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> This scared the living shit out of governors and politicians who realised such a radical agenda might create young adults able to think and politically organi

> This scared the living shit out of governors and politicians who realised such a radical agenda might create young adults able to think and politically organise. Can you provide any examples of this? I'm skeptical of this claim given that Gatto was a prominent Libertarian, which don't really believe in political organization. The Libertarian movement is inherently individualistic. Not to mention his work with a Christian documentary about children failing to learn about family and God in public school[0]. Not to cast stones here, but organized religion isn't big on teaching critical thinking either. I can't find any quotes or responses from a governor or politician that supports your characterization of his work. 0: http://www.indoctrinationmovie.com/ http://www.indoctrinationmovie.com/

eru 4y ago
> Not to cast stones here, but organized religion isn't big on teaching critical thinking either. Some kinds of critical thinking are totally encouraged in eg some forms of Judaism and Christian Protestantism. (I don't know enough about other religions to comment.)
smeej 4y ago
The list of scientists, authors, and innovators who were not only Catholics, but Catholic priests is enormous. Maybe you've met some dopey religious folks, but don't paint with too broad a brush.
- thr0wawayf00 4y ago
  Yep, and a lot of them lived back when being accused of heresy by the church was literally a death sentence. So again, not exactly an environment that fostered critical thinking, certainly one that punished speaking out against the church in any sort of way. Galileo, for example, was condemned on his death bed by the pope and buried in an unceremoniously small room next to the novice's chapel for almost 100 years before he was reburied in the main basilica[0] . 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death
  - duchenne 4y ago
    Galileo was sentenced to house arrest, for disobeying a direct order from the pope to tell geocentrism and heliocentrism were both possible. This was actually the best scientific conclusion at that time until Foucault proved that the Earth was rotating two centuries later. Actually, the worst enemies of Galileo were the Aristotelians which teachings were not based on religion. They used the inquisition to stop Galileo. source: same wikipedia article.
  - erulabs 4y ago
    Thomas Aquinas (just to name one) was a scholar of the highest order and was absolutely not just pretending to be a Christian. It’s a strange worldview to imagine that Christianity provided no academic contributions to the world. To some extent, it invented academics. This is more or less z I am not a Christian and was for a long time a fairly militant atheist - but this point is historical fact.
    - Teever 4y ago
      I don't think that this fact some how dismisses the likelihood that many people throughout history merely pretended to be Christian simply to avoid being burned at the stake. That's what organized religions did/do to non-believers. They burned them at the stake. Or stoned them to death, Or drowned them, or exiled them. If your goal is to make contributions to society, in that context you're damn well going to say whatever you need to say about your personal beliefs to ensure that kind of shit doesn't happen to you. Hell, even if you don't care about making contributions to society you're still gonna say what ever needs to be said to ensure you don't end up burned at the stake. The end result of all these theistic threats is that a lot of people who made great contributions to society did so under the auspices of religious organizations not because they genuinely believed in the tenants of those organizations, but because they had to. And those organizations made those threats, and continue to make those threats because they know that this is the outcome -- that people will do things in their name to avoid the shit that the religion can do to them. It's a racket, much akin to the mob coming up to a shop keep and telling them that it would be a shame if something were to happen to their business if it didn't have some kind of 'protection' that the mob can offer them. It's no coincidence that the Catholic church and the mob originate from the same part of the world.
WalterBright 4y ago
> The Libertarian movement is inherently individualistic. Where do people get these ideas? Libertarianism is all about freedom, including the freedom to cooperate with others. For example, a baseball team is all about voluntary cooperation for a common goal. Nobody is forced to play. Baseball has nothing whatsoever inconsistent with Libertarianism. What Libertarianism lacks is forcing people to conform and cooperate.
- LambdaComplex 4y ago
  What you describe may very well be a valid definition of "Libertarianism," but Libertarianism's modern form (at least in the United States) seems to fundamentally rely on the belief that individuals are on equal footing with megacorporations and that therefore removing restrictions on said megacorporations will result in them acting in ways that are better for society rather than worse. But, given things such as the historical existence of company stores/scrip and the things mentioned in Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, I find such beliefs to be overly optimistic: we already have historical proof that companies will fail to pay workers with real money and will sell unsafe food to the public unless forced to do otherwise by government intervention. Companies have less "freedom" now than they did 100 years ago, and we are better off for it.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Yes, unfortunately "Libertarian" in the US is a synonym for anarcho-capitalist. Those people would have a stroke if they knew what Libertarian used to mean in the 19th century... ;)
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    "The Jungle" is a work of fiction written by socialist Upton Sinclair who was pushing his platform. It is evidence of nothing whatsoever, much like the Star Trek Federation utopia. As for failing to pay workers, or selling unsafe food, that is against Libertarian principles because Libertarianism requires government to enforce contracts, and does not allow hurting one's customers.
d1l 4y ago
Catholic scientists, quite a list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_clergy_scientists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_clergy_scie...

eru 4y ago

> Not to cast stones here, but organized religion isn't big on teaching critical thinking either. Some kinds of critical thinking are totally encouraged in eg some forms of Judaism and Christian Protestantism. (I don't know enough about other religions to comment.)

smeej 4y ago

The list of scientists, authors, and innovators who were not only Catholics, but Catholic priests is enormous. Maybe you've met some dopey religious folks, but don't paint with too broad a brush.

thr0wawayf00 4y ago
Yep, and a lot of them lived back when being accused of heresy by the church was literally a death sentence. So again, not exactly an environment that fostered critical thinking, certainly one that punished speaking out against the church in any sort of way. Galileo, for example, was condemned on his death bed by the pope and buried in an unceremoniously small room next to the novice's chapel for almost 100 years before he was reburied in the main basilica[0] . 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Death
- duchenne 4y ago
  Galileo was sentenced to house arrest, for disobeying a direct order from the pope to tell geocentrism and heliocentrism were both possible. This was actually the best scientific conclusion at that time until Foucault proved that the Earth was rotating two centuries later. Actually, the worst enemies of Galileo were the Aristotelians which teachings were not based on religion. They used the inquisition to stop Galileo. source: same wikipedia article.
- erulabs 4y ago
  Thomas Aquinas (just to name one) was a scholar of the highest order and was absolutely not just pretending to be a Christian. It’s a strange worldview to imagine that Christianity provided no academic contributions to the world. To some extent, it invented academics. This is more or less z I am not a Christian and was for a long time a fairly militant atheist - but this point is historical fact.
  - Teever 4y ago
    I don't think that this fact some how dismisses the likelihood that many people throughout history merely pretended to be Christian simply to avoid being burned at the stake. That's what organized religions did/do to non-believers. They burned them at the stake. Or stoned them to death, Or drowned them, or exiled them. If your goal is to make contributions to society, in that context you're damn well going to say whatever you need to say about your personal beliefs to ensure that kind of shit doesn't happen to you. Hell, even if you don't care about making contributions to society you're still gonna say what ever needs to be said to ensure you don't end up burned at the stake. The end result of all these theistic threats is that a lot of people who made great contributions to society did so under the auspices of religious organizations not because they genuinely believed in the tenants of those organizations, but because they had to. And those organizations made those threats, and continue to make those threats because they know that this is the outcome -- that people will do things in their name to avoid the shit that the religion can do to them. It's a racket, much akin to the mob coming up to a shop keep and telling them that it would be a shame if something were to happen to their business if it didn't have some kind of 'protection' that the mob can offer them. It's no coincidence that the Catholic church and the mob originate from the same part of the world.

WalterBright 4y ago

> The Libertarian movement is inherently individualistic. Where do people get these ideas? Libertarianism is all about freedom, including the freedom to cooperate with others. For example, a baseball team is all about voluntary cooperation for a common goal. Nobody is forced to play. Baseball has nothing whatsoever inconsistent with Libertarianism. What Libertarianism lacks is forcing people to conform and cooperate.

LambdaComplex 4y ago
What you describe may very well be a valid definition of "Libertarianism," but Libertarianism's modern form (at least in the United States) seems to fundamentally rely on the belief that individuals are on equal footing with megacorporations and that therefore removing restrictions on said megacorporations will result in them acting in ways that are better for society rather than worse. But, given things such as the historical existence of company stores/scrip and the things mentioned in Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, I find such beliefs to be overly optimistic: we already have historical proof that companies will fail to pay workers with real money and will sell unsafe food to the public unless forced to do otherwise by government intervention. Companies have less "freedom" now than they did 100 years ago, and we are better off for it.
- andrepd 4y ago
  Yes, unfortunately "Libertarian" in the US is a synonym for anarcho-capitalist. Those people would have a stroke if they knew what Libertarian used to mean in the 19th century... ;)
- WalterBright 4y ago
  "The Jungle" is a work of fiction written by socialist Upton Sinclair who was pushing his platform. It is evidence of nothing whatsoever, much like the Star Trek Federation utopia. As for failing to pay workers, or selling unsafe food, that is against Libertarian principles because Libertarianism requires government to enforce contracts, and does not allow hurting one's customers.

d1l 4y ago

Catholic scientists, quite a list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_clergy_scientists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_clergy_scie...