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If that’s really how it rolls out, doesn’t it also mean that Safari wasn’t viable on itself and nobody wanted to use it in the first place ? Apple is no underd

If that’s really how it rolls out, doesn’t it also mean that Safari wasn’t viable on itself and nobody wanted to use it in the first place ? Apple is no underdog anymore, if their browser couldn‘t compete on its own merit I won’t be crying a river over it. Firefox, while mired with its own problems, is another story; but I don’t see Mozilla losing from this decision.

KerrAvon 4y ago
“This website only works on Chrome.”
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  C-w
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  This is a serious issue that need to be solved directly, and not by carving out weird protected turfs for other monopolistic companies. In the current situation a ton of websites are already bailing out and shoving mobile apps to their users instead of actually addressing Safari.
  - d12bb 4y ago
    I like apps. Native look&feel, less energy use, etc.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      Apps are great for recurring use, it’s a PITA when it’s single/twice use or if you want standard features (accessibility, print/save screen, sharing urls etc.). For instance parking payment apps, mobile ticket apps etc. that you download when in vacation and could 100% be web only, or a PWA if Apple was onboard with it, instead of their “light app” thing. Or I had some of the government services apps not exposing text labels as selectable, which is a pain if you need to search for it. Same thing when you want to print/save the screen, you end up with a single screen png instead of potentially a fully scrolled and text including pdf. All these features could be coded in the app, but realistically devs don’t give a damn as it doesn’t bring much praise or money.
      - d12bb 4y ago
        > For instance parking payment apps, mobile ticket apps etc Should just be a payment terminal instead of an app. Beyond that, there's App Clips for one time use, and accessibility is worse on the web than on the iPhone (can't speak for Android). For printing and sharing, might be right, but it's broken on websites often enough, too. There are lots of developers (or their management) not caring about UX at all on both sides..
        makeitdouble 4y ago
        > payment terminal You need an interface on your phone for remote payment. Most of them have a workable mobile web site, but notifications for instance aren’t available in that case. Yes App Clips cover that case, but it doesn’t look to me that it got much traction. > accessibility is worse on the web than on the iPhone (can't speak for Android). For printing and sharing, might be right, but it's broken on websites often enough, too. I see this as the main point for having other browser engines. Mobile Safari is horrible to select text and on many basic features. I took these limitations for granted until I moved to android and the browsers work so much better (not flawless, but pretty close). Basically in this day and age, there’s no reason why a mobile browser should be weaker than its desktop counterpart.
    - suslik 4y ago
      But no ad block...
gentleman11 4y ago
Safari is possibly the biggest competitor to chrome, since Firefox is falling out of use. It’s important for the ecosystem to have a strong competitor who isn’t dependent on google
- candiddevmike 4y ago
  Safari is only a competitor because folks don't have a choice. This would force Apple to actually compete against Chrome by giving users a reason to keep using Safari.
  - tgv 4y ago
    You know what Google is doing with Chrome, right? Adding APIs for battery status, USB access, etc. will lead to more information about your device ending up in their possession.
    - solarkraft 4y ago
      Aren't these APIs opt-in? Web USB certainly asks you before doing anything.
- moonchrome 4y ago
  >It’s important for the ecosystem to have a strong competitor who isn’t dependent on google Why ? Seriously - this competition argument gets brought up and I see 0 benefit. There is almost no innovation in the low level aspects and the foundations are opensource with several tech giants contributing. The only thing "competition" adds at this point is fragmentation, compatibility issues and slower feature adoption. This idea that competition beats cooperation is silly - innovation in browser rendering and JS engines is mostly done - the only real innovative effort was Servo and that died - modern variants are there just for political/commercial reasons. If every browser out there converted to Blink/V8 and development resources were focused the web would be better.
- koshnaranek 4y ago
  I get the impression that firefox is regaining lost users lately
KerrAvon 4y ago
The problem with all of this shit is that the EU is only measuring sentiment from developers, not end users. End users are happy with Safari. Developers are the only ones who care about any of the rest of this.
- carapace 4y ago
  If the users prefer Safari they can keep using it, no?
  - sbuk 4y ago
    “This website only works on Chrome.” will be the new "Best viewed in Interet Explorer"
    - carapace 4y ago
      They can run both Chrome and Safari?
      - finiteseries 4y ago
        You can also list/lookup businesses on Facebook and eg Bebo, but factors that run contrary to user desire and performative obtuseness remove utility from one over time.
        carapace 4y ago
        "performative obtuseness"? I do not understand what you are saying. - - - - Ah, I think I get it. You're saying that Chrome would beat Safari if they were both available?
        finiteseries 4y ago
        Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. You’re capable of more, we’re capable of more, this entire thread of yours is beneath us all.
robertoandred 4y ago
Why is Firefox another story?
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Because it’s a whole can of worm that needs so much more to be discussed. In a nutshell, I’m not sure Mozilla can still bring relevant change to the landscape, even if its handicap goes away. As a firefox user, I feel it truely suffered from both Safari locking it out the the emerging mobile web where it had the biggest chance to shine (I actually like firefox mobile even with its current pretty severe limitations), and from Chrome pushing it down from the heavy desktop applications for reasons that aren’t only performance. So it sits in a tough position, but Mozilla also appears to be shooting itself in the foot time after time, and I wonder if the people that made the magic happen haven’t abandoned the ship long ago.
tgv 4y ago
That’s not how it work, is it? You can trick people into installing Chrome, and once that’s done, they won’t switch back, unless Apple tries to trick them. I can already hear the outcry when that happens.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  That's kinda arguing for keeping people chained in the basement because they have a high chance of getting mugged if they get outside.
  - tgv 4y ago
    Except it's kinda hyperbolic beyond good faith.

KerrAvon 4y ago

“This website only works on Chrome.”

MichaelCollins 4y ago
C-w
makeitdouble 4y ago
This is a serious issue that need to be solved directly, and not by carving out weird protected turfs for other monopolistic companies. In the current situation a ton of websites are already bailing out and shoving mobile apps to their users instead of actually addressing Safari.
- d12bb 4y ago
  I like apps. Native look&feel, less energy use, etc.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    Apps are great for recurring use, it’s a PITA when it’s single/twice use or if you want standard features (accessibility, print/save screen, sharing urls etc.). For instance parking payment apps, mobile ticket apps etc. that you download when in vacation and could 100% be web only, or a PWA if Apple was onboard with it, instead of their “light app” thing. Or I had some of the government services apps not exposing text labels as selectable, which is a pain if you need to search for it. Same thing when you want to print/save the screen, you end up with a single screen png instead of potentially a fully scrolled and text including pdf. All these features could be coded in the app, but realistically devs don’t give a damn as it doesn’t bring much praise or money.
    - d12bb 4y ago
      > For instance parking payment apps, mobile ticket apps etc Should just be a payment terminal instead of an app. Beyond that, there's App Clips for one time use, and accessibility is worse on the web than on the iPhone (can't speak for Android). For printing and sharing, might be right, but it's broken on websites often enough, too. There are lots of developers (or their management) not caring about UX at all on both sides..
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        > payment terminal You need an interface on your phone for remote payment. Most of them have a workable mobile web site, but notifications for instance aren’t available in that case. Yes App Clips cover that case, but it doesn’t look to me that it got much traction. > accessibility is worse on the web than on the iPhone (can't speak for Android). For printing and sharing, might be right, but it's broken on websites often enough, too. I see this as the main point for having other browser engines. Mobile Safari is horrible to select text and on many basic features. I took these limitations for granted until I moved to android and the browsers work so much better (not flawless, but pretty close). Basically in this day and age, there’s no reason why a mobile browser should be weaker than its desktop counterpart.
  - suslik 4y ago
    But no ad block...

gentleman11 4y ago

Safari is possibly the biggest competitor to chrome, since Firefox is falling out of use. It’s important for the ecosystem to have a strong competitor who isn’t dependent on google

candiddevmike 4y ago
Safari is only a competitor because folks don't have a choice. This would force Apple to actually compete against Chrome by giving users a reason to keep using Safari.
- tgv 4y ago
  You know what Google is doing with Chrome, right? Adding APIs for battery status, USB access, etc. will lead to more information about your device ending up in their possession.
  - solarkraft 4y ago
    Aren't these APIs opt-in? Web USB certainly asks you before doing anything.
moonchrome 4y ago
>It’s important for the ecosystem to have a strong competitor who isn’t dependent on google Why ? Seriously - this competition argument gets brought up and I see 0 benefit. There is almost no innovation in the low level aspects and the foundations are opensource with several tech giants contributing. The only thing "competition" adds at this point is fragmentation, compatibility issues and slower feature adoption. This idea that competition beats cooperation is silly - innovation in browser rendering and JS engines is mostly done - the only real innovative effort was Servo and that died - modern variants are there just for political/commercial reasons. If every browser out there converted to Blink/V8 and development resources were focused the web would be better.
koshnaranek 4y ago
I get the impression that firefox is regaining lost users lately

KerrAvon 4y ago

The problem with all of this shit is that the EU is only measuring sentiment from developers, not end users. End users are happy with Safari. Developers are the only ones who care about any of the rest of this.

carapace 4y ago
If the users prefer Safari they can keep using it, no?
- sbuk 4y ago
  “This website only works on Chrome.” will be the new "Best viewed in Interet Explorer"
  - carapace 4y ago
    They can run both Chrome and Safari?
    - finiteseries 4y ago
      You can also list/lookup businesses on Facebook and eg Bebo, but factors that run contrary to user desire and performative obtuseness remove utility from one over time.
      - carapace 4y ago
        "performative obtuseness"? I do not understand what you are saying. - - - - Ah, I think I get it. You're saying that Chrome would beat Safari if they were both available?
        finiteseries 4y ago
        Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. You’re capable of more, we’re capable of more, this entire thread of yours is beneath us all.

robertoandred 4y ago

Why is Firefox another story?

makeitdouble 4y ago
Because it’s a whole can of worm that needs so much more to be discussed. In a nutshell, I’m not sure Mozilla can still bring relevant change to the landscape, even if its handicap goes away. As a firefox user, I feel it truely suffered from both Safari locking it out the the emerging mobile web where it had the biggest chance to shine (I actually like firefox mobile even with its current pretty severe limitations), and from Chrome pushing it down from the heavy desktop applications for reasons that aren’t only performance. So it sits in a tough position, but Mozilla also appears to be shooting itself in the foot time after time, and I wonder if the people that made the magic happen haven’t abandoned the ship long ago.

tgv 4y ago

That’s not how it work, is it? You can trick people into installing Chrome, and once that’s done, they won’t switch back, unless Apple tries to trick them. I can already hear the outcry when that happens.

makeitdouble 4y ago
That's kinda arguing for keeping people chained in the basement because they have a high chance of getting mugged if they get outside.
- tgv 4y ago
  Except it's kinda hyperbolic beyond good faith.