4 ms·

I'm torn on whether to see this as a problem that needs solving by people outside of those communities. I.e., the libertarian in me wants to let each community

I'm torn on whether to see this as a problem that needs solving by people outside of those communities. I.e., the libertarian in me wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons. On the other hand, those communities aren't 100% insular from surrounding society. Maybe their lower vaccination rates increase the chances of spreading the virus to outsiders who can't be vaccinated, consume extra healthcare resources, and/or increase the odds of generating a new variant that current vaccines can't stop.

bobkazamakis 4y ago
>I.e., the libertarian in my wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons. Has the libertarian in you seen what happens when an area bans guns but the surrounding areas don't?
- nradov 4y ago
  Which areas have banned guns?
  - throwaway_4ever 4y ago
    OP is referring to a place like Chicago that has some of the strictest gun bans, is lambasted by conservative media, "look, gun bans but still high shootings," but generally fail to realize that Chicago is surrounded by areas with the loosest gun restrictions like next door Indiana. The guns just come right across state borders 5 miles away.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Guns are not banned in Chicago. There do have tighter restrictions than surrounding areas (and some of those restrictions may be unconstitutional), but many Chicagoans legally own guns. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-306468736022 https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-30646...
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        They were for a very long time, but right-wing rhetoric takes decades to be updated. Most of it is recycled Ezra Pound/Eustace Mullins/John Birch shit.
      - throwaway_4ever 4y ago
        Is there a meaningful difference between ban and restriction? It seems pedantic. But maybe wrt specifically gun law there is a difference? I never implied all guns were banned in Chicago. "some of the strictest"
        yonaguska 4y ago
        Yes, a ban would mean you'd be a criminal by mere possession, while restrictions means you have to jump through lots of hoops in order to not be a criminal. You can legally conceal carry a gun in Chicago. And based on my conversations with several members of law enforcement as well as a few notable cases of self defense, you probably won't be charged if you have a strong self defense case, even if you happen to be unintentionally breaking a law. Such as the woman that shot a man trying to rob/rape her while she was waiting for the bus. She would have been carrying illegally by virtue of using public transit, but no charges were pressed.
    - fein 4y ago
      And yet those states with lax gun regulations have nothing even close to the level of gun crime in the Chicago area. If it was availability of guns that was the catalyst for this behavior, one would expect to see similar patterns elsewhere.
      - namdnay 4y ago
        I think that’s the point of the poster above? That the ready availability of guns around Chicago is a factor in the gun violence within the city
      - mcguire 4y ago
        Chicago has a firearm homicide rate of 29 per 100,000 (https://oneaimil.org/the-issue/impact-of-gun-violence/ https://oneaimil.org/the-issue/impact-of-gun-violence/). Illinois overall has a "firearm injury death rate" of 14.1 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/illinois/il.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/illinois/il.htm). Indiana overall has a firearm injury death rate of 17.3 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/indiana/in.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/indiana/in.htm). Mississippi (28.6), Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama and Alaska all have rates above 23 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/...). "Phillips County, Arkansas, with only 22,000 residents, had the nation’s highest homicide rate. Meanwhile, Cook County, Illinois (Chicago), which often captures the media’s attention around violence, had the 79th highest gun homicide rate." (https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/2020-gun-deaths-in-the-us-4-28-2022-b.pdf https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/202...)
      - lern_too_spel 4y ago
        Gary, the city in Indiana right next to Chicago, is a top contender for murder capital of the US year after year. Chicago never reaches the podium. https://madison.com/news/national/the-30-cities-with-the-highest-murder-rates-in-the-us/collection_33b57fa7-d832-502d-ad55-aa29609b9a57.html https://madison.com/news/national/the-30-cities-with-the-hig...
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    The Supreme Court for one.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
  What happens?
mmastrac 4y ago
Libertarianism always falters when it's up against one of the many commons we inhabit with our fellow humans. None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Libertarians believe (I know that's an impossible statement, they're too heterogeneous) that people should be liable for harm they do to others, so maybe that'd be grounds for a class action.
- scifibestfi 4y ago
  > None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking. This shouldn't be a controversial comment. How could it even be argued otherwise?
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    The isms as points on the political compass are abstractions, they don't exist and the writings of anyone associated with them are always far more complex than the one-sentence summaries.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    Taoists may have a difference of opinion on the matter.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
namdnay 4y ago
The libertarian in me thinks that it’s unfair for a child to be crippled for life because of the imbecilic views of their parents. That’s where the “to each their own” philosophy breaks down for me - it assumes that children “belong” to their parents, and that it’s fair for them to have to shoulder the consequences of their parents’ decisions
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  There are children who can't be vaccinated because of medical complications. This is why we need herd immunity.
syntheticcdo 4y ago
Conversely, the libertarian in me essentially ceased to exist after personally witnessing the initial American response to the pandemic. Libertarianism works best if every individual acts selfishly in their own interest, and the number of people who chose to _not_ get vaccinated _against_ their own best interest showed me the folly of treating individual choice as paramount concern to any policy discussion.
- origin_path 4y ago
  They think it's for their own best interest, and who are you to say otherwise? You think the CDC is a trustworthy neutral third party in such matters?
  - syntheticcdo 4y ago
    Yes.

bobkazamakis 4y ago

>I.e., the libertarian in my wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons. Has the libertarian in you seen what happens when an area bans guns but the surrounding areas don't?

nradov 4y ago
Which areas have banned guns?
- throwaway_4ever 4y ago
  OP is referring to a place like Chicago that has some of the strictest gun bans, is lambasted by conservative media, "look, gun bans but still high shootings," but generally fail to realize that Chicago is surrounded by areas with the loosest gun restrictions like next door Indiana. The guns just come right across state borders 5 miles away.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Guns are not banned in Chicago. There do have tighter restrictions than surrounding areas (and some of those restrictions may be unconstitutional), but many Chicagoans legally own guns. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-306468736022 https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-30646...
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      They were for a very long time, but right-wing rhetoric takes decades to be updated. Most of it is recycled Ezra Pound/Eustace Mullins/John Birch shit.
    - throwaway_4ever 4y ago
      Is there a meaningful difference between ban and restriction? It seems pedantic. But maybe wrt specifically gun law there is a difference? I never implied all guns were banned in Chicago. "some of the strictest"
      - yonaguska 4y ago
        Yes, a ban would mean you'd be a criminal by mere possession, while restrictions means you have to jump through lots of hoops in order to not be a criminal. You can legally conceal carry a gun in Chicago. And based on my conversations with several members of law enforcement as well as a few notable cases of self defense, you probably won't be charged if you have a strong self defense case, even if you happen to be unintentionally breaking a law. Such as the woman that shot a man trying to rob/rape her while she was waiting for the bus. She would have been carrying illegally by virtue of using public transit, but no charges were pressed.
  - fein 4y ago
    And yet those states with lax gun regulations have nothing even close to the level of gun crime in the Chicago area. If it was availability of guns that was the catalyst for this behavior, one would expect to see similar patterns elsewhere.
    - namdnay 4y ago
      I think that’s the point of the poster above? That the ready availability of guns around Chicago is a factor in the gun violence within the city
    - mcguire 4y ago
      Chicago has a firearm homicide rate of 29 per 100,000 (https://oneaimil.org/the-issue/impact-of-gun-violence/ https://oneaimil.org/the-issue/impact-of-gun-violence/). Illinois overall has a "firearm injury death rate" of 14.1 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/illinois/il.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/illinois/il.htm). Indiana overall has a firearm injury death rate of 17.3 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/indiana/in.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/indiana/in.htm). Mississippi (28.6), Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama and Alaska all have rates above 23 per 100,000 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/...). "Phillips County, Arkansas, with only 22,000 residents, had the nation’s highest homicide rate. Meanwhile, Cook County, Illinois (Chicago), which often captures the media’s attention around violence, had the 79th highest gun homicide rate." (https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/2020-gun-deaths-in-the-us-4-28-2022-b.pdf https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2022-05/202...)
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      Gary, the city in Indiana right next to Chicago, is a top contender for murder capital of the US year after year. Chicago never reaches the podium. https://madison.com/news/national/the-30-cities-with-the-highest-murder-rates-in-the-us/collection_33b57fa7-d832-502d-ad55-aa29609b9a57.html https://madison.com/news/national/the-30-cities-with-the-hig...
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  The Supreme Court for one.
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
What happens?

mmastrac 4y ago

Libertarianism always falters when it's up against one of the many commons we inhabit with our fellow humans. None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking.

whatshisface 4y ago
Libertarians believe (I know that's an impossible statement, they're too heterogeneous) that people should be liable for harm they do to others, so maybe that'd be grounds for a class action.
scifibestfi 4y ago
> None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking. This shouldn't be a controversial comment. How could it even be argued otherwise?
- whatshisface 4y ago
  The isms as points on the political compass are abstractions, they don't exist and the writings of anyone associated with them are always far more complex than the one-sentence summaries.
- mistermann 4y ago
  Taoists may have a difference of opinion on the matter.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

namdnay 4y ago

The libertarian in me thinks that it’s unfair for a child to be crippled for life because of the imbecilic views of their parents. That’s where the “to each their own” philosophy breaks down for me - it assumes that children “belong” to their parents, and that it’s fair for them to have to shoulder the consequences of their parents’ decisions

MomoXenosaga 4y ago
There are children who can't be vaccinated because of medical complications. This is why we need herd immunity.

syntheticcdo 4y ago

Conversely, the libertarian in me essentially ceased to exist after personally witnessing the initial American response to the pandemic. Libertarianism works best if every individual acts selfishly in their own interest, and the number of people who chose to _not_ get vaccinated _against_ their own best interest showed me the folly of treating individual choice as paramount concern to any policy discussion.

origin_path 4y ago
They think it's for their own best interest, and who are you to say otherwise? You think the CDC is a trustworthy neutral third party in such matters?
- syntheticcdo 4y ago
  Yes.