7 ms·

Its worth noting that on both the Rockland County and NYC sides, these outbreaks are largely contained to ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities that operate sort of

Its worth noting that on both the Rockland County and NYC sides, these outbreaks are largely contained to ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities that operate sort of adjacent to secular society. Not that this excuses anything; much has been written about the challenges within and around these communities and the lives of people within them. But the issue is less that the modern public health apparatus has collapsed and more that there are large groups of people in these areas who have extreme religious views and generally seek isolation from the secular world - an isolation that extends up to and includes public education and public health.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
I'm torn on whether to see this as a problem that needs solving by people outside of those communities. I.e., the libertarian in me wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons. On the other hand, those communities aren't 100% insular from surrounding society. Maybe their lower vaccination rates increase the chances of spreading the virus to outsiders who can't be vaccinated, consume extra healthcare resources, and/or increase the odds of generating a new variant that current vaccines can't stop.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  >I.e., the libertarian in my wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons. Has the libertarian in you seen what happens when an area bans guns but the surrounding areas don't?
  - nradov 4y ago
    Which areas have banned guns?
    - throwaway_4ever 4y ago
      OP is referring to a place like Chicago that has some of the strictest gun bans, is lambasted by conservative media, "look, gun bans but still high shootings," but generally fail to realize that Chicago is surrounded by areas with the loosest gun restrictions like next door Indiana. The guns just come right across state borders 5 miles away.
      - nradov 4y ago
        Guns are not banned in Chicago. There do have tighter restrictions than surrounding areas (and some of those restrictions may be unconstitutional), but many Chicagoans legally own guns. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-306468736022 https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-30646...
        pessimizer 4y ago
        They were for a very long time, but right-wing rhetoric takes decades to be updated. Most of it is recycled Ezra Pound/Eustace Mullins/John Birch shit.
        throwaway_4ever 4y ago
        Is there a meaningful difference between ban and restriction? It seems pedantic. But maybe wrt specifically gun law there is a difference? I never implied all guns were banned in Chicago. "some of the strictest"
        yonaguska 4y ago
        Yes, a ban would mean you'd be a criminal by mere possession, while restrictions means you have to jump through lots of hoops in order to not be a criminal. You can legally conceal carry a gun in Chicago. And based on my conversations with several members of law enforcement as well as a few notable cases of self defense, you probably won't be charged if you have a strong self defense case, even if you happen to be unintentionally breaking a law. Such as the woman that shot a man trying to rob/rape her while she was waiting for the bus. She would have been carrying illegally by virtue of using public transit, but no charges were pressed.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      The Supreme Court for one.
  - aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
    What happens?
- mmastrac 4y ago
  Libertarianism always falters when it's up against one of the many commons we inhabit with our fellow humans. None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Libertarians believe (I know that's an impossible statement, they're too heterogeneous) that people should be liable for harm they do to others, so maybe that'd be grounds for a class action.
  - scifibestfi 4y ago
    > None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking. This shouldn't be a controversial comment. How could it even be argued otherwise?
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      The isms as points on the political compass are abstractions, they don't exist and the writings of anyone associated with them are always far more complex than the one-sentence summaries.
    - mistermann 4y ago
      Taoists may have a difference of opinion on the matter.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- namdnay 4y ago
  The libertarian in me thinks that it’s unfair for a child to be crippled for life because of the imbecilic views of their parents. That’s where the “to each their own” philosophy breaks down for me - it assumes that children “belong” to their parents, and that it’s fair for them to have to shoulder the consequences of their parents’ decisions
  - MomoXenosaga 4y ago
    There are children who can't be vaccinated because of medical complications. This is why we need herd immunity.
- syntheticcdo 4y ago
  Conversely, the libertarian in me essentially ceased to exist after personally witnessing the initial American response to the pandemic. Libertarianism works best if every individual acts selfishly in their own interest, and the number of people who chose to _not_ get vaccinated _against_ their own best interest showed me the folly of treating individual choice as paramount concern to any policy discussion.
  - origin_path 4y ago
    They think it's for their own best interest, and who are you to say otherwise? You think the CDC is a trustworthy neutral third party in such matters?
    - syntheticcdo 4y ago
      Yes.
js2 4y ago
The ultra-Orthodox Jews in Rockland are wrong. They just are. I'm Jewish. Judaism places the value of life above all else (Pikuach Nefesh). There's 613 commandments that guide an Orthodox Jew's life and you are commanded to break virtually all of them to preserve life. Vaccines are life preserving. By what interpretation of Judaism they can refuse vaccination, I cannot imagine. At least that's my understanding of Judaism and how it was taught to me.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  That's how it was taught to me as well. For people unfamiliar with the different Jewish movements: Rockland county is overwhelmingly Orthodox, specifically Hasidic. The Hasidim are a modern conservative interpretation of Judaism: it didn't coalesce until the 18th century. If I was going to be disparaging, I'd say that their closest Christian analogue is the nakedly revisionist evangelical Christianity of the the American 1970s and forwards.
  - corrral 4y ago
    > If I was going to be disparaging, I'd say that their closest Christian analogue is the nakedly revisionist evangelical Christianity of the the American 1970s and forwards. I think the current strain, as far as Biblical interpretation is concerned, goes back to Darby's crappy-but-popular 1909 Bible, incorporating extensive same-page notes from Darby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible The 70s are just when the GOP's plan to sell itself to evangelicals, on social issues, as a deliberate ploy to capture them as a constituency to support the rest of the GOP agenda, really started to take off.
    - speeder 4y ago
      Ooooh... I am a non-US christian and been trying to understand certain things, tracked down a lot of origins for some of the more heterodox (in my view) beliefs. But never had heard of this bible, despite SEEING that bible multiple times. After opening your link and reading more about it a lot of more things make sense and "clicked" into place.

CoastalCoder 4y ago

I'm torn on whether to see this as a problem that needs solving by people outside of those communities. I.e., the libertarian in me wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons. On the other hand, those communities aren't 100% insular from surrounding society. Maybe their lower vaccination rates increase the chances of spreading the virus to outsiders who can't be vaccinated, consume extra healthcare resources, and/or increase the odds of generating a new variant that current vaccines can't stop.

bobkazamakis 4y ago
>I.e., the libertarian in my wants to let each community make its own choices based on their values, and then live with the resulting pros / cons. Has the libertarian in you seen what happens when an area bans guns but the surrounding areas don't?
- nradov 4y ago
  Which areas have banned guns?
  - throwaway_4ever 4y ago
    OP is referring to a place like Chicago that has some of the strictest gun bans, is lambasted by conservative media, "look, gun bans but still high shootings," but generally fail to realize that Chicago is surrounded by areas with the loosest gun restrictions like next door Indiana. The guns just come right across state borders 5 miles away.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Guns are not banned in Chicago. There do have tighter restrictions than surrounding areas (and some of those restrictions may be unconstitutional), but many Chicagoans legally own guns. https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-306468736022 https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-chicago-gun-laws-30646...
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        They were for a very long time, but right-wing rhetoric takes decades to be updated. Most of it is recycled Ezra Pound/Eustace Mullins/John Birch shit.
      - throwaway_4ever 4y ago
        Is there a meaningful difference between ban and restriction? It seems pedantic. But maybe wrt specifically gun law there is a difference? I never implied all guns were banned in Chicago. "some of the strictest"
        yonaguska 4y ago
        Yes, a ban would mean you'd be a criminal by mere possession, while restrictions means you have to jump through lots of hoops in order to not be a criminal. You can legally conceal carry a gun in Chicago. And based on my conversations with several members of law enforcement as well as a few notable cases of self defense, you probably won't be charged if you have a strong self defense case, even if you happen to be unintentionally breaking a law. Such as the woman that shot a man trying to rob/rape her while she was waiting for the bus. She would have been carrying illegally by virtue of using public transit, but no charges were pressed.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    The Supreme Court for one.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
  What happens?
mmastrac 4y ago
Libertarianism always falters when it's up against one of the many commons we inhabit with our fellow humans. None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Libertarians believe (I know that's an impossible statement, they're too heterogeneous) that people should be liable for harm they do to others, so maybe that'd be grounds for a class action.
- scifibestfi 4y ago
  > None of the single-word -ism ideologies work because the world is just too complex for us to reduce to a single way of thinking. This shouldn't be a controversial comment. How could it even be argued otherwise?
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    The isms as points on the political compass are abstractions, they don't exist and the writings of anyone associated with them are always far more complex than the one-sentence summaries.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    Taoists may have a difference of opinion on the matter.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
namdnay 4y ago
The libertarian in me thinks that it’s unfair for a child to be crippled for life because of the imbecilic views of their parents. That’s where the “to each their own” philosophy breaks down for me - it assumes that children “belong” to their parents, and that it’s fair for them to have to shoulder the consequences of their parents’ decisions
- MomoXenosaga 4y ago
  There are children who can't be vaccinated because of medical complications. This is why we need herd immunity.
syntheticcdo 4y ago
Conversely, the libertarian in me essentially ceased to exist after personally witnessing the initial American response to the pandemic. Libertarianism works best if every individual acts selfishly in their own interest, and the number of people who chose to _not_ get vaccinated _against_ their own best interest showed me the folly of treating individual choice as paramount concern to any policy discussion.
- origin_path 4y ago
  They think it's for their own best interest, and who are you to say otherwise? You think the CDC is a trustworthy neutral third party in such matters?
  - syntheticcdo 4y ago
    Yes.

js2 4y ago

The ultra-Orthodox Jews in Rockland are wrong. They just are. I'm Jewish. Judaism places the value of life above all else (Pikuach Nefesh). There's 613 commandments that guide an Orthodox Jew's life and you are commanded to break virtually all of them to preserve life. Vaccines are life preserving. By what interpretation of Judaism they can refuse vaccination, I cannot imagine. At least that's my understanding of Judaism and how it was taught to me.

woodruffw 4y ago
That's how it was taught to me as well. For people unfamiliar with the different Jewish movements: Rockland county is overwhelmingly Orthodox, specifically Hasidic. The Hasidim are a modern conservative interpretation of Judaism: it didn't coalesce until the 18th century. If I was going to be disparaging, I'd say that their closest Christian analogue is the nakedly revisionist evangelical Christianity of the the American 1970s and forwards.
- corrral 4y ago
  > If I was going to be disparaging, I'd say that their closest Christian analogue is the nakedly revisionist evangelical Christianity of the the American 1970s and forwards. I think the current strain, as far as Biblical interpretation is concerned, goes back to Darby's crappy-but-popular 1909 Bible, incorporating extensive same-page notes from Darby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible The 70s are just when the GOP's plan to sell itself to evangelicals, on social issues, as a deliberate ploy to capture them as a constituency to support the rest of the GOP agenda, really started to take off.
  - speeder 4y ago
    Ooooh... I am a non-US christian and been trying to understand certain things, tracked down a lot of origins for some of the more heterodox (in my view) beliefs. But never had heard of this bible, despite SEEING that bible multiple times. After opening your link and reading more about it a lot of more things make sense and "clicked" into place.