5 ms·

is there such thing as peak "unliveability". where a place becomes a hellish nightmare for all but the 1%. or does the gap get wider forever and we are heading

is there such thing as peak "unliveability". where a place becomes a hellish nightmare for all but the 1%. or does the gap get wider forever and we are heading toward some kind of real dystopia. i mean what eventually happens to over-saturated markets, be it housing, jobs or whatever else. when demand vs supply reaches peak disequilibrium (cant think of a better word..)

Enginerrrd 4y ago
This is an interesting question, one I've pondered for a while. This is speculation, but here's what I believe: Let's assume wealth follows a Pareto distribution, with the single parameter alpha determining the shape of that curve, and thus the resulting income inequality. I think that growth of real economic output / GDP probably has a maximum for some alpha, above which, increased inequality slows down growth. I suspect it also declines BELOW a certain alpha since it offers fewer people with extreme capital to the market capable of making moonshots. However, that doesn't mean growth stops, and I suspect the people high on the curve have little incentive to change. I'm not sure though. Is it better to have ownership of X percent of wealth, and greater relative wealth, or X-e percent of wealth, less relative wealth but more growth? Now... ostensibly, I don't think there's likely to be a 'peak'. It would defy the assumptions of a market. If housing prices rise so high there aren't enough buyers, prices would fall. However... famously, certain billionaires have been known to buy up all the houses around theirs at exorbitant prices to enhance privacy. So I suppose you could still see vacant housing, but no fall in prices. That said, in general, quality of life would decline for lots of people. We'd see a lot more roommates and extended family groups living together to make it affordable. People in US cities used to do that a lot actually, and we might see a return to that. There has historically been a floor though, where below that, things are so bad that people don't have much to lose by taking up arms, dragging rich people into the street and cutting their heads off. Another angle in modern times is that we are seeing such a precipitous drop in birth rates in the West, that I suspect we'll start to see countries compete for people interested in having children by creating financial incentives and friendlier conditions to do so.
- lumost 4y ago
  I suspect that beyond a certain point on the wealth curve your wealth or growth of that wealth stops mattering to you. I’m sure their are those who continue working at it as it makes them feel valued- but it’s difficult to spend more than a few million dollars a year without being frivolous to the point of stupidity. Which means you’ll have a lot of unmotivated money, or money that’s only interested in preserving a relative position on the economic latter - far from the meritocratic capitalist dream.
ushakov 4y ago
i’d say Bali (Indonesia) is a good example of “a hellish nightmare for all but the 1%”
- tellmelies 4y ago
  Yes, but you too can be a part of that 1% if only for a few weeks.
_9xrb 4y ago
Key West, Florida is what peak unliveability looks like: https://www.keywestislandnews.com/2022/02/can-real-people-live-in-key-west/ https://www.keywestislandnews.com/2022/02/can-real-people-li... Comment from "SixGenFam:" >As a conch family, with generations buried in the local graveyard and my whole life here, we have to leave kw. There’s no potential for security anymore. The only other average conchs my age I know who are planning to stay have housing assistance. They can only stay because of govt assistance that I’ll never qualify for. And the number of homes available to people with housing assistance is very limited. The only others I know that can stay are inheritors. Kids who’s parents owned nice homes or businesses on Duval etc and they were blessed with the hand me downs. >Thing is we have way too many tourists on average here now and nobody will be here to serve them. And beyond the frivolous ways of serving them, (drinks, food and clean rooms) what of the safety and community? Nurses, teachers, cops.. None of them qualify for the affordable housing income restrictions. They never fit the bracket, but they barely make enough to pay market rents. Without a properly staffed hospital, how is it safe to host thousands of tourists? We always say “well now who’s going to clean your rooms??” as if only housecleaning are being run out of town. But no, it’s the entire foundation of what makes a city run, and it’s crumbling, rapidly.
- MattGaiser 4y ago
  > nobody will be here to serve them Has this ever happened? I have heard this prediction about everything from Toronto to New York to Los Angeles to Hong Kong for years and it has never seemed to come true. There are people willing to make extreme sacrifices to live in certain places. People will live 5 to a room in cockroach infested 100 year old apartments to stay in certain places. In Toronto, labour is no more expensive to purchase than the rest of Canada (minimum wage laws aside). Toronto is worth it to enough people to have a bunk in a bunk bed over a room to oneself while working in fast food. People can also commute. Vancouver is notorious for having teachers commute from Abbotsford. In Toronto, people will commute 2.5 hours each way from Barrie or London. A lot just may be that the older people get replaced with less resource intensive young people who don't have kids, need less medical care, and are happier in less space.
  - 4y ago
ben_w 4y ago
The worst it can get is people starving to death, which has happened several times even since the agricultural revolution thanks to political decisions. I don’t really expect the situation to get that bad in this case, however.
timst4 4y ago
Speaking of disequilibrium, this is almost the same question that is plaguing the American Southwest regarding water. Is there a point that Las Vegas becomes unlivable? Is it when the lake runs dry? Is it when water has to be pipelined from desalination plants? Is it when water costs more than oil? In my opinion there is a fail point here; however, many in the 1% do not believe it’s will happen. The perpetual growth train is still on the tracks and steaming away.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  > Is it when water has to be pipelined from desalination plants? You say that like it's impossible, or even cost prohibitive. Maybe for farming, but Las Vegas isn't known for farming.

Enginerrrd 4y ago

This is an interesting question, one I've pondered for a while. This is speculation, but here's what I believe: Let's assume wealth follows a Pareto distribution, with the single parameter alpha determining the shape of that curve, and thus the resulting income inequality. I think that growth of real economic output / GDP probably has a maximum for some alpha, above which, increased inequality slows down growth. I suspect it also declines BELOW a certain alpha since it offers fewer people with extreme capital to the market capable of making moonshots. However, that doesn't mean growth stops, and I suspect the people high on the curve have little incentive to change. I'm not sure though. Is it better to have ownership of X percent of wealth, and greater relative wealth, or X-e percent of wealth, less relative wealth but more growth? Now... ostensibly, I don't think there's likely to be a 'peak'. It would defy the assumptions of a market. If housing prices rise so high there aren't enough buyers, prices would fall. However... famously, certain billionaires have been known to buy up all the houses around theirs at exorbitant prices to enhance privacy. So I suppose you could still see vacant housing, but no fall in prices. That said, in general, quality of life would decline for lots of people. We'd see a lot more roommates and extended family groups living together to make it affordable. People in US cities used to do that a lot actually, and we might see a return to that. There has historically been a floor though, where below that, things are so bad that people don't have much to lose by taking up arms, dragging rich people into the street and cutting their heads off. Another angle in modern times is that we are seeing such a precipitous drop in birth rates in the West, that I suspect we'll start to see countries compete for people interested in having children by creating financial incentives and friendlier conditions to do so.

lumost 4y ago
I suspect that beyond a certain point on the wealth curve your wealth or growth of that wealth stops mattering to you. I’m sure their are those who continue working at it as it makes them feel valued- but it’s difficult to spend more than a few million dollars a year without being frivolous to the point of stupidity. Which means you’ll have a lot of unmotivated money, or money that’s only interested in preserving a relative position on the economic latter - far from the meritocratic capitalist dream.

ushakov 4y ago

i’d say Bali (Indonesia) is a good example of “a hellish nightmare for all but the 1%”

tellmelies 4y ago
Yes, but you too can be a part of that 1% if only for a few weeks.

_9xrb 4y ago

Key West, Florida is what peak unliveability looks like: https://www.keywestislandnews.com/2022/02/can-real-people-live-in-key-west/ https://www.keywestislandnews.com/2022/02/can-real-people-li... Comment from "SixGenFam:" >As a conch family, with generations buried in the local graveyard and my whole life here, we have to leave kw. There’s no potential for security anymore. The only other average conchs my age I know who are planning to stay have housing assistance. They can only stay because of govt assistance that I’ll never qualify for. And the number of homes available to people with housing assistance is very limited. The only others I know that can stay are inheritors. Kids who’s parents owned nice homes or businesses on Duval etc and they were blessed with the hand me downs. >Thing is we have way too many tourists on average here now and nobody will be here to serve them. And beyond the frivolous ways of serving them, (drinks, food and clean rooms) what of the safety and community? Nurses, teachers, cops.. None of them qualify for the affordable housing income restrictions. They never fit the bracket, but they barely make enough to pay market rents. Without a properly staffed hospital, how is it safe to host thousands of tourists? We always say “well now who’s going to clean your rooms??” as if only housecleaning are being run out of town. But no, it’s the entire foundation of what makes a city run, and it’s crumbling, rapidly.

MattGaiser 4y ago
> nobody will be here to serve them Has this ever happened? I have heard this prediction about everything from Toronto to New York to Los Angeles to Hong Kong for years and it has never seemed to come true. There are people willing to make extreme sacrifices to live in certain places. People will live 5 to a room in cockroach infested 100 year old apartments to stay in certain places. In Toronto, labour is no more expensive to purchase than the rest of Canada (minimum wage laws aside). Toronto is worth it to enough people to have a bunk in a bunk bed over a room to oneself while working in fast food. People can also commute. Vancouver is notorious for having teachers commute from Abbotsford. In Toronto, people will commute 2.5 hours each way from Barrie or London. A lot just may be that the older people get replaced with less resource intensive young people who don't have kids, need less medical care, and are happier in less space.
- 4y ago

ben_w 4y ago

The worst it can get is people starving to death, which has happened several times even since the agricultural revolution thanks to political decisions. I don’t really expect the situation to get that bad in this case, however.

timst4 4y ago

Speaking of disequilibrium, this is almost the same question that is plaguing the American Southwest regarding water. Is there a point that Las Vegas becomes unlivable? Is it when the lake runs dry? Is it when water has to be pipelined from desalination plants? Is it when water costs more than oil? In my opinion there is a fail point here; however, many in the 1% do not believe it’s will happen. The perpetual growth train is still on the tracks and steaming away.

jjoonathan 4y ago
> Is it when water has to be pipelined from desalination plants? You say that like it's impossible, or even cost prohibitive. Maybe for farming, but Las Vegas isn't known for farming.