token or blockchain into the app's design is amazing and refreshing. Blockchains are a terrible solution for 99.9% of problems. The ONLY reason a vast majority of projects incorporate a token is to enrich the founders. Hats off
- skyfaller 4y ago
  Unfortunately this isn't quite accurate, cryptocurrency support is baked in: > Payments Built In > As your app grows beyond the hobby phase, Holepunch lets you evolve into a business without compromises. > With Bitcoin Lightning and USDt micropayments built-in, it's easy to implement and use powerful paid features in apps. When asked about this, the founder seems supportive of cryptocurrency: https://twitter.com/ttiurani/status/1551524775402635265 https://twitter.com/ttiurani/status/1551524775402635265 Supporting Bitcoin in any way is a sign that they are incapable of detecting scams that will destroy life on earth, which is a bad sign for them dealing with other scams or ethical dilemmas.
  - djschnei 4y ago
    Integration is totally fine, and I think payments are a very valid use-case. But the app doesn't rely on a blockchain or have a token to achieve its core functionality. > Supporting Bitcoin in any way is a sign that they are incapable of detecting scams that will destroy life on earth Well, we couldn't disagree more there. A focus on bitcoin while ignoring other crypto scams shows a great deal of sophistication, understanding of the space, and moral fortitude.
  - tossl568 4y ago
    How is an open, permissionless financial network that uses a fraction of a % of the world's energy a scam that will destroy life on Earth? Uninformed, hyperbolic statements about Bitcoin is a sign you're incapable of basic understanding of anything.
    - djschnei 4y ago
      Completely agree. Energy consumption is what enables human flourishing. Quite frankly, "Energy consumption = bad" is pro-human suffering. The lack of nuance in that argument is tiresome.
thegagne 4y ago
More background info: https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hypercore-launch-holepunch/ https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hyperc... https://www.bitdegree.org/crypto/news/bitfinex-hypercore-tether-roll-out-holepunch-and-keet https://www.bitdegree.org/crypto/news/bitfinex-hypercore-tet... I think the use of P2P like DHT is very smart, but like others I am wary due to the source. As best I can tell: Hypercore = company without a website? I can't find one. Holepunch = platform made by Hypercore - again no website? Funded by Tether and Bitfinex Keet = First app that uses Holepunch Based on the amount of funding that Tether and Bitfinex are putting into this, this does not appear to be a neutral technology. They do have a "killer app" though.
- bordalix 4y ago
  https://holepunch.to/ https://holepunch.to/
- kixiQu 4y ago
  Hypercore: protocol, predates the Tether/Bitfinex stuff, I'd argue neutral. The Beaker Browser work was incredibly cool IMO. Website: https://hypercore-protocol.org/ https://hypercore-protocol.org/ The other stuff: wary. (e.g. https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hypercore-launch-holepunch/ https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hyperc... seems to me to be wrong about Hypercore being a "company")
klabb3 4y ago
On hacker news I'd suggest sharing some technical choices, otherwise you leave people to guess. Anyway: 1. Looks like you're not using libp2p, why? (Not accusing, just wondering) 2. What is your fallback mechanism when hole punching isn't possible? Relay nodes? 3. Follow-up: how do you ensure an acceptable QoS (latency, bandwidth, time to peer-discovery etc) for that fallback mechanism? 4. How do you handle many participants? Amount of chatter scales n^2 by default in p2p. 5. What application bundler are you using (eg electron)? 6. Bonus: what technical challenges were hardest? Any big unsolved problems? Thank you.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> Holepunch is a platform for creating apps that don’t use any servers whatsoever. Ew; punny and/or topical names are fine, but just grabbing a term of art and using it for your product is 1. anti-social behaviour, and 2. not even a good idea selfishly, since you'll have an awful time trademarking it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_punching_%28networking%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_punching_%28networking%29)
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  It makes sense for a peer to peer networking system to advertise its hole punching capabilities in their name. Many people still don't have IPv6 yet so hole punching will remain a necessity for a while. As long as they don't try to enforce any stupid trademarks over a common term like that I don't see the problem.
upupandup 4y ago
In my experience your P2P experience is only as good as the connections the slowest/unreliable peer node. It works well in spurts but wen you start adding more participants the performance degrades and becomes unstable. its not really a solvable problem with just clever networking but something that AI needs to take over in terms of upping and filling in the gaps from the network limitations (resolution upping, deepfake like techniques) i'm still under the impression that SFU And centralized servers is the only way to deliver massive scaling and consistent performance and even this is not perfect.
- balentio 4y ago
  Federated servers would seem to be an eschewed middle ground in your analysis.
deafmice 4y ago
Side note, Jitsi works brilliantly https://meet.jit.si/ https://meet.jit.si/
jeroenhd 4y ago
What's the privacy story like. Does running this expose the IP addresses I use it from to the entire network, and does it associate my username with it? How is multi device support? How does P2P work on systems like iOS and GPlay where notifications need to go through a central communications hub? How does the P2P system respond to slow networks? On the business side: Why did they try to trademark a common networking term ("holepunch")? Why did they add a whole section labeled "Rules about linking to our Site" to the terms of service, are they in the business of shutting down customers who leave bad reviews or write bad negative posts? As for competition, how is this better than slapping a blockchain onto any other messenger?

59 points by irusensei 4y ago

With no mission statement or philosophy about data privacy or content filtering it's just appears to me as another for-profit company with no ethical stand point, pass.

timcash 4y ago
Check out the dev team and join the community. Great group of people who care about building quality software.
- trinsic2 4y ago
  I appreciate that suggestion but I found when a development team doesn't adhere to a public statement of trust they can take any direction they'd like without accountability to their actions.
ttiurani 4y ago
The bitcoin support is a huge red flag for me. I really hope they scrap that.
- djschnei 4y ago
  The bitcoin/Lightning support is a huge positive for me. I really hope they keep that.
  - utnap1shtim 4y ago
    Agreed! P2P Comms + P2P Payments completes the digital revolution in publishing! That being said, I hope they open source the platform and the community introduces many payment options - including more traditional CC processing. Venmo, Cashapp, Zelle integrations would be insane!
  - tossl568 4y ago
    Me too. Layer 1 Bitcoin with Layer 2 lightning is really exciting for open payments.
- trinsic2 4y ago
  That's another huge warning sign for me. Bitcoin looks like another system of control from the financial perspective.
  - tossl568 4y ago
    An open, censorship resistant financial protocol is a system of control? How does that work?
- tossl568 4y ago
  Why? Bitcoin is great and nobody is forcing anyone to use it.
- Geee 4y ago
  It's actually really great. In many cases P2P failed, because of lack of ways to transfer value, compared to centralized services. P2P + LN might be the way for P2P renaissance. It's also a better and more correct way to use bitcoin just as money, and not as some kind of ownership token, which plagues the web3 scene. The core purpose of money is to be interoperable, to allow all kinds of goods and services to be traded in a common unit and payment network.
  - jagger27 4y ago
    Not everything needs to be monetized and microtransacted.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    When I chat to my friends and family the last thing I want to do is "transfer value". My bank app allows me to send money to my friends and family in seconds and to create quick payment requests as well. Perhaps this app is just for blockchain people? If it's another Internet of Coins app then that explains the vague website and the lack of things like privacy policies. I do find it funny that they've added rules about linking to their website to their terms and conditions. As if they have any right to control the way people link to them.
    - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
      > When I chat to my friends and family the last thing I want to do is "transfer value". Congratulations on your family being financially stable!
      - jeroenhd 4y ago
        Funny that you would assume that. I use dedicated banking apps to "transfer value" because they're easy to use, secure, developed by a party I trust, and have legal protection from by law. I get it, shittier countries don't have easy (or any) access to good banks. I still maintain that these value transfers should be done through their separate, secured and verified apps, no matter the transaction mechanism. Send money in the form of NFTs if that's what you want, but do so through an app that's built to do so securely, not some random NodeJS chat app. Hell, because of the peer to peer nature of this thing, people's contacts can easily be tracked by the government. Good luck convincing the tax auditor that you didn't in fact send your parents a bunch of money when they have the connection logs to show it, enjoy paying unscrupulous taxes to your oppressive government. I'll take my alternative payment system offline or through a trusted third party server, thank you very much.
- razemio 4y ago
  I can understand if someone doesn't agree with the values and effects of Bitcoin but how on earth can this be a HUGE red flag?
  - ttiurani 4y ago
    Any mention of bitcoins typically means a full-on commitment to cryptocurrencies. And I don't think I was wrong, because found out only later that this is funded by Tether and Bitfinex. The actual purpose of this project seems to be to pump the value of the owner's cryptocurrencies. So a hard pass from me.
    - razemio 4y ago
      I do not understand your view point. This does not make "Keet" bad software. It is actually a good idea regarding decentralization. So why the red flag? How does this "pump" the value of crypto? A pump always refers to a manipulation of the market. If people use it, and it is the next "killer app" the value of crypto would indeed rise but for valid reasons. Don't get me wrong. I am nutural towards bitfinex. Haven't had to deal with them until now. I would wait how the project develops and then maybe give it a chance.
      - ttiurani 4y ago
        > It is actually a good idea regarding decentralization. I absolutely agree: hypercore, their DHT and holepunching work is excellent. My frustration stems from the fact that nothing in the innovative part of Keet needs cryptocurrencies. Now "pump" was the wrong term there. I meant cryptocurrency businesses are trying desperately to find any semi legitimate use cases for their tech becauae if they do, that'll cause the value of the coins they own to go up, and thus making them richer. Without that awkwardly bolted on Bitcoin nonsense in Keet neither of the funding companies would have given them a dime. The red flag is because the good of keet does not negate the bad of promoting cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies are a technological dead end, politically totally against everything I stand for, and morally bankrupt wrt the ecological disaster that is PoW and the pyramid scheme with the already powerful and or wealthy reaping even more for themselves. I'm also not alone here, see e.g. https://concerned.tech https://concerned.tech Furthermore Keet developers' decision to accept that money makes me doubt their judgement, and question where their startup will end up. For those reasons, I won't use nor recommend keet to anyone.
- tazard 4y ago
  Just don't use Bitcoin then? Red flag for what exactly?

cloudkilla 4y ago

Where's the source?

utnap1shtim 4y ago

AMA with Keet creators, today at 7:30AM (PST): https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1jMKgemarmqJL?s=20 https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1jMKgemarmqJL?s=20

e2le 4y ago

For an application that claims to be "private and encrypted", the lack of available source code doesn't inspire much confidence. Why should I put trust in them?

mafintosh 4y ago
coming later this year once we stabilise a bit more :)
utnap1shtim 4y ago
[dead]

utnap1shtim 4y ago

Keet is unbelievably user friendly with the best video and audio quality I’ve experienced on any network comms app (looking at you Zoom, Signal, WhatsApp, Google Meet…) maybe only FaceTime can hold something of a candle. What’s blowing my mind about Keet is that the quality is so good AND it’s 100% P2P, E2EE, and allows sharing large files (e.g. videos) in the chat that can be streamed as if they were already on my device. The UX is top tier, the features are beyond elite - who can even compete? I cannot wait for them to open source the platform, the internet of peers is upon us!

utnap1shtim 4y ago

[dead]

djschnei 4y ago

The fact that they didn't shoehorn a token or blockchain into the app's design is amazing and refreshing. Blockchains are a terrible solution for 99.9% of problems. The ONLY reason a vast majority of projects incorporate a token is to enrich the founders. Hats off

skyfaller 4y ago
Unfortunately this isn't quite accurate, cryptocurrency support is baked in: > Payments Built In > As your app grows beyond the hobby phase, Holepunch lets you evolve into a business without compromises. > With Bitcoin Lightning and USDt micropayments built-in, it's easy to implement and use powerful paid features in apps. When asked about this, the founder seems supportive of cryptocurrency: https://twitter.com/ttiurani/status/1551524775402635265 https://twitter.com/ttiurani/status/1551524775402635265 Supporting Bitcoin in any way is a sign that they are incapable of detecting scams that will destroy life on earth, which is a bad sign for them dealing with other scams or ethical dilemmas.
- djschnei 4y ago
  Integration is totally fine, and I think payments are a very valid use-case. But the app doesn't rely on a blockchain or have a token to achieve its core functionality. > Supporting Bitcoin in any way is a sign that they are incapable of detecting scams that will destroy life on earth Well, we couldn't disagree more there. A focus on bitcoin while ignoring other crypto scams shows a great deal of sophistication, understanding of the space, and moral fortitude.
- tossl568 4y ago
  How is an open, permissionless financial network that uses a fraction of a % of the world's energy a scam that will destroy life on Earth? Uninformed, hyperbolic statements about Bitcoin is a sign you're incapable of basic understanding of anything.
  - djschnei 4y ago
    Completely agree. Energy consumption is what enables human flourishing. Quite frankly, "Energy consumption = bad" is pro-human suffering. The lack of nuance in that argument is tiresome.

thegagne 4y ago

More background info: https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hypercore-launch-holepunch/ https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hyperc... https://www.bitdegree.org/crypto/news/bitfinex-hypercore-tether-roll-out-holepunch-and-keet https://www.bitdegree.org/crypto/news/bitfinex-hypercore-tet... I think the use of P2P like DHT is very smart, but like others I am wary due to the source. As best I can tell: Hypercore = company without a website? I can't find one. Holepunch = platform made by Hypercore - again no website? Funded by Tether and Bitfinex Keet = First app that uses Holepunch Based on the amount of funding that Tether and Bitfinex are putting into this, this does not appear to be a neutral technology. They do have a "killer app" though.

bordalix 4y ago
https://holepunch.to/ https://holepunch.to/
kixiQu 4y ago
Hypercore: protocol, predates the Tether/Bitfinex stuff, I'd argue neutral. The Beaker Browser work was incredibly cool IMO. Website: https://hypercore-protocol.org/ https://hypercore-protocol.org/ The other stuff: wary. (e.g. https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hypercore-launch-holepunch/ https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2022/07/25/tether-bitfinex-hyperc... seems to me to be wrong about Hypercore being a "company")

klabb3 4y ago

On hacker news I'd suggest sharing some technical choices, otherwise you leave people to guess. Anyway: 1. Looks like you're not using libp2p, why? (Not accusing, just wondering) 2. What is your fallback mechanism when hole punching isn't possible? Relay nodes? 3. Follow-up: how do you ensure an acceptable QoS (latency, bandwidth, time to peer-discovery etc) for that fallback mechanism? 4. How do you handle many participants? Amount of chatter scales n^2 by default in p2p. 5. What application bundler are you using (eg electron)? 6. Bonus: what technical challenges were hardest? Any big unsolved problems? Thank you.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

> Holepunch is a platform for creating apps that don’t use any servers whatsoever. Ew; punny and/or topical names are fine, but just grabbing a term of art and using it for your product is 1. anti-social behaviour, and 2. not even a good idea selfishly, since you'll have an awful time trademarking it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_punching_%28networking%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hole_punching_%28networking%29)

jeroenhd 4y ago
It makes sense for a peer to peer networking system to advertise its hole punching capabilities in their name. Many people still don't have IPv6 yet so hole punching will remain a necessity for a while. As long as they don't try to enforce any stupid trademarks over a common term like that I don't see the problem.

upupandup 4y ago

In my experience your P2P experience is only as good as the connections the slowest/unreliable peer node. It works well in spurts but wen you start adding more participants the performance degrades and becomes unstable. its not really a solvable problem with just clever networking but something that AI needs to take over in terms of upping and filling in the gaps from the network limitations (resolution upping, deepfake like techniques) i'm still under the impression that SFU And centralized servers is the only way to deliver massive scaling and consistent performance and even this is not perfect.

balentio 4y ago
Federated servers would seem to be an eschewed middle ground in your analysis.

deafmice 4y ago

Side note, Jitsi works brilliantly https://meet.jit.si/ https://meet.jit.si/

jeroenhd 4y ago

What's the privacy story like. Does running this expose the IP addresses I use it from to the entire network, and does it associate my username with it? How is multi device support? How does P2P work on systems like iOS and GPlay where notifications need to go through a central communications hub? How does the P2P system respond to slow networks? On the business side: Why did they try to trademark a common networking term ("holepunch")? Why did they add a whole section labeled "Rules about linking to our Site" to the terms of service, are they in the business of shutting down customers who leave bad reviews or write bad negative posts? As for competition, how is this better than slapping a blockchain onto any other messenger?