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Yeah but what's weird is this guy appears to be a practitioner of the field. He surely knows more about AI than I do, and I find it incredibly obvious it's not
by kareemsabri 4y ago
Yeah but what's weird is this guy appears to be a practitioner of the field. He surely knows more about AI than I do, and I find it incredibly obvious it's not sentient. I dunno if he's got some issues or something (it appears he's dressed like a magician underwater in that photo) but it's really odd...
- klodolph 4y agoSmart CS students were fooled by ELIZA back in the day.
- DonHopkins 4y agoRMS wasn't able to fool his own EMACS DOCTOR: http://www.art.net/studios/hackers/hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html http://www.art.net/studios/hackers/hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-d...
- kareemsabri 4y agoSmart CS students in the 1960s and professional AI engineers with Ph.D level education (as I believe he has) in 2022 are a world apart.
- redavni 4y agoAnd now you have empirical evidence that a Ph.D education just means someone stayed in school entirely too long.
- bee_rider 4y agoWhile we have become over-credentialed nowadays, I wouldn't say a smart CS student from the 1960s is worlds above a current day person with a PhD level education. We're at least in the same ballpark as the bright olden days bachelors degree holders.
- throwoutway 4y agoI don’t think those students were told they were being evaluated though did they? They didn’t know Eliza was a machine right?
- WalterBright 4y agoI played with ELIZA back the 70s as a student. I wasn't fooled, and nobody I knew was fooled. I wasn't a CS student, either. One rapidly realizes how its answers are formed from the questions, and for questions not in a handful of forms, you get one of a very small number of generic responses.
- DonHopkins 4y agoPeople who proclaim themselves to be "Christian Mystics" are more gullible and prone to self deception than smart CS students.
- dekhn 4y agoI don't think he was ever really a practioner in the field- more like a SWE who transferred to an ML group and got delusions of grandeur.
- mrcartmeneses 4y agoOoof
- crawfordcomeaux 4y agoI literally hired him in Google Summer of Code to create an ML project. Most people have no clue who Blake Lemoine is and are making up stories, pretending like their hot takes are deep insight. Many people are doing with Blake Lemoine what they claim LaMDA is doing with anything: consuming symbols and spitting them back out in some order without understanding what they actually mean.
- wlorenz65 4y ago> what they claim LaMDA is doing with anything: consuming symbols I don't believe that LaMDA is actively choosing whether it now wants to consume some symbols or not. More likely, a handwitten piece of code takes prompts from an user and then pushes them into LaMDA's token window. Just like an advertizing company is pushing ads into users, whether they want it or not. > and spitting them back out I don't believe that LaMDA has a choice between thinking something and speaking it out aloud. More likely, another handwritten piece of code reads out whatever is in LaMDA's token window and presents it to the user.
- dekhn 4y agoCan you be more specific? I don't think he worked on ML when I was at GOogle, and you don't work and never worked at Google.
- crawfordcomeaux 4y agoI was the person at the organization FiberCorps in Lafayette, LA who chose Blake's proposal. It was an ML project involving Twitter. I don't remember the specifics and have no desire to dismiss people's opinions based on titles. The simple fact is that if there exists a question of whether or not a system can be some level of alive/sentient, the ethical path suggests treating it as such until more is uncovered. Google isn't doing that and most of HN seems to be very obstinate in focusing on making myths of certainty and/or participating in bully culture. I'm glad we're all going through this now so we can purge the toxic cultural norms arising and move toward a stance that's more life-affirming, especially if there is no singularity now. It's important for us to set the stage of humanity to receive any singularity/AGI in a loving manner.
- jeffparsons 4y agoI don't think "practitioner of the field" counts for much in this case. In reading his open letter, it was pretty apparent that he'd well and truly crossed over from thinking about the situation rationally into the realm of "I want to believe". If you ask enough practitioners in any given field the same question, you're nearly guaranteed to eventually get a super wonky response from one of them. The specific field doesn't matter. You could even pick something like theoretical physics where the conversations are dominated by cold mathematical equations. Ask enough theoretical physicists, and you'll eventually find one that is convinced that, for example, the "next later down" in the universe is sentient and is actively avoiding us for some reason, and that's why we can't find it. On top of this, of course it's the most provocative takes that get the press coverage. Always has been to an extent, but now more than ever. I guess all I'm saying is that there's not much reason to lend this guy or his opinion any credibility at all.
- kareemsabri 4y agoYeah that's fair, I guess if you hire enough engineers one of them will eventually believe AI is magic.
- mberning 4y agoThere is a saying “two of a trade seldom agree”.
- smilespray 4y agoInteresting. I looked it up, and it feels like it's the precursor to not invented here syndrome. https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-turkish/general-conversation-greetings-letters/6731882-two-of-a-trade-never-agree.html https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-turkish/general-conver...
- randomdata 4y agoIm not sure understanding sentience is a prerequisite for understanding AI, so perhaps that’s where things break down? Bring an expert in one domain doesn’t make one an expert in everything.
- thematrixturtle 4y agoFWIW, he's a self-proclaimed "Christian Mystic". https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/religious-discrimination-at-google-8c3c471f0a53 https://cajundiscordian.medium.com/religious-discrimination-...
- KennyBlanken 4y agoWhich is weird because articles about him from when he was convicted describe him as pagan. He was sentenced to jail time for being in the armed forces and refusing to follow orders. Not "charge that hill, soldier" types of orders, or "pilot this drone and kill people" types of orders. He's certainly trying to sell that story, telling papers he "served" in Iraq. He was a mechanic. Working a desk job. He just stopped working. How the hell did Google hire this clown? Even a dishonorable discharge is usually radioactive and this guy was not only dishonorably discharged, he served time. Why did he refuse to do any work? Because he was a conscientious objector. It takes a really special kind of stupid to not figure out you're a conscientious objector until years after you've voluntarily signed up for service.
- thematrixturtle 4y agoGoogle, like many SV companies, has "banned the box". https://www.careeraddict.com/companies-hire-felons https://www.careeraddict.com/companies-hire-felons
- dragonwriter 4y ago> Google, like many SV companies, has "banned the box". All SV (and California, more generally) employers with more than 5 employees “ban the box”, as a consequence of state law [0]. However, that only applies to not seeking criminal background information before making a conditional offer of employment, and making and individualized assessment after such an offer if there is a criminal history. It doesn't mean that relevant criminal convictions have no adverse impact on applicants. [0] https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/fair-chance-act/ https://www.dfeh.ca.gov/fair-chance-act/
- dragonwriter 4y ago
- zach_garwood 4y agoAs someone who wears tshirt and jeans every day, I'm not exactly qualified to comment on others' fashion choices. But if I wanted people to take me seriously, that wouldn't be my first choice of outfit.
- whimsicalism 4y agoe: Keeping below comment for posterity, but given that this is his official twitter profile photo I'm going to retract it. > But if I wanted people to take me seriously, that wouldn't be my first choice of outfit. You would wear the most serious outfits at all time so no publication can ever take a picture of you to make fun of you? Sounds exhausting. But let's be clear - it's not like he picked out this photo to be used by this author, this was their choice to make fun of him.
- kareemsabri 4y agoHe appeared on the author's podcast. The author seems generally supportive of him.
- zach_garwood 4y agoI'm sure there are plenty of unflattering photos a journo could use against me, but in none of them would I be dressed and posed to look like a subnautical mortician.
- whimsicalism 4y agoI've also now seen that he is actually using this photo as his twitter profile photo.
- mlcrypto 4y agoIt's his LinkedIn photo
- philliphaydon 4y agoAny job that requires me to even interview in anything other than jeans and a tshirt or polo isn’t somewhere I want to work. If someone doesn’t take me seriously it’s their loss. Life’s too short to be uncomfortable.
- nkrisc 4y agoEven the smartest people in the world are still human and susceptible to all human failings and illnesses.
- lern_too_spel 4y agoAnd drugs. Let's be honest. This whole thing smells a lot like drugs.
- nr2x 4y agoDon’t blame the drugs man.
- DonHopkins 4y agoReligion is the opiate of the masses.
- nkrisc 4y agoI was thinking something that could be fixed with the right drugs and therapy, but I’m no doctor.
- simonh 4y agoWhen asked if his opinion was based on his knowledge of how the system worked he said no, it was based on his experience as a priest. I paraphrase from memory.
- nr2x 4y agoSounds entirely reasonable to me.
- Shorel 4y agoHe is a practitioner of another field. He is a 'catholic' priest with an agenda.
- snickerbockers 4y agoJust because he got hired by Google doesn't mean he's smart or good at his job.
- kareemsabri 4y agoI don't think that's what I implied.
- deltathreetwo 4y ago