10 ms·

You know how, during a big programming project, you have to keep the devs from going "this codebase has a lot of technical debt, let's rebuild the whole thing u

You know how, during a big programming project, you have to keep the devs from going "this codebase has a lot of technical debt, let's rebuild the whole thing using Rust and Kubernetes and Deno and move the hosting to Azure and switch databases and use microservices and..."? Designers are exactly the same way. Just as technical fiddling is fun and interesting, making new designs from scratch is just as fun and interesting. And, just as fixing bugs is tedious and boring, tweaking designs is tedious and boring. I've been on both sides for a lot of years, and I have to keep a sharp eye on myself to keep from spinning my wheels on distractions. Even the Pope had to keep Michelangelo focused on the Sistine Chapel and not wander off to work on his tomb.

m463 4y ago
I wonder how you judge the tipping point? "Why do it in C when assembly language has been working so well for years?"
- kh_hk 4y ago
  Following through the example, if assembly language works well, then there's no justification to do it in C. One needs to find (valid) reasons to justify such decisions.
- slingnow 4y ago
  The tipping point would be when you can come up with a compelling answer for the question you laid out. You don't just rewrite it in C as a reflex to that question.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
eddd-ddde 4y ago
This makes a lot of sense, I feel like this is more of a management issue, it should be the responsibility of the manager to keep everyone working on what is initially planned.
- romanows 4y ago
  They kind of addressed this by saying that they try to keep management billing hours quite low. Perhaps this low percentage would have been "enough" had the size of the project been bigger? Although, I think it'd be fair to argue that the designers should have been "trained" (i.e., with time not billed as "management" for a client's project) to stick to the project scope a bit better. I get it though: my only experience has been with internal, full-time employees, and I see is given a fair amount of latitude to do exciting things and to experience small failures. It's a different mindset for external contractors, it seems.
  - Beldin 4y ago
    The agency would normally allocate 5% of the budget to management, but Isaac made the decision (since the budget was so small) to completely eliminate that. The budget ballooned to 6x its planned size and the management allocation was the same percentage of that as of the original budget: 0%. Rather ironic, since that latter budget probably is sufficiently large not to eliminate management completely. (~$350 vs ~$2000 for mgmt)
dieselgate 4y ago
Yeah I sort of rolled my eyes at all the logo redesigns (especially as these seem to have come first in the process) but it seems Author was fine with it. It’s an impressive read because Author (and Isaac to some degree) seem quite even keeled in dealing with everything.
- tmp_anon_22 4y ago
  > seem quite even keeled in dealing with everything I'm guessing the money they lost in this endeavor didn't materially impact them.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    I know we don't know costs, but per the article it's about a month's revenue, and I assume it's pretty profitable. Not the first hire either, so the difference between 7k and 46k total over several months is not a lot in a way.
    - mardifoufs 4y ago
      I think we do know costs in this case! The author is very open about the finances of his products. And in this case, while he did start generating profits from tinypilot in 2021, those were only around 17-18k$ IIRC. So this is still a massive expense for the business I'd guess!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
latortuga 4y ago
I was ready to fire the agency the moment the author mentioned they were going off script and building whatever they wanted. This was a huge, blinking red flag for me. Why would you keep paying someone when they're doing work you didn't ask for, doing work that doesn't align with your goals, and ignoring what you say?
- hnbad 4y ago
  If it's not part of the agreed upon scope and they didn't ask for permission, I see no obligation to pay them. They can put the logo in context, sure, but if they end up spending more time on the sketches for that context than the logo itself, that isn't what you ordered.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  I call this the being too nice mistake. It is like the customer that would watch an employee spit in their food and say thanks to them. Effective leaders do not fear confrontation.
  - onionisafruit 4y ago
    In this case it might be a case of being intimidated by a big agency. Isaac telling him that he was their smallest client had a "you're lucky we are willing to work for you" feel.
    - Domenic_S 4y ago
      > I thought I’d enjoy service normally reserved for large companies despite my limited budget. Sounds like that's exactly what he got, tbh.
    - InspClouseau 4y ago
      This feels even more dubious because if I figured out the correct company, they're fishing in the freelancer threads quite a lot. They know what they're offering to HN readers.
EveYoung 4y ago
Even the Pope had to keep Michelangelo focused on the Sistine Chapel and not wander off to work on his tomb. Not that it matters in this context but wasn't it the other way around? Didn't Donato Bramante try to sabotage Michelangelo by convincing Pope Julius II to give him the Sistine Chapel comission, assuming that Michelangelo would fail (due to his lack of experience in fresco painting) and ruin his reputation in the process? So Donato Bramante was more a consultant recommending an overpaid design agency hoping to benefit from their failure.
- deltarholamda 4y ago
  I was actually thinking of "The Agony and the Ecstasy," which is on somewhat shaky historical accuracy footing. Rex Harrison whacking Charlton Heston with a stick because he's slacking on the ceiling is how all project managers should handle both devs and creatives. I hear that's how Larry Ellison does it.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    We’ve heard of Scrum. Now comes Stick
einpoklum 4y ago
> a lot of technical debt ... let's rebuild the whole thing using Rust and Kubernetes and Deno and move the hosting to Azure etc. For me, I'm the dev who says: "This codebase has a lot of technical debt. Let's get rid of all of the containers and VMs and kubernetes and artificial servicification, take it off the cloud, and refactor it into smaller programs which do the work efficiently and which can be built and run on basically any machine(s) and cooperate peacefully."
- ticviking 4y ago
  I wish I knew more devs like you. My life would be so much easier if we could all think like this.
- hgomersall 4y ago
  But definitely rewrite it in rust ;)
- fsniper 4y ago
  Oh not only a rewrite, but also a re-architecture. What could go wrong?
  - einpoklum 4y ago
    1. Things have already gone wrong... 2. I guess I would add "slowly and carefully".
  - vanviegen 4y ago
    Probably a lot less than when making the move in the other direction.
  - simmerup 4y ago
    Well considering theyre removing tools like kubernetes but keeping the micro service architecture, probably a ton. All the problems Kubernetes and the like solve they’d have to rediscover one by one
- cozos 4y ago
  > which can be built and run on basically any machine(s) So like containers?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hinkley 4y ago
I used to think this whole pattern was just Chasing the Shiny with a heavy dose of aversion, but something I noticed was that on a redesign, the management tends to give you the benefit of the doubt for a while. There’s a brief period where everything is easier socially before the ugliness starts up again. Getting a redesign approved can be the difference between having a long project on your resume and people asking you why you job hopped so much.
designium 4y ago
I think it's important to establish clear goals before reaching out to freelancers and agencies. The agenda from each one is different than yours. I learned to get the team focus by writing a brief (commonly used for Brand Managers in big companies) to keep focus on the deliverables. That helps to avoid these type of issues.
andrepd 4y ago
> Designers are exactly the same way. Just as technical fiddling is fun and interesting, making new designs from scratch is just as fun and interesting. And, just as fixing bugs is tedious and boring, tweaking designs is tedious and boring. My god, that explains why modern designs and user interfaces suck so much. That, and the fact that many designers work off their gut feelings and personal subjective preferences, rather than systematic and evidence-based study.
- thrdbndndn 4y ago
  Remembered me of a rumor (or fact?) that almost all Windows 10/11 designers use Mac. And it shows: the end results broke all the UX Windows users were used to.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    Graphic design has been a Mac stronghold for basically forever. I remember them being the only exception to the Windows only” rules most companies had for a very long time. Also as a Windows->Mac switcher myself, I’m not sure breaking Windows UX is a bad thing.
    - Joker_vD 4y ago
      It is. If I didn't like Windows UX, I'd switch to something else on my own, thank you very much.
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        Don't you wish there was a vibrant ecosystem of commercial OSes, each providing a different choice regarding the UX or other aspect you want to prioritize, each being financially viable based on their merits and not getting crushed by a monopolistic gorilla ? You'd have options to go to when Microsoft makes choices you don't agree with. I sure wish we were in that world.
        4y ago
totallyblasted 4y ago
I love fixing bugs. Sometimes more than writing new things. Seeing the system health increase as I delete old code, add new tests, and increase performance is very satisfying.
- fvold 4y ago
  I hate fixing bugs, but I love having fixed them more. It's the same sort of relationship I have with playing hard games, like Elden Ring, or whatever. The actual search for the problem, and sometimes even the implementation of the fix, can be really frustrating, but that is a vital part in the absolutely ecstatic feeling I get from having actually Fixed The Thing.
- deltarholamda 4y ago
  You are a blessed, holy person. Not even joking a little bit. It's people like you that keep the world ticking over.
PontifexMinimus 4y ago
> have to keep the devs from going "this codebase has a lot of technical debt, let's rebuild the whole thing using Rust and Kubernetes and Deno and move the hosting to Azure and switch databases and use microservices and..."? Also known as the "oh look, a shiny thing" development paradigm.
oxff 4y ago
The agency was a JS abusing their client so idk why you would just lash out at new great technologies when they weren't part of this.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  It's a pet peeve and a common problem in software development, where developers don't want to do the work that is asked of them because it's not challenging enough (yay another REST API in front of a database), so they add complexity themselves - new, more difficult languages like Rust or Scala (not as much of an issue anymore I think), excessively complex architectures like microservices, DIY infrastructure configuration like k8s, etc. See also magpie developers. It's not that the new technologies are not great, it's just that in most cases it's not what a client needs, but what the developers want to do. They will have a solution and look for a problem to match. I mean I'm not innocent of that, I'm looking left and right for problems where I could use Go to solve them with because I enjoy it. But I am aware of the risks. Anyway the comparison is apt because it happens with developers; I've seen it happen firsthand at multiple projects, and in almost ALL of those, after the consultants left, the company moved back to their own technology, picked something off-the-shelf, or did yet another rebuild.
- suction 4y ago
  I think the comment was fair; Too often have I witnessed clueless and/or conniving salespeople recommend businesses to move onto Azure or other cloud services when there was very little to gain from it, yet it meant that the cost compared to hosting their very simple ERP software on metal would bankrupt them in the first bad month.

m463 4y ago

I wonder how you judge the tipping point? "Why do it in C when assembly language has been working so well for years?"

kh_hk 4y ago
Following through the example, if assembly language works well, then there's no justification to do it in C. One needs to find (valid) reasons to justify such decisions.
slingnow 4y ago
The tipping point would be when you can come up with a compelling answer for the question you laid out. You don't just rewrite it in C as a reflex to that question.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

eddd-ddde 4y ago

This makes a lot of sense, I feel like this is more of a management issue, it should be the responsibility of the manager to keep everyone working on what is initially planned.

romanows 4y ago
They kind of addressed this by saying that they try to keep management billing hours quite low. Perhaps this low percentage would have been "enough" had the size of the project been bigger? Although, I think it'd be fair to argue that the designers should have been "trained" (i.e., with time not billed as "management" for a client's project) to stick to the project scope a bit better. I get it though: my only experience has been with internal, full-time employees, and I see is given a fair amount of latitude to do exciting things and to experience small failures. It's a different mindset for external contractors, it seems.
- Beldin 4y ago
  The agency would normally allocate 5% of the budget to management, but Isaac made the decision (since the budget was so small) to completely eliminate that. The budget ballooned to 6x its planned size and the management allocation was the same percentage of that as of the original budget: 0%. Rather ironic, since that latter budget probably is sufficiently large not to eliminate management completely. (~$350 vs ~$2000 for mgmt)

dieselgate 4y ago

Yeah I sort of rolled my eyes at all the logo redesigns (especially as these seem to have come first in the process) but it seems Author was fine with it. It’s an impressive read because Author (and Isaac to some degree) seem quite even keeled in dealing with everything.

tmp_anon_22 4y ago
> seem quite even keeled in dealing with everything I'm guessing the money they lost in this endeavor didn't materially impact them.
- OJFord 4y ago
  I know we don't know costs, but per the article it's about a month's revenue, and I assume it's pretty profitable. Not the first hire either, so the difference between 7k and 46k total over several months is not a lot in a way.
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    I think we do know costs in this case! The author is very open about the finances of his products. And in this case, while he did start generating profits from tinypilot in 2021, those were only around 17-18k$ IIRC. So this is still a massive expense for the business I'd guess!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

latortuga 4y ago

I was ready to fire the agency the moment the author mentioned they were going off script and building whatever they wanted. This was a huge, blinking red flag for me. Why would you keep paying someone when they're doing work you didn't ask for, doing work that doesn't align with your goals, and ignoring what you say?

hnbad 4y ago
If it's not part of the agreed upon scope and they didn't ask for permission, I see no obligation to pay them. They can put the logo in context, sure, but if they end up spending more time on the sketches for that context than the logo itself, that isn't what you ordered.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
encryptluks2 4y ago
I call this the being too nice mistake. It is like the customer that would watch an employee spit in their food and say thanks to them. Effective leaders do not fear confrontation.
- onionisafruit 4y ago
  In this case it might be a case of being intimidated by a big agency. Isaac telling him that he was their smallest client had a "you're lucky we are willing to work for you" feel.
  - Domenic_S 4y ago
    > I thought I’d enjoy service normally reserved for large companies despite my limited budget. Sounds like that's exactly what he got, tbh.
  - InspClouseau 4y ago
    This feels even more dubious because if I figured out the correct company, they're fishing in the freelancer threads quite a lot. They know what they're offering to HN readers.

EveYoung 4y ago

Even the Pope had to keep Michelangelo focused on the Sistine Chapel and not wander off to work on his tomb. Not that it matters in this context but wasn't it the other way around? Didn't Donato Bramante try to sabotage Michelangelo by convincing Pope Julius II to give him the Sistine Chapel comission, assuming that Michelangelo would fail (due to his lack of experience in fresco painting) and ruin his reputation in the process? So Donato Bramante was more a consultant recommending an overpaid design agency hoping to benefit from their failure.

deltarholamda 4y ago
I was actually thinking of "The Agony and the Ecstasy," which is on somewhat shaky historical accuracy footing. Rex Harrison whacking Charlton Heston with a stick because he's slacking on the ceiling is how all project managers should handle both devs and creatives. I hear that's how Larry Ellison does it.
- FredPret 4y ago
  We’ve heard of Scrum. Now comes Stick

einpoklum 4y ago

> a lot of technical debt ... let's rebuild the whole thing using Rust and Kubernetes and Deno and move the hosting to Azure etc. For me, I'm the dev who says: "This codebase has a lot of technical debt. Let's get rid of all of the containers and VMs and kubernetes and artificial servicification, take it off the cloud, and refactor it into smaller programs which do the work efficiently and which can be built and run on basically any machine(s) and cooperate peacefully."

ticviking 4y ago
I wish I knew more devs like you. My life would be so much easier if we could all think like this.
hgomersall 4y ago
But definitely rewrite it in rust ;)
fsniper 4y ago
Oh not only a rewrite, but also a re-architecture. What could go wrong?
- einpoklum 4y ago
  1. Things have already gone wrong... 2. I guess I would add "slowly and carefully".
- vanviegen 4y ago
  Probably a lot less than when making the move in the other direction.
- simmerup 4y ago
  Well considering theyre removing tools like kubernetes but keeping the micro service architecture, probably a ton. All the problems Kubernetes and the like solve they’d have to rediscover one by one
cozos 4y ago
> which can be built and run on basically any machine(s) So like containers?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hinkley 4y ago

I used to think this whole pattern was just Chasing the Shiny with a heavy dose of aversion, but something I noticed was that on a redesign, the management tends to give you the benefit of the doubt for a while. There’s a brief period where everything is easier socially before the ugliness starts up again. Getting a redesign approved can be the difference between having a long project on your resume and people asking you why you job hopped so much.

designium 4y ago

I think it's important to establish clear goals before reaching out to freelancers and agencies. The agenda from each one is different than yours. I learned to get the team focus by writing a brief (commonly used for Brand Managers in big companies) to keep focus on the deliverables. That helps to avoid these type of issues.

andrepd 4y ago

> Designers are exactly the same way. Just as technical fiddling is fun and interesting, making new designs from scratch is just as fun and interesting. And, just as fixing bugs is tedious and boring, tweaking designs is tedious and boring. My god, that explains why modern designs and user interfaces suck so much. That, and the fact that many designers work off their gut feelings and personal subjective preferences, rather than systematic and evidence-based study.

thrdbndndn 4y ago
Remembered me of a rumor (or fact?) that almost all Windows 10/11 designers use Mac. And it shows: the end results broke all the UX Windows users were used to.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Graphic design has been a Mac stronghold for basically forever. I remember them being the only exception to the Windows only” rules most companies had for a very long time. Also as a Windows->Mac switcher myself, I’m not sure breaking Windows UX is a bad thing.
  - Joker_vD 4y ago
    It is. If I didn't like Windows UX, I'd switch to something else on my own, thank you very much.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      Don't you wish there was a vibrant ecosystem of commercial OSes, each providing a different choice regarding the UX or other aspect you want to prioritize, each being financially viable based on their merits and not getting crushed by a monopolistic gorilla ? You'd have options to go to when Microsoft makes choices you don't agree with. I sure wish we were in that world.
      - 4y ago

totallyblasted 4y ago

I love fixing bugs. Sometimes more than writing new things. Seeing the system health increase as I delete old code, add new tests, and increase performance is very satisfying.

fvold 4y ago
I hate fixing bugs, but I love having fixed them more. It's the same sort of relationship I have with playing hard games, like Elden Ring, or whatever. The actual search for the problem, and sometimes even the implementation of the fix, can be really frustrating, but that is a vital part in the absolutely ecstatic feeling I get from having actually Fixed The Thing.
deltarholamda 4y ago
You are a blessed, holy person. Not even joking a little bit. It's people like you that keep the world ticking over.

PontifexMinimus 4y ago

> have to keep the devs from going "this codebase has a lot of technical debt, let's rebuild the whole thing using Rust and Kubernetes and Deno and move the hosting to Azure and switch databases and use microservices and..."? Also known as the "oh look, a shiny thing" development paradigm.

oxff 4y ago

The agency was a JS abusing their client so idk why you would just lash out at new great technologies when they weren't part of this.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
It's a pet peeve and a common problem in software development, where developers don't want to do the work that is asked of them because it's not challenging enough (yay another REST API in front of a database), so they add complexity themselves - new, more difficult languages like Rust or Scala (not as much of an issue anymore I think), excessively complex architectures like microservices, DIY infrastructure configuration like k8s, etc. See also magpie developers. It's not that the new technologies are not great, it's just that in most cases it's not what a client needs, but what the developers want to do. They will have a solution and look for a problem to match. I mean I'm not innocent of that, I'm looking left and right for problems where I could use Go to solve them with because I enjoy it. But I am aware of the risks. Anyway the comparison is apt because it happens with developers; I've seen it happen firsthand at multiple projects, and in almost ALL of those, after the consultants left, the company moved back to their own technology, picked something off-the-shelf, or did yet another rebuild.
suction 4y ago
I think the comment was fair; Too often have I witnessed clueless and/or conniving salespeople recommend businesses to move onto Azure or other cloud services when there was very little to gain from it, yet it meant that the cost compared to hosting their very simple ERP software on metal would bankrupt them in the first bad month.