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The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

98 points by acangiano 15y ago

dlikhten 15y ago
I like the arguments. I had to fight my family as well when making any ventures. Will they be fruitful? who knows. However my family was always saying "why risk failure, when you can have a nice 9-5 job that always pays well and is fairly stable?" or "why risk working your ass off for a year and "show nothing for it"" where to me working my ass off for a year is a year of education i'd have never received otherwise. And my family is fairly progressive. We are immigrants from Ukraine (circa '92)
- fennecfoxen 15y ago
  Why not? No kids yet. Limited downside. At most you've wasted some time and a small amount of cash, and you can always fall back on the steady job.
oscardelben 15y ago
I agree about the mentality problem, though I think it's mostly due ignorance in general and values that are often toward the wrong thing. Regarding taxes, it's pretty ridiculous, I would never encourage people to open a business here if they can avoid it. I'm moving to the US next year and I can't wait to stop paying the ridiculous amount of money (in proportion of what I earn) that I pay now as a consultant. I think I can add another reason why doing startups is hard in Italy: finding a cofounder or team members. I've worked in one of the biggest startup incubator in Italy (h-farm), and I can say from experience that it's super hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the day.
- davidw 15y ago
  > it's super hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the day. It's difficult pretty much anywhere. And even in areas where there are lots of good people (SV), you then have to pay a lot. There are plenty of talented people in Italy, that is not what I would consider the major problem.
  - oscardelben 15y ago
    You have a point here, but due to the distribution of our (small) cities, we don't have many meetups here, for example. I love Italy's, just not for working.
    - davidw 15y ago
      Other European countries have similar urbanization levels/curves. And the most 'concentrated' country, the one with most of its people in cities, is, surprisingly, Australia. And they don't seem to have a ton of startups either...
  - Luc 15y ago
    Italy has an education problem though. Only 1 in 10 have a higher education diploma. Among the 30-34 year olds, it's 20%, but this is still less than half what most northern European countries have (Ireland is top with 50%). [Source: IMF & Eurostat via my newspaper today.]
    - toyg 15y ago
      Italian university is... complicated. There are areas of excellence -- medicine, architecture, even engineering (!) -- but a lot of undergraduate courses are expected to run for more than 5 years, and that's a very long time for non-STEM stuff. The average length is much lower in other countries, and the format much more flexible. And I say this as a serial drop-out who now lives abroad.
- Symmetry 15y ago
  Regarding taxes, I was surprised to read today that corportations in Italy, if they actually complied with every law, would be paying a 68.6% tax rate. Still not as bad as a few countries in Africa where the offical tax rates are well over 100%, though. http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/italy-fact-of-the-day-4.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/ita...
  - oscardelben 15y ago
    What's worse is that I never know exactly how much I'm going to pay (this is what my accountant tells me anyway).
  - toyg 15y ago
    That's part of the reason why they actually don't pay any of it. Tax evasion is widespread and in the open; the government periodically reacts with amnesties, which is the catholic thing to do, right? All is forgiven, let's try again! But what are you going to do, knowing there is going to be an amnesty sooner or later? You just don't pay, of course. So the State is not getting enough money, and they have to create a new tax to cover the shortfall, which will increase the official rate but that's ok, because almost nobody is paying it anyway, not even your main politician for 17 years, and he's fucking rich. This makes the real tax rate between 5 and 20%, depending on the specific amnesty you're going to enjoy, how much you feel like paying, and how good is your accountant.
- metachris 15y ago
  I live in Austria and have to pay about 40 to 50% tax on any income. At least I know it's going towards things such as free universities, free healthcare, unemployment insurances for everyone. Makes the pill a bit easier to swallow.
  - juliano_q 15y ago
    Looks like very good compared to Brazil, where we pay around 40% and still have to pay for private healthcare and education because the public services are terrible.
    - metachris 15y ago
      It must suck to live in Italy and pay a lot of taxes, knowing it's going straight into the pockets of corrupt and populist politicians while social services are cut and the whole economy starts spiraling downwards.
- ebiester 15y ago
  I'm curious how many businesses have developed devoted to getting people through the bureaucracy.
iqster 15y ago
I just saw the image of Italy on the backside of an Arduino on desk, and was thinking about how innovative the Italians are. Then I saw this on HN :)
- oscardelben 15y ago
  Actually Italians have been huge innovators in history and still are in some areas, it's just the system that makes it harder now.
- waterside81 15y ago
  Italians have provided some of the world's greatest innovations in civil and mechanical engineering and continue to do so. Perhaps their creative energy has not yet been channeled towards the space of web apps and mobile apps, which the HN audience is biased towards.
vladd 15y ago
National Geographic made an editorial describing how teen brains are more prone to risky behavior: >> Peaking during adolescence is risk-taking. We court risk more avidly as teens than at any other time. This shows reliably in the lab, where teens take more chances in controlled experiments involving everything from card games to simulated driving. And it shows in real life, where the period from roughly 15 to 25 brings peaks in all sorts of risky ventures and ugly outcomes. If teens think as well as adults do and recognize risk just as well, why do they take more chances? Here, as elsewhere, the problem lies less in what teens lack compared with adults than in what they have more of. Teens take more risks not because they don't understand the dangers but because they weigh risk versus reward differently: In situations where risk can get them something they want, they value the reward more heavily than adults do. The period's uniqueness rises from genes and developmental processes that have been selected for over thousands of generations because they play an amplified role during this key transitional period: producing a creature optimally primed to leave a safe home and move into unfamiliar territory. The move outward from home is the most difficult thing that humans do, as well as the most critical—not just for individuals but for a species that has shown an unmatched ability to master challenging new environments. In scientific terms, teenagers can be a pain in the ass. But they are quite possibly the most fully, crucially adaptive human beings around. Without them, humanity might not have so readily spread across the globe. << Full version at http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/teenage-brains/dobbs-text http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/teenage-brains/dob...
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- StuffMaster 15y ago
  Also, teenagers have an intense drive to move out and be on their own, and often to rebel. When thinking about how our ancestors created new villages and settled new territory, I believe that this probably played a role.
tomelders 15y ago
I really like that graph. I suspect the Chinese may well be right in their assumption that "success is outside of their control", but few other countries have the same excuses. There could be a case to be made that countries should monitor that metric very closely and work hard to improve their "Yes to No" ratio. Also, having lived and worked in Italy, my number 1 reason for setting up my company (which failed) in the UK was the insane level of bureaucracy in Italy. It's farcical, near impossible to navigate and anyone who's prepared to deal with that level of antiquated incompetence, corruption and inefficiency needs their head looking at. It's a beautiful country, but it's rotten to the core.
- joedogboi 15y ago
  Part of the Chinese belief of lack of control is the amazing amount of influence Confucian ideals still hold. How can one control one's destiny if they're beholden to their family, their elders and society. It's hard to be an innovator if individuality is discouraged. I'm not implying that Chinese men and women can't innovate, but I suspect they're disinclined to believe they can. It would be selfish to create a startup and risk failure which could jeopardize one's livelihood and therefore one's ability to continue the family. Also, failure would bring shame to the family. (There's a bit of stereotyping here, of course, and I'd love to hear from people who have spent time in Asia and could give me a more complete picture).
  - temp5678 15y ago
    I don't think Confucianism is sufficient to explain it. They don't feel a loss of control because they're beholden to their families. That's a little silly. It's really mostly the other pillar of Chinese culture; Taoism. The two belief systems over the centuries go through cycles of being influential and Taoism in the new capitalistic China is re-emergent. Taoism is really a lot about individualism, but it's also about going with the flow of life. It's called "following the Tao" and is very fatalistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei
    - pjin 15y ago
fasouto 15y ago
Spanish here, it's the same in my country... Also you have to deal with stupid bureaucracy and pay a lot of taxes even if you are not profitable.
phatbyte 15y ago
Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and expect to get a job the next day just because. I have serious arguments with family members and friends regarding this, because I'm the totally opposite, I strive to succeeded and I'm happy and inspired when I see someone else succeeding. I don't want to be in a safe job for the rest of my life, I want to be in a limbo all the time, that will make me push forward and fight to a have a better life. And to be honest I'm doing a lot better than most of the people here, even if I don't have a "stable" job. I'm currently working as freelancer for companies outside portugal, and I've just funded my company in the US. I expect to get away from here next year. I just can't stand this mentality
- pdelgallego 15y ago
  Iberian fellow here. How do you manage to funded your company in the US?
  - phatbyte 15y ago
    I got incorporated in the US. Not funded as in VC funding.
    - albertogh 15y ago
      I'm pretty sure he meant to say "to incorporate" (fundar in Spanish) rather than "to fund" (financiar).
    - pdelgallego 15y ago
      Sorry, my bad. As Alberto pointed in his comment, I was asking about how to incorporate a company in the USA when you are not a USA citizen (neither a legal resident)?
program 15y ago
I am italian, I have a full-time job in an IT private company, I own an house and I know why you can't create a startup in Italy: money, burocracy and taxes. In Italy banks or companies will never invest money in your startup if you can't cover at least all the money you need in 4/5 years. If you dare to found a new company and you fail then your life is destroyed. You are tagged as "cattivo pagatore" (bad payer) and you will never obtain money in form of loans. Italy is a very bad place if you want to make something innovative.
- davidw 15y ago
  BTW, I hope you and all the other Italians reading have taken a moment to sign the petition (and help in any other ways that you can) here: http://www.srlfacile.org http://www.srlfacile.org What with the crisis, these sorts of reforms actually have a chance.
- italophil 15y ago
  You blaming it on outside forces (money, burocracy and taxes) just validates one of the points in the article. I am German, working some years for FIAT, and did my PhD in Italy, but left right after graduation for the US. The article perfectly summarizes the reasons I didn't want to stay and start something in Italy.
  - viandante 15y ago
    You are right, but those outside forces are really strong. I had to fight only to study abroad, which is seen as a waste of time and possible drawback on your cv (because you spent time studying abroad instead of studying for real...). The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. But than that is also not useful for Italy. So, you see the problem?
    - riffraff 15y ago
      how does B follow from A? The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. there is by definition one simple way not to sound like someone complaining about outside forces: don't complain. If you start by the assumption that it's impossible to do so in country X you have already decided to be in the "it's not my fault" camp.
danso 15y ago
The included Pew center graph is powerful. And fascinating: http://programmingzen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/does-success-depend-on-forces-outside-our-control-e1320936286945.png http://programmingzen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/does-su... Interesting to see South Korea near the right side, rather than closer to Japan.
cq 15y ago
the OP is full of shit, read this : http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/11/10/start-ups-and-safety-nets/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/11/10/start-ups-an...
- smackfu 15y ago
  Seems a little fast and loose for that graph to equate new LLCs and startups. Beyond the general issue of getting any statistics like "number of startups" across dozens of countries.
  - cq 15y ago
    The source for that data is the World Bank
bdesimone 15y ago
Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy. It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work. 1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that take five minutes in America, like getting residency in a state or setting up a bank account can take days if not weeks or months. 2) Taxes and rent are absurdly high compared to wages. I had a great job--and compared to my Italian born peers it really was--that earned 2,600Euro a month. My one bedroom apartment cost 1,400 Euro + 400 euro for utilities and taxes (and utilities is where you get taxed into oblivion). 3) Nepotism and "serving your own." True to what the article mentions, to get my job I had to go through 4-5 rounds of interviews. When I was chosen over the two other Italian candidates, they were blown away. How could they chose this foreigner over them? It didn't matter I was a better programmer, or an Italian citizen, or that I spoke Italian. I was American and they were Italian -- how could the employer possibly chosen me? 4) A cultural tolerance for being corrupt or sly and getting away with it. I'm generalizing some here, but I feel this to be true for the most part. And, to those who speak Italian (sorry could not find the clip with subtitles), this is a wonderful scene related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8
- phatbyte 15y ago
  I completely agree with you, even if I'm from Portugal I understand it perfectly. For instance, in order to get my SSN in portugal it took around 1-2 weeks. On the other hand, in the US I got my EIN in 5 minutes online.
- _delirium 15y ago
  On #2, €1800/mo rent including utilities sounds pretty absurd! Is that in a particularly desirable city center, or with some unusual arrangement (e.g. furnished short-term rentals?). The Italians I know here in Copenhagen have mentioned rent prices closer to €700-900 for a 1-bd back in Italy, when complaining about how expensive Copenhagen is in comparison (€1800 would even be high for Copenhagen, though; it's more like €1000-1300 here).
vanni 15y ago
Italy does not suck at all at the startup game. You English-only speaking people simply don't often hear about us because we speak Italian on Italian Startup Scene (http://www.facebook.com/groups/italianstartups/ http://www.facebook.com/groups/italianstartups/) so our plans to conquer the world with our startups remain hidden to you. ;) Antonio, come to our (why not yours yet?) group and see what 3248 Italian startuppers are currently doing to improve the situation of Italy. And after Berlusconi's exit from politics, Italy will be a better place for everyone.
- acangiano 15y ago
  Hi Vanni, I've actually been part of ISS for a while, and am familiar with the great minds that it attracts. I even talked about it on Stacktrace: http://stacktrace.it/2011/01/25/intervista-con-stefano-bernardi-sul-mondo-delle-startup-italiane/ http://stacktrace.it/2011/01/25/intervista-con-stefano-berna... Unfortunately, it's still a group of 3000-4000 people only, from which you can't really draw conclusions about a country of 60M people. On the bright side, it's a light in the dark and one of the most exciting communities I've seen in Italy.
  - vanni 15y ago
    I am allergic to generalizations, so I felt a bit sick when I read that "the real limit is the mentality that MOST young Italians have: risk aversion, fear of failure, sense of self-entitlement, fatalism, cynicism and envy". I'm not a hater here, I hate haters :P Just trying to show the other side of the coin. Moreover in the post you (implicitly) focus on tech/web startups. What about traditional startups in Italy? Btw thank you for your response.
vimalg2 15y ago
I'm Indian and the first thing i did was look at that bar chart about people's attitudes towards 'fate'. No surprise to me, India ranks highest on the fatalism curve - 80% of us believe we are helpless to choose our path to success. ...which is fine. But when i see kids here, from the next generation as well, who somehow have this attitude, it breaks my heart. For a start, i'd advocate teaching Critical thinking skills in our schools.
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quinndupont 15y ago
Italy has a grand and extensive history of craft and flexible production, and to ignore these "material" industries when analysing the existence of software companies misses a considerable factor.
Skillset 15y ago
There was a great article in the New York Times last year that partly attributed Italy's stagnation to its unusually insular, family-oriented culture. "The suspicion of Italians when it comes to extra-familial institutions explains why many here care more about protecting what they have than enhancing their wealth. Most Italians live less than a mile or two from their parents and stay there, often for financial benefits like cash and in-kind services like day care. It’s an insularity that runs all the way up to the corporate suites. The first goal of many entrepreneurs here isn’t growth, so much as keeping the business in the family." See: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.ht...
LilValleyBigEgo 15y ago
Even if I can't accurately diagnose breast cancer I'd be happy to give it a go, hrrhrrr, say no more, eh? Eh?
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angrisha 15y ago
Amazing article acangiano! Specially loved the graph...It just shows that the people who believe that success lies in their own hands end up being wealthier and more successful! I am an Indian. Yes the last column in the bar and I can totally understand what u mean about countries sucking at start up games. There is a negative mindset people have towards building new businesses. The safety and the boredom of a government job is much more appealing to them. Makes me sad...
giulivo 15y ago
not to defend Italians, but 20 (probably more) years of bad government and mafia collusion have robbed money from salaries and people, killing every real chance of growth and without giving back in turn any good social service to me these have at least influenced "Fatalism" and "Risk aversion"
- giulivo 15y ago
  blaming on "something" or "someone" else you could say, but hey bad governments and mafia DO exist

98 points by acangiano 15y ago

I like the arguments. I had to fight my family as well when making any ventures. Will they be fruitful? who knows. However my family was always saying "why risk failure, when you can have a nice 9-5 job that always pays well and is fairly stable?" or "why risk working your ass off for a year and "show nothing for it"" where to me working my ass off for a year is a year of education i'd have never received otherwise. And my family is fairly progressive. We are immigrants from Ukraine (circa '92)

fennecfoxen 15y ago
Why not? No kids yet. Limited downside. At most you've wasted some time and a small amount of cash, and you can always fall back on the steady job.

oscardelben 15y ago

I agree about the mentality problem, though I think it's mostly due ignorance in general and values that are often toward the wrong thing. Regarding taxes, it's pretty ridiculous, I would never encourage people to open a business here if they can avoid it. I'm moving to the US next year and I can't wait to stop paying the ridiculous amount of money (in proportion of what I earn) that I pay now as a consultant. I think I can add another reason why doing startups is hard in Italy: finding a cofounder or team members. I've worked in one of the biggest startup incubator in Italy (h-farm), and I can say from experience that it's super hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the day.

davidw 15y ago
> it's super hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the day. It's difficult pretty much anywhere. And even in areas where there are lots of good people (SV), you then have to pay a lot. There are plenty of talented people in Italy, that is not what I would consider the major problem.
- oscardelben 15y ago
  You have a point here, but due to the distribution of our (small) cities, we don't have many meetups here, for example. I love Italy's, just not for working.
  - davidw 15y ago
    Other European countries have similar urbanization levels/curves. And the most 'concentrated' country, the one with most of its people in cities, is, surprisingly, Australia. And they don't seem to have a ton of startups either...
- Luc 15y ago
  Italy has an education problem though. Only 1 in 10 have a higher education diploma. Among the 30-34 year olds, it's 20%, but this is still less than half what most northern European countries have (Ireland is top with 50%). [Source: IMF & Eurostat via my newspaper today.]
  - toyg 15y ago
    Italian university is... complicated. There are areas of excellence -- medicine, architecture, even engineering (!) -- but a lot of undergraduate courses are expected to run for more than 5 years, and that's a very long time for non-STEM stuff. The average length is much lower in other countries, and the format much more flexible. And I say this as a serial drop-out who now lives abroad.
Symmetry 15y ago
Regarding taxes, I was surprised to read today that corportations in Italy, if they actually complied with every law, would be paying a 68.6% tax rate. Still not as bad as a few countries in Africa where the offical tax rates are well over 100%, though. http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/italy-fact-of-the-day-4.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/ita...
- oscardelben 15y ago
  What's worse is that I never know exactly how much I'm going to pay (this is what my accountant tells me anyway).
- toyg 15y ago
  That's part of the reason why they actually don't pay any of it. Tax evasion is widespread and in the open; the government periodically reacts with amnesties, which is the catholic thing to do, right? All is forgiven, let's try again! But what are you going to do, knowing there is going to be an amnesty sooner or later? You just don't pay, of course. So the State is not getting enough money, and they have to create a new tax to cover the shortfall, which will increase the official rate but that's ok, because almost nobody is paying it anyway, not even your main politician for 17 years, and he's fucking rich. This makes the real tax rate between 5 and 20%, depending on the specific amnesty you're going to enjoy, how much you feel like paying, and how good is your accountant.
metachris 15y ago
I live in Austria and have to pay about 40 to 50% tax on any income. At least I know it's going towards things such as free universities, free healthcare, unemployment insurances for everyone. Makes the pill a bit easier to swallow.
- juliano_q 15y ago
  Looks like very good compared to Brazil, where we pay around 40% and still have to pay for private healthcare and education because the public services are terrible.
  - metachris 15y ago
    It must suck to live in Italy and pay a lot of taxes, knowing it's going straight into the pockets of corrupt and populist politicians while social services are cut and the whole economy starts spiraling downwards.
ebiester 15y ago
I'm curious how many businesses have developed devoted to getting people through the bureaucracy.

iqster 15y ago

I just saw the image of Italy on the backside of an Arduino on desk, and was thinking about how innovative the Italians are. Then I saw this on HN :)

oscardelben 15y ago
Actually Italians have been huge innovators in history and still are in some areas, it's just the system that makes it harder now.
waterside81 15y ago
Italians have provided some of the world's greatest innovations in civil and mechanical engineering and continue to do so. Perhaps their creative energy has not yet been channeled towards the space of web apps and mobile apps, which the HN audience is biased towards.

vladd 15y ago

National Geographic made an editorial describing how teen brains are more prone to risky behavior: >> Peaking during adolescence is risk-taking. We court risk more avidly as teens than at any other time. This shows reliably in the lab, where teens take more chances in controlled experiments involving everything from card games to simulated driving. And it shows in real life, where the period from roughly 15 to 25 brings peaks in all sorts of risky ventures and ugly outcomes. If teens think as well as adults do and recognize risk just as well, why do they take more chances? Here, as elsewhere, the problem lies less in what teens lack compared with adults than in what they have more of. Teens take more risks not because they don't understand the dangers but because they weigh risk versus reward differently: In situations where risk can get them something they want, they value the reward more heavily than adults do. The period's uniqueness rises from genes and developmental processes that have been selected for over thousands of generations because they play an amplified role during this key transitional period: producing a creature optimally primed to leave a safe home and move into unfamiliar territory. The move outward from home is the most difficult thing that humans do, as well as the most critical—not just for individuals but for a species that has shown an unmatched ability to master challenging new environments. In scientific terms, teenagers can be a pain in the ass. But they are quite possibly the most fully, crucially adaptive human beings around. Without them, humanity might not have so readily spread across the globe. << Full version at http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/teenage-brains/dobbs-text http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/10/teenage-brains/dob...

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StuffMaster 15y ago
Also, teenagers have an intense drive to move out and be on their own, and often to rebel. When thinking about how our ancestors created new villages and settled new territory, I believe that this probably played a role.

tomelders 15y ago

I really like that graph. I suspect the Chinese may well be right in their assumption that "success is outside of their control", but few other countries have the same excuses. There could be a case to be made that countries should monitor that metric very closely and work hard to improve their "Yes to No" ratio. Also, having lived and worked in Italy, my number 1 reason for setting up my company (which failed) in the UK was the insane level of bureaucracy in Italy. It's farcical, near impossible to navigate and anyone who's prepared to deal with that level of antiquated incompetence, corruption and inefficiency needs their head looking at. It's a beautiful country, but it's rotten to the core.

joedogboi 15y ago
Part of the Chinese belief of lack of control is the amazing amount of influence Confucian ideals still hold. How can one control one's destiny if they're beholden to their family, their elders and society. It's hard to be an innovator if individuality is discouraged. I'm not implying that Chinese men and women can't innovate, but I suspect they're disinclined to believe they can. It would be selfish to create a startup and risk failure which could jeopardize one's livelihood and therefore one's ability to continue the family. Also, failure would bring shame to the family. (There's a bit of stereotyping here, of course, and I'd love to hear from people who have spent time in Asia and could give me a more complete picture).
- temp5678 15y ago
  I don't think Confucianism is sufficient to explain it. They don't feel a loss of control because they're beholden to their families. That's a little silly. It's really mostly the other pillar of Chinese culture; Taoism. The two belief systems over the centuries go through cycles of being influential and Taoism in the new capitalistic China is re-emergent. Taoism is really a lot about individualism, but it's also about going with the flow of life. It's called "following the Tao" and is very fatalistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei
  - pjin 15y ago

fasouto 15y ago

Spanish here, it's the same in my country... Also you have to deal with stupid bureaucracy and pay a lot of taxes even if you are not profitable.

phatbyte 15y ago

Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and expect to get a job the next day just because. I have serious arguments with family members and friends regarding this, because I'm the totally opposite, I strive to succeeded and I'm happy and inspired when I see someone else succeeding. I don't want to be in a safe job for the rest of my life, I want to be in a limbo all the time, that will make me push forward and fight to a have a better life. And to be honest I'm doing a lot better than most of the people here, even if I don't have a "stable" job. I'm currently working as freelancer for companies outside portugal, and I've just funded my company in the US. I expect to get away from here next year. I just can't stand this mentality

pdelgallego 15y ago
Iberian fellow here. How do you manage to funded your company in the US?
- phatbyte 15y ago
  I got incorporated in the US. Not funded as in VC funding.
  - albertogh 15y ago
    I'm pretty sure he meant to say "to incorporate" (fundar in Spanish) rather than "to fund" (financiar).
  - pdelgallego 15y ago
    Sorry, my bad. As Alberto pointed in his comment, I was asking about how to incorporate a company in the USA when you are not a USA citizen (neither a legal resident)?

program 15y ago

I am italian, I have a full-time job in an IT private company, I own an house and I know why you can't create a startup in Italy: money, burocracy and taxes. In Italy banks or companies will never invest money in your startup if you can't cover at least all the money you need in 4/5 years. If you dare to found a new company and you fail then your life is destroyed. You are tagged as "cattivo pagatore" (bad payer) and you will never obtain money in form of loans. Italy is a very bad place if you want to make something innovative.

davidw 15y ago
BTW, I hope you and all the other Italians reading have taken a moment to sign the petition (and help in any other ways that you can) here: http://www.srlfacile.org http://www.srlfacile.org What with the crisis, these sorts of reforms actually have a chance.
italophil 15y ago
You blaming it on outside forces (money, burocracy and taxes) just validates one of the points in the article. I am German, working some years for FIAT, and did my PhD in Italy, but left right after graduation for the US. The article perfectly summarizes the reasons I didn't want to stay and start something in Italy.
- viandante 15y ago
  You are right, but those outside forces are really strong. I had to fight only to study abroad, which is seen as a waste of time and possible drawback on your cv (because you spent time studying abroad instead of studying for real...). The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. But than that is also not useful for Italy. So, you see the problem?
  - riffraff 15y ago
    how does B follow from A? The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. there is by definition one simple way not to sound like someone complaining about outside forces: don't complain. If you start by the assumption that it's impossible to do so in country X you have already decided to be in the "it's not my fault" camp.

danso 15y ago

The included Pew center graph is powerful. And fascinating: http://programmingzen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/does-success-depend-on-forces-outside-our-control-e1320936286945.png http://programmingzen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/does-su... Interesting to see South Korea near the right side, rather than closer to Japan.

cq 15y ago

the OP is full of shit, read this : http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/11/10/start-ups-and-safety-nets/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/11/10/start-ups-an...

smackfu 15y ago
Seems a little fast and loose for that graph to equate new LLCs and startups. Beyond the general issue of getting any statistics like "number of startups" across dozens of countries.
- cq 15y ago
  The source for that data is the World Bank

bdesimone 15y ago

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy. It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work. 1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that take five minutes in America, like getting residency in a state or setting up a bank account can take days if not weeks or months. 2) Taxes and rent are absurdly high compared to wages. I had a great job--and compared to my Italian born peers it really was--that earned 2,600Euro a month. My one bedroom apartment cost 1,400 Euro + 400 euro for utilities and taxes (and utilities is where you get taxed into oblivion). 3) Nepotism and "serving your own." True to what the article mentions, to get my job I had to go through 4-5 rounds of interviews. When I was chosen over the two other Italian candidates, they were blown away. How could they chose this foreigner over them? It didn't matter I was a better programmer, or an Italian citizen, or that I spoke Italian. I was American and they were Italian -- how could the employer possibly chosen me? 4) A cultural tolerance for being corrupt or sly and getting away with it. I'm generalizing some here, but I feel this to be true for the most part. And, to those who speak Italian (sorry could not find the clip with subtitles), this is a wonderful scene related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8

phatbyte 15y ago
I completely agree with you, even if I'm from Portugal I understand it perfectly. For instance, in order to get my SSN in portugal it took around 1-2 weeks. On the other hand, in the US I got my EIN in 5 minutes online.
_delirium 15y ago
On #2, €1800/mo rent including utilities sounds pretty absurd! Is that in a particularly desirable city center, or with some unusual arrangement (e.g. furnished short-term rentals?). The Italians I know here in Copenhagen have mentioned rent prices closer to €700-900 for a 1-bd back in Italy, when complaining about how expensive Copenhagen is in comparison (€1800 would even be high for Copenhagen, though; it's more like €1000-1300 here).

vanni 15y ago

Italy does not suck at all at the startup game. You English-only speaking people simply don't often hear about us because we speak Italian on Italian Startup Scene (http://www.facebook.com/groups/italianstartups/ http://www.facebook.com/groups/italianstartups/) so our plans to conquer the world with our startups remain hidden to you. ;) Antonio, come to our (why not yours yet?) group and see what 3248 Italian startuppers are currently doing to improve the situation of Italy. And after Berlusconi's exit from politics, Italy will be a better place for everyone.

acangiano 15y ago
Hi Vanni, I've actually been part of ISS for a while, and am familiar with the great minds that it attracts. I even talked about it on Stacktrace: http://stacktrace.it/2011/01/25/intervista-con-stefano-bernardi-sul-mondo-delle-startup-italiane/ http://stacktrace.it/2011/01/25/intervista-con-stefano-berna... Unfortunately, it's still a group of 3000-4000 people only, from which you can't really draw conclusions about a country of 60M people. On the bright side, it's a light in the dark and one of the most exciting communities I've seen in Italy.
- vanni 15y ago
  I am allergic to generalizations, so I felt a bit sick when I read that "the real limit is the mentality that MOST young Italians have: risk aversion, fear of failure, sense of self-entitlement, fatalism, cynicism and envy". I'm not a hater here, I hate haters :P Just trying to show the other side of the coin. Moreover in the post you (implicitly) focus on tech/web startups. What about traditional startups in Italy? Btw thank you for your response.

vimalg2 15y ago

I'm Indian and the first thing i did was look at that bar chart about people's attitudes towards 'fate'. No surprise to me, India ranks highest on the fatalism curve - 80% of us believe we are helpless to choose our path to success. ...which is fine. But when i see kids here, from the next generation as well, who somehow have this attitude, it breaks my heart. For a start, i'd advocate teaching Critical thinking skills in our schools.

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quinndupont 15y ago

Italy has a grand and extensive history of craft and flexible production, and to ignore these "material" industries when analysing the existence of software companies misses a considerable factor.

Skillset 15y ago

There was a great article in the New York Times last year that partly attributed Italy's stagnation to its unusually insular, family-oriented culture. "The suspicion of Italians when it comes to extra-familial institutions explains why many here care more about protecting what they have than enhancing their wealth. Most Italians live less than a mile or two from their parents and stay there, often for financial benefits like cash and in-kind services like day care. It’s an insularity that runs all the way up to the corporate suites. The first goal of many entrepreneurs here isn’t growth, so much as keeping the business in the family." See: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.ht...

LilValleyBigEgo 15y ago

Even if I can't accurately diagnose breast cancer I'd be happy to give it a go, hrrhrrr, say no more, eh? Eh?

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angrisha 15y ago

Amazing article acangiano! Specially loved the graph...It just shows that the people who believe that success lies in their own hands end up being wealthier and more successful! I am an Indian. Yes the last column in the bar and I can totally understand what u mean about countries sucking at start up games. There is a negative mindset people have towards building new businesses. The safety and the boredom of a government job is much more appealing to them. Makes me sad...

giulivo 15y ago

not to defend Italians, but 20 (probably more) years of bad government and mafia collusion have robbed money from salaries and people, killing every real chance of growth and without giving back in turn any good social service to me these have at least influenced "Fatalism" and "Risk aversion"

giulivo 15y ago
blaming on "something" or "someone" else you could say, but hey bad governments and mafia DO exist