4 ms·

If one hold grudges war will never end, whether it’s grudges from ww2 or centuries of foreign oppression of the Irish or a thousand other past conflicts in Euro

by mint2 4y ago

If one hold grudges war will never end, whether it’s grudges from ww2 or centuries of foreign oppression of the Irish or a thousand other past conflicts in Europe. Yes, In one light having terrorist organizations go unpunished is bad but if it’s the price of peace that’s so far held then it seems like missing the forest for the trees to focus on the ira and not the end of violence.

fithisux 4y ago
Revenge or payback makes grudge go away. What happens is that the "other" side will restart the vicious circle.
- mint2 4y ago
  The word is not “Restart” it’s “continue” or “perpetuate”. the “other side restarting it” doesn’t make sense because from the perspective of the other side it was already restarted.
HeckFeck 4y ago
The problem is when one side constantly votes in a party controlled by the terrorist group. Sinn Fein is the Provisional IRA, and proud of it. And this same party heaps endless praise on those who ordered and orchestrated sectarian murder of the other side. There are alternative nationalist parties with no such bad blood, but they are never first choice from the other community, it seems. It is regretful but the message is understood.
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  > The problem is when one side constantly votes in a party controlled by the terrorist group. Sinn Fein is the Provisional IRA, and proud of it. That's not an issue unique to one side of the conflict though. The DUP are hardly moderates, and were always suspected to have links to the UVF. One of the saddest parts about the post Good Friday/Belfast settlement was how it ended up with the more extreme parts of each community splitting power between them.
  - HeckFeck 4y ago
    The DUP had some informal ties by way of some members appearing on stage alongside loyalist paramilitaries in the past, but it was never the political party of any paramilitary group of note. The unionist party run by the UVF is the PUP and it is barely a rounding error in the polls. Sinn Fein has many members of senior IRA rank and calls itself "the political wing of the PIRA". The two are not identical.
    - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
      > Sinn Fein has many members of senior IRA rank and calls itself "the political wing of the PIRA". Name one. I don't disagree that this definitely used to be the case (Martin McGuiness as the classic example), but I can't imagine Mary Lou McDonald as a member of the PIRA. Like, I'm kinda disgusted with myself to be defending Sinn Fein, but one could argue that the necessity of political/violence co-operation was larger for the nationalists, given where they started. It was certainly the perception that the organs of the state were not religion-blind. How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance?
      - HeckFeck 4y ago
        Gerry Kelly. Martina Anderson. Gerry Adams (obvs). Bobby Storey. Conor Murphy. Barry McElduff. Michelle O'Neill had no personal involvement, but her father was in the Provisional IRA. It's not uncommon for republican families to split duties in that way. But even if I couldn't name any, it is very clear that the two organisations are deeply and inextricably linked. > How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance? I get what you're saying. We should note that some of the low numbers was down to anti-policing attitudes in their own community. Indeed there are still areas run by republican paramilitary factions today where you don't call the police, or you'll have two problems. I would need to consider the pre-1973 history in better depth, but I would agree that I wish there was better accommodation with the nationalist community in the predominantly unionist state, if it would've helped avoid what happened. But consider that the unionist attitudes were driven by fear of the other side too, this would've affected their decisions. The Northern state was intended as a compromise for Unionists, who looked South and saw their population in the ROI drop from 15% to around 1%. Even with that said, I can never sympathise with people who bombed, intimidated and targeted civilians in the way that the various IRAs did. There is no cause for pride or celebration here, even if one accepts it as necessary. I don't see mournful regret when I see Sinn Fein members reflect on the names of those tied to that aspect of the past. The level of violence and its many knock on effects took a tremendous toll on the unionist population, and we cannot forget who was responsible.
- biorach 4y ago
  > a party controlled by the terrorist group I really don't think this is true. It's widely believed that some former high ranking IRA members still are involved in the party leadership, but nowhere near the extent that they could be said to "control" the party > Sinn Fein is the Provisional IRA, The ceasefire was 25 years ago, there is a whole generation of SF members who have never been in the IRA, so no, they are not the same organisation > and proud of it Yeah, there's pride at having held off the British Army for decades, but also a lot of very mixed feelings
  - HeckFeck 4y ago
    https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-ira-army-council-relationship-with-sinn-fein-remains-unchanged-says-chief-constable-simon-byrne-3187440 https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-i... There is good evidence to indicate that the IRA Army Council is still heavily involved in running Sinn Fein. And it is no wonder, because the links between the two organisations are pretty tight and always have been. The party still calls itself "the political wing of the Provisional IRA". In response to an audience member shouting "Up the 'RA", Gerry Adams famously replied with glee "They haven't gone away you know". Sinn Fein to this day praises and commemorates former IRA murderers. Michelle O'Neill comes from a family of proud IRA members. I could go on. Endorsing the organisation now is endorsing its history and aims, which haven't diverged despite the young faces and heavy layers of PR gloss. > pride at having held off the British Army And a lot of civilians who guarded prisons, happened to be going to work, were 'suspected' touts, were buying fish and chips, or were watching military parades to commemorate real sacrifice like that made in WWII. Real reconciliation would be possible with moderate nationalists, not people who call Unionists "bastards" in private, or say "equality is a trojan horse for Nationalism".
    - biorach 4y ago
      Still, there are not good grounds to say that SF and the IRA are the same thing. All the evidence points to the aims having changed - the aim of violent overthrow of British rule seems to have been abandoned, as evidence by the last 25 years. But look... If you think no reconciliation is possible then there's no real point in saying any of this to you

by mint2 4y ago

fithisux 4y ago

Revenge or payback makes grudge go away. What happens is that the "other" side will restart the vicious circle.

mint2 4y ago
The word is not “Restart” it’s “continue” or “perpetuate”. the “other side restarting it” doesn’t make sense because from the perspective of the other side it was already restarted.

HeckFeck 4y ago

The problem is when one side constantly votes in a party controlled by the terrorist group. Sinn Fein is the Provisional IRA, and proud of it. And this same party heaps endless praise on those who ordered and orchestrated sectarian murder of the other side. There are alternative nationalist parties with no such bad blood, but they are never first choice from the other community, it seems. It is regretful but the message is understood.

disgruntledphd2 4y ago
> The problem is when one side constantly votes in a party controlled by the terrorist group. Sinn Fein is the Provisional IRA, and proud of it. That's not an issue unique to one side of the conflict though. The DUP are hardly moderates, and were always suspected to have links to the UVF. One of the saddest parts about the post Good Friday/Belfast settlement was how it ended up with the more extreme parts of each community splitting power between them.
- HeckFeck 4y ago
  The DUP had some informal ties by way of some members appearing on stage alongside loyalist paramilitaries in the past, but it was never the political party of any paramilitary group of note. The unionist party run by the UVF is the PUP and it is barely a rounding error in the polls. Sinn Fein has many members of senior IRA rank and calls itself "the political wing of the PIRA". The two are not identical.
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    > Sinn Fein has many members of senior IRA rank and calls itself "the political wing of the PIRA". Name one. I don't disagree that this definitely used to be the case (Martin McGuiness as the classic example), but I can't imagine Mary Lou McDonald as a member of the PIRA. Like, I'm kinda disgusted with myself to be defending Sinn Fein, but one could argue that the necessity of political/violence co-operation was larger for the nationalists, given where they started. It was certainly the perception that the organs of the state were not religion-blind. How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance?
    - HeckFeck 4y ago
      Gerry Kelly. Martina Anderson. Gerry Adams (obvs). Bobby Storey. Conor Murphy. Barry McElduff. Michelle O'Neill had no personal involvement, but her father was in the Provisional IRA. It's not uncommon for republican families to split duties in that way. But even if I couldn't name any, it is very clear that the two organisations are deeply and inextricably linked. > How many Catholics were in the RUC, for instance? I get what you're saying. We should note that some of the low numbers was down to anti-policing attitudes in their own community. Indeed there are still areas run by republican paramilitary factions today where you don't call the police, or you'll have two problems. I would need to consider the pre-1973 history in better depth, but I would agree that I wish there was better accommodation with the nationalist community in the predominantly unionist state, if it would've helped avoid what happened. But consider that the unionist attitudes were driven by fear of the other side too, this would've affected their decisions. The Northern state was intended as a compromise for Unionists, who looked South and saw their population in the ROI drop from 15% to around 1%. Even with that said, I can never sympathise with people who bombed, intimidated and targeted civilians in the way that the various IRAs did. There is no cause for pride or celebration here, even if one accepts it as necessary. I don't see mournful regret when I see Sinn Fein members reflect on the names of those tied to that aspect of the past. The level of violence and its many knock on effects took a tremendous toll on the unionist population, and we cannot forget who was responsible.
biorach 4y ago
> a party controlled by the terrorist group I really don't think this is true. It's widely believed that some former high ranking IRA members still are involved in the party leadership, but nowhere near the extent that they could be said to "control" the party > Sinn Fein is the Provisional IRA, The ceasefire was 25 years ago, there is a whole generation of SF members who have never been in the IRA, so no, they are not the same organisation > and proud of it Yeah, there's pride at having held off the British Army for decades, but also a lot of very mixed feelings
- HeckFeck 4y ago
  https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-ira-army-council-relationship-with-sinn-fein-remains-unchanged-says-chief-constable-simon-byrne-3187440 https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-i... There is good evidence to indicate that the IRA Army Council is still heavily involved in running Sinn Fein. And it is no wonder, because the links between the two organisations are pretty tight and always have been. The party still calls itself "the political wing of the Provisional IRA". In response to an audience member shouting "Up the 'RA", Gerry Adams famously replied with glee "They haven't gone away you know". Sinn Fein to this day praises and commemorates former IRA murderers. Michelle O'Neill comes from a family of proud IRA members. I could go on. Endorsing the organisation now is endorsing its history and aims, which haven't diverged despite the young faces and heavy layers of PR gloss. > pride at having held off the British Army And a lot of civilians who guarded prisons, happened to be going to work, were 'suspected' touts, were buying fish and chips, or were watching military parades to commemorate real sacrifice like that made in WWII. Real reconciliation would be possible with moderate nationalists, not people who call Unionists "bastards" in private, or say "equality is a trojan horse for Nationalism".
  - biorach 4y ago
    Still, there are not good grounds to say that SF and the IRA are the same thing. All the evidence points to the aims having changed - the aim of violent overthrow of British rule seems to have been abandoned, as evidence by the last 25 years. But look... If you think no reconciliation is possible then there's no real point in saying any of this to you