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Money != Wealth You can go ahead and force every billionaire to sell off everything they own and hand it to the government and all you end up with is a one tim
by lotharcable 4y ago
Money != Wealth
You can go ahead and force every billionaire to sell off everything they own and hand it to the government and all you end up with is a one time boost to government tax receipts.
That's it. One time boost. Next year those billionaires will be gone. There won't be new ones.
And it won't create any more food. It won't solve shortages. It won't create more solar panels. It won't create 1 mile of copper lines.
Because when the government goes and says "I need 40 million acres of solar panels"... Who is going to do that? Where is that going to come from?
- WalterBright 4y agoThe communists have repeatedly done the equivalent, which is nationalizing industries. It never, ever produced better results.
- walrus01 4y agoGovernment owned, government built, government run regional monopoly electricity generators in North America are already the absolute cheapest dollars per kilowatt hour in the continent. It's not communism. I am referring to hydro quebec, and to the hydroelectric dams in central Washington State. Would you claim that if we had let the free market build those hydroelectric dams using private capital instead, that we would have better results right now?
- WalterBright 4y agoI read recently that Mexico was nationalizing part of its electric grid and user prices were expected to rise as a result.
- WalterBright 4y agoFound it: https://www.wsj.com/articles/mexico-energy-cfe-obrador-11655000527 https://www.wsj.com/articles/mexico-energy-cfe-obrador-11655...
- Aeolun 4y ago> that we would have better results right now? Think of the shareholders! All that lost value could have gone to line their pockets, but instead it’s being used for the good of society (to be fair, probably to those same shareholders through different companies at exorbitant rates).
- WalterBright 4y ago> All that lost value could have gone to line their pockets, but instead it’s being used for the good of society That is indeed the pitch the communists make. How is that working out for them?
- rfrey 4y agoIt's working out great for the communist governments of Quebec and Washington State. The communists in Norway also seem to be doing ok.
- WalterBright 4y agoThe communists in Norway, like Russia, benefit enormously from pumping oil out of the ground, which goes to the government. In Norway's case, it's 20% of the GDP. Probably much more today with all the oil price increases.
- Teever 4y agoCan you comment on the communists of Quebec? As a Canadian, this is what I find lacking in debate on American sites like Reddit or HN. Canada is very similar to the United States, another way of saying that is that Canada does things slightly different yet the results seem to be profoundly different than the States. Why is that, and what are we as Canadians doing that Americans and others around the world should attempt to copy and improve upon?
- WalterBright 4y ago
- pclmulqdq 4y agoI would claim that, yes, private capital would generate power more cheaply with those dams, but that isn't the only reason those dams are there. They serve several alternative functions (ie preventing flooding, keeping lakes full) that a free marketeer would not do. However, dams are cheap enough for power generation that even with government inefficiency involved in their construction and operation, the power is so cheap that it doesn't matter.
- NikolaNovak 4y agoI thought that question got empathically answered when Ontario hydro was privatized and split and went to hell together with our electricity prices. Same with Ontario vs Manitoba or Quebec car insurance etc. Some things just suck when they're privatized - they focus on short term gain and end up with lousy infra and long term preparedness. I think HN has a pretty solid consensus on private telecom monopolies vs municipal fiber as well. Back to topic, I thought most of usa private power monopolies are basically in dire straits from infra upkeep and maintenance and grid - there's a lot of bright knowledgeable folks on HN so I would genuinely appreciate comment if I'm way off base in my ignorant ways.
- 8note 4y agoAs a limiting case, a private system can't do it cheaper than a public one. A private system needs to skim profits off the top, which will always limit how cheap it can go
- Consultant32452 4y ago"Your margin is my opportunity." ~Jeff Bezos Private is cheaper if there is competition. Monopolies are always more costly, public or private.
- ben_w 4y agoPrivate is not always cheaper — the NHS comes to mind as a counter-example, and is cheaper in part because the British government gets to act as a monopsony. While competition can indeed help illuminate new solutions, competition can also come in the form of different political parties and international comparisons.
- WalterBright 4y agoMost dams are privately owned. https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/fema_living-with-dams_p-956.pdf https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/2020-08/fema_living...
- defrost 4y ago"never ever" is both a strong claim and ridiculous. I'll take the Australian Snowy River Hydro scheme over the mess in Texas any day.
- WalterBright 4y agoHow about the California power system?
- the_why_of_y 4y agoI find the one in Texas much more impressive. https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/09/preliminary-report-looks-into-what-went-wrong-during-texas-grid-collapse/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/09/preliminary-report-l... While Texans froze and natural gas-fired power plants tripped offline during a February cold snap, natural gas traders and pipeline companies made up to $11 billion in just nine days. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/11-billion-in-9-days-texas-natural-gas-sellers-cashed-in-on-deep-freeze/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/11-billion-in-9-... “I will say we understand that it would be unacceptable to just have customers bear the cost on their monthly bill and as if anybody could pay for that,” Gold-Williams said. “So we are working diligently - the financial services team is working diligently, trying to figure out ways to truly spread that cost, potentially maybe, you know 15 - I mean, 10 years or longer to try to make it affordable. We don’t have that fully assessed.” https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2021/02/19/skyrocketing-price-of-power-leads-to-concern-over-next-cps-energy-bill/ https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2021/02/19/skyrocketing-pric...
- defrost 4y agoI'm Australian and as a nation we're considerably more "communist" than can be found in the US .. with many major public funded infrastructure projects historically established, a global AAA credit rating, a minimum living wage since 1900, national health, functioning democracy, etc. There are numerous counter examples to your overly broad "never ever" claims here.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoFrance is buying out the remainder of EDF (France’s commercial nuclear fleet operator) for €10 billion, so we’re going to get another chance to observe the experiment. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/19/france-to-pay-nearly-10bn-to-fully-nationalise-edf https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/19/france-to-p...
- spaniard89277 4y agoIt's not going to be any different. They're buying EDF because the current situation of their nuclear capacity is a shitshow.
- 8note 4y agoAramco has done great though
- walrus01 4y ago>Because when the government goes and says "I need 40 million acres of solar panels"... Who is going to do that? Where is that going to come from? 1) the empty arid land where we would put 40 million acres of solar panels is for the most part already owned by a state or national level government. go look at a map of how much of nevada is controlled by the BLM for instance. 2) governments already pay for electrical generation through nuclear power plants, building hydroelectric dams, etc. the question would be to apply that same money to building giant ground mount PV instead.
- ncmncm 4y agoArid land will soon be recognized as the worst place to put solar farms.
- distances 4y agoHow is this related to the parent comment? I don't get what you are talking about here.
- otikik 4y agoThose billionaires will no longer be buying politicians in the following years either. Perhaps it’s worth doing just for that effect alone.