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Your comment has not contributed anything. Which of those many categories do you think crypto falls within? For example, foreign currency is not a security, a

Your comment has not contributed anything. Which of those many categories do you think crypto falls within? For example, foreign currency is not a security, and an intuitive stance would be that crypto is far closer to foreign currency than it is to stocks. Other sources have a more useful definition in my opinion [1]: > Firstly, a security is simply a financial instrument that represents a specific ownership position in either a corporation, a creditor related to a governmental body, a publicly traded corporation, or rights to ownership as represented by an option. The security must represent some type of financial value. Securities are generally categorised as either debts or equities, with a debt security indicating money that has been borrowed and must be repaid. Under this definition, it is hard to see how the average "boring" cryptocurrency is a security. [1] https://www.onefinancialmarkets.com/securities-vs-forex https://www.onefinancialmarkets.com/securities-vs-forex

dataflow 4y ago
> The security must represent some type of financial value This is probably going to be the point of contention. There's no shortage of people wanting to argue Bitcoin really does have financial value, cures cancer, etc...
westurner 4y ago
Is "must be an agreement for future performance" a fair first test of whether something is a securities contract? 1) If there is no contractual agreement for future performance, it cannot be a securities contract (a "security"). That we can test before applying 2) the Howey Test, and then 3) assessing whether it's a Payment, Utility, Asset, or Hybrid coin/token From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._W._J._Howey_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._W._J._Howey_Co. : > "In other words, an investment contract for purposes of the Securities Act means a contract, transaction or scheme whereby a person invests his money in a common enterprise and is led to expect profits solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party, it being immaterial whether the shares in the enterprise are evidenced by formal certificates or by nominal interests in the physical assets employed in the enterprise."[1] > "The test is whether the scheme involves an investment of money in a common enterprise with profits to come solely from the efforts of others. If that test be satisfied, it is immaterial whether the enterprise is speculative or non-speculative or whether there is a sale of property with or without intrinsic value."[1] Collectible coins, trading cards, beanie babies, real estate, and rare earth commodities, for example, are not securities per US securities law. Do these things fail a hypothetical and hopefully helpful "must be an agreement for future performance" litmus test for whether a thing is a security per US case law precedent? What must be fed into the FTC CAT is a different set of policies. From "Guidelines for enquiries regarding the regulatory framework for ICOs [pdf]" (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16406967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16406967 https://westurner.github.io/hnlog/#comment-16407277 https://westurner.github.io/hnlog/#comment-16407277 : > This is a helpful table indicating whether a Payment, Utility, Asset, or Hybrid coin/token: is a security, qualifies under Swiss AML payment law. > The "Minimum information requirements for ICO enquiries" appendix seems like a good set of questions for evaluating ICOs. Are there other good questions to ask when considering whether to invest in a Payment, Utility, Asset, or Hybrid ICO? > Are US regulations different from these clear and helpful regulatory guidelines for ICOs in Switzerland?
- westurner 4y ago
  As well, do investors have any responsibility for evaluating written agreements for future performance before investing? Does a person have the responsibility of evaluating contracts before entering into them; for example, with the belief that it's a securities agreement for future performance? What burden of responsibility has a securities investor? Does that business sell any registered securities at all? Why did you think they were selling you a security? Were you presented with a shareholders agreement? A securities agreement? Any sort written contract? Why did you think you were entering into a securities contract if there was no contract?
  - westurner 4y ago
    If someone makes hopeful, pumping, forward-looking statements, does that obligate them to perform? When does the Statute of Frauds apply to phantom contractual agreements for future performance? Statute of Frauds: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/statute-of-frauds.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/statute-of-frauds.asp : > The statute of frauds (SOF) is a legal concept that requires certain types of contracts to be executed in writing. The statute covers contracts for the sale of land, agreements involving goods worth over $500, and contracts lasting one year or more. > The statute of frauds was adopted in the U.S. primarily as a common law concept—that is, as unwritten law. However, it has since been formalized by statutes in certain jurisdictions, such as in most states. In a breach of contract case where the statute of frauds applies, the defendant may raise it as a defense.* Indeed, they often must do so affirmatively for the defense to be valid. In such a case, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. The plaintiff must establish that a valid contract was indeed in existence. Statute of Frauds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_frauds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_frauds Q: When should you check for a contractual agreement for future performance, for future returns? A: At least before you give more than $500.
- westurner 4y ago
  In the US, cryptoasset exchanges have gained specific legal approval from each and every state where those assets are listed for sale. What process does your state have for approving assets for listing by cryptoasset exchanges? When or why does a state reject a cryptoasset exchange's application to list a cryptoasset?
deleted 4y ago
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dataflow 4y ago

> The security must represent some type of financial value This is probably going to be the point of contention. There's no shortage of people wanting to argue Bitcoin really does have financial value, cures cancer, etc...

westurner 4y ago

Is "must be an agreement for future performance" a fair first test of whether something is a securities contract? 1) If there is no contractual agreement for future performance, it cannot be a securities contract (a "security"). That we can test before applying 2) the Howey Test, and then 3) assessing whether it's a Payment, Utility, Asset, or Hybrid coin/token From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._W._J._Howey_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._W._J._Howey_Co. : > "In other words, an investment contract for purposes of the Securities Act means a contract, transaction or scheme whereby a person invests his money in a common enterprise and is led to expect profits solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party, it being immaterial whether the shares in the enterprise are evidenced by formal certificates or by nominal interests in the physical assets employed in the enterprise."[1] > "The test is whether the scheme involves an investment of money in a common enterprise with profits to come solely from the efforts of others. If that test be satisfied, it is immaterial whether the enterprise is speculative or non-speculative or whether there is a sale of property with or without intrinsic value."[1] Collectible coins, trading cards, beanie babies, real estate, and rare earth commodities, for example, are not securities per US securities law. Do these things fail a hypothetical and hopefully helpful "must be an agreement for future performance" litmus test for whether a thing is a security per US case law precedent? What must be fed into the FTC CAT is a different set of policies. From "Guidelines for enquiries regarding the regulatory framework for ICOs [pdf]" (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16406967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16406967 https://westurner.github.io/hnlog/#comment-16407277 https://westurner.github.io/hnlog/#comment-16407277 : > This is a helpful table indicating whether a Payment, Utility, Asset, or Hybrid coin/token: is a security, qualifies under Swiss AML payment law. > The "Minimum information requirements for ICO enquiries" appendix seems like a good set of questions for evaluating ICOs. Are there other good questions to ask when considering whether to invest in a Payment, Utility, Asset, or Hybrid ICO? > Are US regulations different from these clear and helpful regulatory guidelines for ICOs in Switzerland?

westurner 4y ago
As well, do investors have any responsibility for evaluating written agreements for future performance before investing? Does a person have the responsibility of evaluating contracts before entering into them; for example, with the belief that it's a securities agreement for future performance? What burden of responsibility has a securities investor? Does that business sell any registered securities at all? Why did you think they were selling you a security? Were you presented with a shareholders agreement? A securities agreement? Any sort written contract? Why did you think you were entering into a securities contract if there was no contract?
- westurner 4y ago
  If someone makes hopeful, pumping, forward-looking statements, does that obligate them to perform? When does the Statute of Frauds apply to phantom contractual agreements for future performance? Statute of Frauds: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/statute-of-frauds.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/statute-of-frauds.asp : > The statute of frauds (SOF) is a legal concept that requires certain types of contracts to be executed in writing. The statute covers contracts for the sale of land, agreements involving goods worth over $500, and contracts lasting one year or more. > The statute of frauds was adopted in the U.S. primarily as a common law concept—that is, as unwritten law. However, it has since been formalized by statutes in certain jurisdictions, such as in most states. In a breach of contract case where the statute of frauds applies, the defendant may raise it as a defense.* Indeed, they often must do so affirmatively for the defense to be valid. In such a case, the burden of proof is on the plaintiff. The plaintiff must establish that a valid contract was indeed in existence. Statute of Frauds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_frauds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_frauds Q: When should you check for a contractual agreement for future performance, for future returns? A: At least before you give more than $500.
westurner 4y ago
In the US, cryptoasset exchanges have gained specific legal approval from each and every state where those assets are listed for sale. What process does your state have for approving assets for listing by cryptoasset exchanges? When or why does a state reject a cryptoasset exchange's application to list a cryptoasset?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]