5 ms·

And if we hadn't done that stuff, we would have seen even more than the 1M deaths we did experience. Things could have gotten significantly worse as the hospita

And if we hadn't done that stuff, we would have seen even more than the 1M deaths we did experience. Things could have gotten significantly worse as the hospitals filled up and space was not available for Covid patients and all the other people with heart attacks and other medical conditions. Even as it is, the medical staff have been overworked and extremely stressed. They've been quitting the medical field in very high numbers: https://morningconsult.com/2021/10/04/health-care-workers-series-part-2-workforce/ https://morningconsult.com/2021/10/04/health-care-workers-se... Yes, because of the lockdown, we have paid a high price, but don't just dismiss the higher price we would have paid if no mitigations had been attempted.

WASDx 4y ago
Also known as the preparedness paradox.
nradov 4y ago
Wrong. Most of the non-pharmaceutical interventions were pointless pandemic theater. You can find examples of other countries that took less extreme measures and still had lower death rates.
- jamiek88 4y ago
  Please name them.
- fnord123 4y ago
  Name two countries/areas that you want to use as an example in this argument. Otherwise if anyone else gives a counterexample you can easily move goalposts on them.
  - carlivar 4y ago
    That's pretty easy. Sweden is the poster child of a rational covid19 response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_... Sweden deaths per million: 1834 U.S. deaths per million: 3043 However you can also choose various European countries that avoided masking children and minimized school disruption. France and UK for starters, but also all the Nordic countries. Sweden being quite different from the other Nordic countries, but all of them being consistent in avoiding school disruption or masking children. Most of Europe does not recommend vaccinating young children either. France deaths per million: 2242 Denmark deaths per million: 1122
    - Tade0 4y ago
      Sweden had a higher death rate than its neighbours combined. Also just like Denmark no very large, densely populated cities. Paris proper is 2mln people squeezed into a 100km^2 city. Greater Paris is 10mln at a definitely urban density. It's no wonder they had larger death rates and this is a apples to oranges comparison.
    - otikik 4y ago
      All the European countries that you listed have good public heath care systems, especially when compared with the US situation. That’s the main reason they had less deaths per capita, not their lockdown policies.
    - KuiN 4y ago
      The UK absolutely required children to wear masks in schools in various situations. Schools were closed for significant periods of time as well.
  - ccn0p 4y ago
    How about two states? As mentioned above, Florida and California couldn't be further from each other in terms of policy and response, yet age-adjusted mortality was about the same. [1] https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-adjusted-covid-deaths/ https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-...
ETH_start 4y ago
Absent a feasible zero-COVID strategy, which for most countries was never in the books due to their geographical situation, lockdowns have been found to have virtually no impact on reducing the spread of COVID. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13571516.2021.1976051 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13571516.2021.19... https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature... Lockdowns have devasted education: https://www.economist.com/international/2022/07/07/covid-learning-loss-has-been-a-global-disaster https://www.economist.com/international/2022/07/07/covid-lea... The cost to lifetime earnings is estimated to be $17 trillion: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/12/06/learning-losses-from-covid-19-could-cost-this-generation-of-students-close-to-17-trillion-in-lifetime-earnings https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/12/06/l... Which will massively exacerbate poverty and all of its associated illnesses. The education losses have been worst for the poor: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/05/remote-learning-likely-widened-racial-economic-achievement-gap/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/05/remote-learni... Social distancing and other COVID control measures, which became mandatory with lockdowns, have been associated with a surge in childhood obesity: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a3.htm?s_cid=mm7037a3_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a3.htm?s_cid=mm... And a decline in children's IQ: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34401887/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34401887/ 97 million more people are estimated to be poverty due to the social reaction to COVID, the most drastic and disruptive of which were lockdowns: https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/updated-estimates-impact-covid-19-global-poverty-turning-corner-pandemic-2021 https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/updated-estimates-impac... It turns out following the lead of an authoritarian communist state on the COVID response, by totally abrogating civil liberties with community quarantines, i.e. lockdowns, wasn't a great idea. As for voluntary social distancing, it has been found to impose more measurable costs for 89% of the population than it reduces through mitigating risks of contracting COVID.
- icelancer 4y ago
  Lockdown-type measures will do more long-term damage to the poor and exacerbate socio-economic inequality than COVID, the actual disease, ever could. Truly the "it is what it is" method of governance.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
carlivar 4y ago
> if we hadn't done that stuff, we would have seen even more than the 1M deaths we did experience How much more? And how would that increase compare to the drug overdoses and other mental health related deaths that lockdowns caused? What's the control group you're using to make your claim?
ccn0p 4y ago
"It could have been much worse" seems to be a pretty common response to a few things these days. And even that single survey you point to... Many were seeking more money or career growth, or were laid off. California and Florida couldn't have been further from each other in terms of policy and response, yet the age-adjusted mortalities weren't that far apart [1]. [1] https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-adjusted-covid-deaths/ https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-...

WASDx 4y ago

Also known as the preparedness paradox.

nradov 4y ago

Wrong. Most of the non-pharmaceutical interventions were pointless pandemic theater. You can find examples of other countries that took less extreme measures and still had lower death rates.

jamiek88 4y ago
Please name them.
fnord123 4y ago
Name two countries/areas that you want to use as an example in this argument. Otherwise if anyone else gives a counterexample you can easily move goalposts on them.
- carlivar 4y ago
  That's pretty easy. Sweden is the poster child of a rational covid19 response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_... Sweden deaths per million: 1834 U.S. deaths per million: 3043 However you can also choose various European countries that avoided masking children and minimized school disruption. France and UK for starters, but also all the Nordic countries. Sweden being quite different from the other Nordic countries, but all of them being consistent in avoiding school disruption or masking children. Most of Europe does not recommend vaccinating young children either. France deaths per million: 2242 Denmark deaths per million: 1122
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Sweden had a higher death rate than its neighbours combined. Also just like Denmark no very large, densely populated cities. Paris proper is 2mln people squeezed into a 100km^2 city. Greater Paris is 10mln at a definitely urban density. It's no wonder they had larger death rates and this is a apples to oranges comparison.
  - otikik 4y ago
    All the European countries that you listed have good public heath care systems, especially when compared with the US situation. That’s the main reason they had less deaths per capita, not their lockdown policies.
  - KuiN 4y ago
    The UK absolutely required children to wear masks in schools in various situations. Schools were closed for significant periods of time as well.
- ccn0p 4y ago
  How about two states? As mentioned above, Florida and California couldn't be further from each other in terms of policy and response, yet age-adjusted mortality was about the same. [1] https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-adjusted-covid-deaths/ https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-...

ETH_start 4y ago

Absent a feasible zero-COVID strategy, which for most countries was never in the books due to their geographical situation, lockdowns have been found to have virtually no impact on reducing the spread of COVID. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13571516.2021.1976051 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13571516.2021.19... https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature... Lockdowns have devasted education: https://www.economist.com/international/2022/07/07/covid-learning-loss-has-been-a-global-disaster https://www.economist.com/international/2022/07/07/covid-lea... The cost to lifetime earnings is estimated to be $17 trillion: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/12/06/learning-losses-from-covid-19-could-cost-this-generation-of-students-close-to-17-trillion-in-lifetime-earnings https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2021/12/06/l... Which will massively exacerbate poverty and all of its associated illnesses. The education losses have been worst for the poor: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/05/remote-learning-likely-widened-racial-economic-achievement-gap/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/05/remote-learni... Social distancing and other COVID control measures, which became mandatory with lockdowns, have been associated with a surge in childhood obesity: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a3.htm?s_cid=mm7037a3_w https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a3.htm?s_cid=mm... And a decline in children's IQ: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34401887/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34401887/ 97 million more people are estimated to be poverty due to the social reaction to COVID, the most drastic and disruptive of which were lockdowns: https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/updated-estimates-impact-covid-19-global-poverty-turning-corner-pandemic-2021 https://blogs.worldbank.org/opendata/updated-estimates-impac... It turns out following the lead of an authoritarian communist state on the COVID response, by totally abrogating civil liberties with community quarantines, i.e. lockdowns, wasn't a great idea. As for voluntary social distancing, it has been found to impose more measurable costs for 89% of the population than it reduces through mitigating risks of contracting COVID.

icelancer 4y ago
Lockdown-type measures will do more long-term damage to the poor and exacerbate socio-economic inequality than COVID, the actual disease, ever could. Truly the "it is what it is" method of governance.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

carlivar 4y ago

> if we hadn't done that stuff, we would have seen even more than the 1M deaths we did experience How much more? And how would that increase compare to the drug overdoses and other mental health related deaths that lockdowns caused? What's the control group you're using to make your claim?

ccn0p 4y ago

"It could have been much worse" seems to be a pretty common response to a few things these days. And even that single survey you point to... Many were seeking more money or career growth, or were laid off. California and Florida couldn't have been further from each other in terms of policy and response, yet the age-adjusted mortalities weren't that far apart [1]. [1] https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-adjusted-covid-deaths/ https://www.bioinformaticscro.com/blog/states-ranked-by-age-...