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It’s not a popular opinion around here, but the reason I like my iPhone is _because_ it’s a walled garden. It just works, reliably, without surprises, for years

It’s not a popular opinion around here, but the reason I like my iPhone is _because_ it’s a walled garden. It just works, reliably, without surprises, for years on end.

LeoNatan25 4y ago
And will continue to work exactly like that after the required changes. We’ll just have more options.
- bushbaba 4y ago
  Not if players like epic games don’t support Apple Pay (with east cancellation). Don’t support the app stores rules and are only found in 3rd party apo stores..etc. It’ll turn the iPhone into an android. Which sucks as I left android because I enjoyed the walled garden.
  - the_duke 4y ago
    You are free to not use any app that doesn't want to submit to a 30%/20% Apple tax. No one is forcing you to play Epic games. But Apple will probably cut down their rates significantly so most companies stick with the app store. Especially if the US follows suit.
    - d12bb 4y ago
      There are countless ways one can be forced to use an app. My employer could require it. My bank could switch to their own system from Apple Pay. The public transport in my region could roll their own tracking ticket system instead of using Apple Pay. An app leaving the App Store could just have no viable alternative. Etc.
turbinerneiter 4y ago
That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This however isn't a reason for the rest of the world to accept this. And since the power in the market is highly concentrated and all of it is moving more and more in this direction, regulation enforces these alternative options now. All this does is regulate the power the provider of a product has over their customer. This does not ruin the walled garden for the people who prefer to stay in it for peace of mind, but it adds a door for the people who want to leave. There is no negative side-effects for the people staying, only the platform providers will have to spend some money and lose some revenue.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  > That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This isn't going to end well.
- microtonal 4y ago
  That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. I agree in principle, but I worry that we end up in the situation where if you need to use a particular app, you can only get it from a third-party store that you don't trust. (Something gross like Facebook starting an app store.) Or course, this is mostly a result of Apple being greedy. If they had acted like a good steward of the platform rather than trying to extract a lot of money from developers, we probably wouldn't be here.
  - roblabla 4y ago
    Then don't use this particular app? This already exists today: A lot of apps are android-only, or jailbreak-only. In the same sense, tomorrow we'll likely have amazon-store-only apps. In practice I doubt many apps will use a third-party appstore. Apple has a lot of leeway in how they will implement the regulation - they can make it painful enough to use a third-party store that most popular apps will want to keep using the primary app store to get maximum reach. Just like how almost every android app is on the google play store - despite sideloading being a thing since forever.
    - est31 4y ago
      The issue is what if you have to use a specific app to access some service or community. And then that app requesting access to your location data and your address book even though there is no point in it requesting either. Sure you can deny but if you do it, the app will refuse service. It can only be solved by the app store requiring that users denying access won't result in the app refusing to work, or only the features will refuse to work that actually need that data. "just don't install the app" won't work in many, many cases.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
mrweasel 4y ago
I’d don’t think many argue against that. It is just something that you should be able to opt out off.
gostsamo 4y ago
Nothing stops you of staying in the garden though. Just don't install anything Apple and you'd be golden.
- throw10920 4y ago
  Now that there's a way out, however, you can be forced out if e.g. you have to install an app that isn't available in the App Store because its developer saw an opportunity to roll their own. Not saying that the trade isn't worth it, just that, well, now that Pandora's box is open, it's coming to get you, even if you don't want it to.
  - gostsamo 4y ago
    This is situation with many conditionals: 1. Apple won't stay competitive for its major partners in the app store. 2. The app will be really important for you with no alternatives. 3. It will be both important and won't be up to your standards established by Apple. My suspicion is that if it provides really interesting functionality, it will have enough competition that you will be able to choose from. The major danger comes from scams targeting uneducated users, however, if Apple really wants to protect them, it will make everything possible to maintain their app store as a viable distribution channel.
    - throw10920 4y ago
      > My suspicion is that if it provides really interesting functionality, it will have enough competition that you will be able to choose from. I'm thinking of scenarios where you don't specifically want the app, nor does it offer any particularly interesting functionality - it's just a platform lock-in effect. As a trivial instance, you can't install Fortnite on Windows machines without going through the Epic Store. Yet, the value of Fortnite isn't how the game plays, but the skins & community - things that cannot be replicated by another app.
  - krzyk 4y ago
    > Now that there's a way out, however, you can be forced out if e.g. you have to install an app that isn't available in the App Store because its developer saw an opportunity to roll their own. This is something iPhone uses use all the time and this did not happen on Android. Some people just like golden handcufs.
josephg 4y ago
I don’t see how your walled garden is threatened by giving Melbourne Trams the ability to use the NFC chip in my phone to pay for rides. Or threatened by Amazon having the ability to add an in-app purchase button to their iPhone app which uses my saved Amazon payment options. I’m sure apple will fight this tooth and nail, but it’s my phone. I paid for it. I want to be able to do what I want with my device.
- piker 4y ago
  Because it requires the devotion of Apple's resources to supporting non-Apple things. It will necessarily degrade certain experiences away from those that Apple would provide without the regulation.
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - piker 4y ago
      I'm a hedge fund lawyer that carries an iPhone 8 and a ThinkPad.
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    I kinda get your point that Apple will have to devote some more resources, but it will only be slightly more: All the API are already there and being used by Apple apps privately and they just have to make it open to everyone. That's not really a huge overhead for someone of Apple's size - they'll just need to publish / update documentation and increase their developer support teams and that doesn't cost 10's of millions of dollars (which is again peanuts for Apple).
    - KerrAvon 4y ago
      This is really not how it works. Private APIs are usually poorly designed for general use — safeguards for excess power consumption, etc, often don’t exist. Many things will need to be rewritten; this legislation will result in significant delays in shipping new end-user features, if Apple doesn’t simply pull out of the EU, since the EU is demonstrating with this legislation that they don’t care about end-user privacy/security.
Patrol8394 4y ago
True, countless times I had to fix friends/family android tablets and phones where all of the sudden apps stopped working and will boot crash . It is always some crap like apps messing settings and permissions or play not being updated etc… I converted most of family to iPhone/iPad problem solved. I am a tech person but when it comes to phones I want the damn thing just to work and simple to use.
- amelius 4y ago
  That family doesn't know how to keep proper phone hygiene shouldn't mean they get to force their locked down stuff on the rest of us.
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    Unfortunately that's exactly what it means because most common folk will never put an effort into learning the said proper phone hygiene. :(
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- MrStonedOne 4y ago
- shaklee3 4y ago
  none of these things you mentioned are specific to Android. this happens on iOS too.
amelius 4y ago
> the reason I like my iPhone is _because_ it’s a walled garden. Yeah, but now you can choose which walled garden you lock yourself up in, so it's even better.
- motoxpro 4y ago
  Your walled garden gets better, mine (existing Apple ecosystem) gets worse. Less people -> less revenue -> less developers/features/customer support. Just want to highlight the no free lunch in this situation.
  - Siira 4y ago
    Forcing others to conform to your preferences so that you’ll enjoy a better UX is also known as fascism.
arghwhat 4y ago
Well, as an average iPhone user, no. The reliability is mediocre. Keyboard crashing, UI glitching and having wrong dimensions/inoperable sections, occasionally deciding that minimum brightness is the only allowed value and being entirely unresponsive to the brightness slider, some days using waaaay more battery with no battery accounting, sometimes requiring a reboot to use a Qi charger, occasionally freezing and dropping me back to the home screen after what I assume is a crash, sometimes requiring hard reboots as the UI is entirely locked up and doesn't even want to soft crash, ... I can keep going. And yes, it's a new model that no it's not full of crap and apps. It sees light usage outside reading news sites. The "apple is more reliable" thing is a myth. I feel that it used to be the case, but I haven't felt like that for a decade. And no, having anecdotal good experiences is not very useful. I also have those, and so do users of every other platform. Reliability is about the bad experiences, and just works" implies none or at least very few bad experiences.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  I hope you recognize that your experiences are anecdotal as well. None of what you mentioned I even heard of, let alone experienced. Yet you come here and seem to be claiming that your anecdotal evidence weighs heavier than the anecdotal evidence of others. Weird. It's a shame that you drew the short straw but maybe it's something in your setup, home network, mobile coverage or whatnot. If we're going to exchange anecdotes, I can write at least 20 short horror stories of all 13 Android devices I owned over the course of 6 years, belonging to 5 different brands. They had systemic and repeatable / reproducible issues which I eventually concluded their custodians weren't interested in fixing. I can keep going as well. None of what you said is actual evidence.
- Joeri 4y ago
  UI glitching and being stuck at minimum brightness is sometimes a sign of overheating or battery problems, and the OS applying draconic power management to compensate. Unusually high battery drain and overheating is something I once had because of a bad sim card, but YMMV. It is definitely not normal to see these problems on an iphone. I would take it in for service.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
DCKing 4y ago
This argument keeps on popping up, but I don't really understand why. Apple themselves already have a platform that's had a reputation of reliability and "just works" that is not a walled garden in most of the ways the digital markets act intends to prevent: the Mac. There's no evidence the the qualities of Apple products are strongly linked with them being walled gardens. Your iPhone will be fine. (Macs may not be as "just works" as iPhones, sure. I've personally seen that too many times. But computers are also intended to be more flexible and complicated in operation than smartphones, and regardless of personal anecdotes Apple is still widely regarded as building the most "just works" general purpose computers. And whatever faults Macs have, you'd be hard pressed to argue that if only the Mac was more of a walled garden that things would be better.)
cronix 4y ago
And what in the new law would prevent them from continuing to make the same "reliable without surprises" iPhone experience you seemingly enjoy? I don't see anything that prevents them from saying "We can only guarantee an Apple-level experience by using apps vetted by Apple and download directly from the official Apple App Store." Most companies that I'm aware of don't have to warranty issues arising from after market/3rd party accessories. I mean, is Apple responsible if I download software from x company on my mac from x company's website? Why isn't the laptop ecosystem "all messed up" if you can install anything from anywhere on your macbook and use any payment processor? The only thing this really would do to upset Apple is taking away some of their walled-garden revenue, like processing fees. I'm not sure why a watch or phone or tablet needs to be treated opposite of other traditional computing devices. Just because it's a different form factor?
- jiggunjer 4y ago
  I'd argue appliances should be walled and computers shouldn't be. I think the form factor is very relevant. A MacBook is treated like a computer. A phone is treated like an appliance. Most phone/tablet users want the convenience of modular functionality without vetting the source. Said functionality should also be easy to discover and add/remove, hence app stores. Whereas on a computer, app stores are ignored if they even exist. Most people install after doing their own Googling or seeing it run on another MacBook. In my opinion phones intended for general purpose computing should have distinct marketing and different software-related features.
bubblethink 4y ago
It's an extremely popular opinion. It's the tech grandma phenomenon. A lot of people in tech want to optimise for their grandmas. So whenever something like this is proposed, the standard response is, 'But what about my grandma ?'. It's a variation of the 'But what about the kids ?' argument.
- quest88 4y ago
  Consider me a grandma. I work in tech but I'm also tired of it.
- martimarkov 4y ago
  But what about me? I’m the one who likes the fact I don’t need to worry about malware on my phone and I open sensitive documents only on my phone without any anxiety that they might get leaked. I feel a lot of ppl in tech actually don’t care about the end user and care only about the profit they can make while completely disrespecting my privacy. How about that being the phenomenon?
  - bubblethink 4y ago
    You will always have the option of sticking to Apple's recommended practices (their app store, their payment system, etc.). So what's the issue ?
    - d12bb 4y ago
      I won't have when my bank decides their crappy app is better than Apple Pay, when an app I rely on decides to leave the app store, etc. Sure, I can find another bank/app, but I use the ones I use because they have the best conditions/features/etc for me, which others may not have. Or I can't even switch, because the app in question is required for work/public transit etc.
      - krzyk 4y ago
        This does not happen on Android, so why should it happen here? Most people use Google Pay there, bank apps with payments is something that is used rarely, but there is such possibility.
somethoughts 4y ago
If I were Apple - the way I would have gone about it was to sell an open developer phone that supported changing the defaults, etc. That way when the inevitable "Apple has been hacked and is no better than Android" media driven hit pieces come out - Apple can highlight that this is happening on the open developer phone meant for the fringe consumers, not the safe walled garden that most of us normal, non bleeding edge consumers have in our pocket. And us folks who just want a phone that works can sigh in relief versus having to read a 1000 word article only to find its because some guy went through several hoops to install some obvious malware.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Really, Apple could have headed off regulators at the pass if they had embraced the (semi-)opening of their platform themselves. Allow third party app stores but on their own terms, providing SDKs and APIs for creating your own iOS App Store with security checks baked in and mandating privacy protections built in. Sort of like a software services equivalent to Apple Authorized Service Providers and Apple Authorized Resellers. They would have then controlled this debate, and there would have been less room for the Epics of the world to complain about the platform being locked down. Not to mention users would benefit from greater choice. Imagine boutique third party app stores springing up devoted to specific interests and niches such as F-Droid, or promising better curation or quality. Companies who refuse to use the AppStoreKit that Apple so beneficently provided would then be seen as malefactors seeking to subject their users to lack of privacy and security, rather than Apple trying to uphold their 30% cut and restrictive behavior. Instead, Apple tried to control everything and not only did they expose themselves to regulation like this, they deal with customers annoyed at scammy apps on their own App Store, and third party devs crying foul at inconsistent policing.
Tozen 4y ago
I'm not quite understanding this argument. If you prefer to stay behind a "walled garden", then you still can. The difference being that you will personally enforce your own preferences for all things dictated or suggested by Apple versus Apple imposing what they want upon everyone. The "walled garden" will be your own mentally imposed constraint. Though you and various others might prefer the "walled garden", that is not to say that all Apple users prefer it that way. Clearly, as jailbreaking demonstrates, there are significant numbers of iPhone users that didn't and don't want to stay behind Apple's jail or wall.
- martimarkov 4y ago
  Then go and buy an android phone. Honestly this looks to me like I bought a petrol car and I want it to be electric. You have a choice when you buy things. I want the walled garden for my parents so that I can tell them - anything you install is safe so don’t stress. I think most engineers are so narrow minded and don’t understand a vast majority of the user base that it’s insane. Ppl made the decision to buy a specific device. Respect their choice. You don’t like it? Don’t develop for that OS…
  - Tozen 4y ago
    You are disrespecting the choice of iPhone owners, who want freedom of choice on a product they paid for. That's what jailbreaking was/is all about and the various App Store alternatives. It also shows a lack of understanding on the EU's position in regards to fair business practices, where Apple snuffs out any competition. Apple is not suppressing competition out of the kindness of their hearts, they did so to maximize profits off of their captive user base. If you want to follow Apple's future suggested practices, then you will still be able to, it just won't be forcibly imposed on all users.
  - jerojero 4y ago
    There might be some apps and hardware that are desirable on the iPhone and some apps that are desirable on an android phone. For example, I might want to use iMessage without any of the restrictions that you get on other non apple devices. This is huge, my friends all have iPhones and use iMessage. I don't want a neutered experience. What happens to family that rely on these tools, mom's that are looking into buying their child's first phone? This is how people become trapped in these ecosystems. The camera on iPhones is really good, apps like Snapchat or Instagram have always functioned way better on iPhone than on android. There are many reasons why someone would want to use a lot of apps developed for the iPhone. But they might also have extra needs. Personally, I do have an android phone, and besides the apps that I've installed through the playstore I have lots of alternative apps from the f droid. They're great. I have wanted to try the iPhone because I know my mainstream apps would work better in the iPhone. But alas, there are too many restrictions. Why would having more choice be a bad thing?
dunham 4y ago
I too enjoy having an extra layer of protection from the companies writing apps. (And the companies providing libraries to them, like Facebook.) And for my own stuff, the sandboxing gives me a layer of protection from vulnerabilities in the libraries that I use. I think being able to side-load stuff, while keeping the sandboxing (and requiring user permission for access to data) in place would be ideal for me. This makes it a bit easier to write stuff for the device and distribute ad-hoc to friends and family stuff that is of no interest to the general public. I don't have a strong interest in alternative browsers, because I don't believe any of the developers of alternative browsers will prioritize battery life. But I know others have strong feelings about that.
jitix 4y ago
I agree 100%. While I personally would love all these features as a tinkerer, I'm afraid my retiree parents are gonna click on malicious links and install malware. Because this is what they fall for on Windows and Android. Then the solution will be to use anti viruses and other software, which will make the ecosystem even more exploitative (imagine the likes of Norton and Avast on your phone). I believe the best solution is giving the user a choice of the OS. Like go to a store, select phone hardware, select OS and pay. Once you're on an OS you play by the OS' rules. Like for android you could choose vanilla, Samsung distro, Mi distro, etc. Similarly iOS could be available on Pixel hardware, etc.
- lucasyvas 4y ago
  I don't think the security concerns are totally valid - the OS sandboxing is still there.
hammyhavoc 4y ago
Nothing wrong with a sensible OOBE, but please, some mercy for the power/niche users.
mccorrinall 4y ago
I don’t care as long as I can finally use firefox or chrome on my iphone and FINALLY play vp9 webms. Also, I use a few mobile apps with web push notifications, so there is that too! Webkit still doesn’t support neither. Im hyped.
8note 4y ago
That's not the only reason to get an iPhone though, and why should you get this at the expense of the rest of iPhone buyers? The iPhone is hardware, not software
spacexsucks 4y ago
Until it doesnt. Then there is nothing you can do. It leads to ewaste. Thats what happened to my ipod touch and iphone 6 plus after 2 years.
HeavyStorm 4y ago
I don't think that letting you choose third party services is going to change that aspect of the iPhone...
krzyk 4y ago
Interesting why, the name Hacker News implies being able to hack around even (or espacially, this is basically a supercomputer most of us carry around all the time) with your phone.
nerdjon 4y ago
As an iPhone user this is my primary concern. The idea of this is great in theory. But since when have third party companies ever acted for the benefit of the user. This is one of those cases where I felt like Apple benefiting also benefited me as a user. Epic is a fantastic example that went to great lengths to not use the App Store for Fortnite. I worry that allowing this will make it so more developers use third party billing (and dark patterns for canceling), third party app stores that may do shady things, or just distributing packages directly. Sure you can make the argument that I can just not download those apps, but once a company realizes they can abuse their customers by not needing to conform to the rules that Apple sets. Why would continue to be on the App Store? I am watching this very carefully, but I worry that as a consumer I will loose one of the key reasons I use an iPhone.
m463 4y ago
you have some false assumptions though. what is in the walled garden is decided by apple, and they do not have your best interests in mind. For example - any app you install has unfettered network access. what/who the app is connecting to, and what is being sent back and forth is opaque to you. deep linking allows apps to intercept url references external to the app. privacy policies are documents that live on a web server and can change at any time. And app updates can silently change the behavior of the apps as well. It's all a mess, but because there are nice fonts and the icons have rounded corners people are subtly influenced to think it is well organized, maintained and modern.

It’s not a popular opinion around here, but the reason I like my iPhone is _because_ it’s a walled garden. It just works, reliably, without surprises, for years on end.

LeoNatan25 4y ago

And will continue to work exactly like that after the required changes. We’ll just have more options.

bushbaba 4y ago
Not if players like epic games don’t support Apple Pay (with east cancellation). Don’t support the app stores rules and are only found in 3rd party apo stores..etc. It’ll turn the iPhone into an android. Which sucks as I left android because I enjoyed the walled garden.
- the_duke 4y ago
  You are free to not use any app that doesn't want to submit to a 30%/20% Apple tax. No one is forcing you to play Epic games. But Apple will probably cut down their rates significantly so most companies stick with the app store. Especially if the US follows suit.
  - d12bb 4y ago
    There are countless ways one can be forced to use an app. My employer could require it. My bank could switch to their own system from Apple Pay. The public transport in my region could roll their own tracking ticket system instead of using Apple Pay. An app leaving the App Store could just have no viable alternative. Etc.

turbinerneiter 4y ago

That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This however isn't a reason for the rest of the world to accept this. And since the power in the market is highly concentrated and all of it is moving more and more in this direction, regulation enforces these alternative options now. All this does is regulate the power the provider of a product has over their customer. This does not ruin the walled garden for the people who prefer to stay in it for peace of mind, but it adds a door for the people who want to leave. There is no negative side-effects for the people staying, only the platform providers will have to spend some money and lose some revenue.

philliphaydon 4y ago
> That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. This isn't going to end well.
microtonal 4y ago
That's fine, just stay on the default settings then. I agree in principle, but I worry that we end up in the situation where if you need to use a particular app, you can only get it from a third-party store that you don't trust. (Something gross like Facebook starting an app store.) Or course, this is mostly a result of Apple being greedy. If they had acted like a good steward of the platform rather than trying to extract a lot of money from developers, we probably wouldn't be here.
- roblabla 4y ago
  Then don't use this particular app? This already exists today: A lot of apps are android-only, or jailbreak-only. In the same sense, tomorrow we'll likely have amazon-store-only apps. In practice I doubt many apps will use a third-party appstore. Apple has a lot of leeway in how they will implement the regulation - they can make it painful enough to use a third-party store that most popular apps will want to keep using the primary app store to get maximum reach. Just like how almost every android app is on the google play store - despite sideloading being a thing since forever.
  - est31 4y ago
    The issue is what if you have to use a specific app to access some service or community. And then that app requesting access to your location data and your address book even though there is no point in it requesting either. Sure you can deny but if you do it, the app will refuse service. It can only be solved by the app store requiring that users denying access won't result in the app refusing to work, or only the features will refuse to work that actually need that data. "just don't install the app" won't work in many, many cases.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago

mrweasel 4y ago

I’d don’t think many argue against that. It is just something that you should be able to opt out off.

gostsamo 4y ago

Nothing stops you of staying in the garden though. Just don't install anything Apple and you'd be golden.

throw10920 4y ago
Now that there's a way out, however, you can be forced out if e.g. you have to install an app that isn't available in the App Store because its developer saw an opportunity to roll their own. Not saying that the trade isn't worth it, just that, well, now that Pandora's box is open, it's coming to get you, even if you don't want it to.
- gostsamo 4y ago
  This is situation with many conditionals: 1. Apple won't stay competitive for its major partners in the app store. 2. The app will be really important for you with no alternatives. 3. It will be both important and won't be up to your standards established by Apple. My suspicion is that if it provides really interesting functionality, it will have enough competition that you will be able to choose from. The major danger comes from scams targeting uneducated users, however, if Apple really wants to protect them, it will make everything possible to maintain their app store as a viable distribution channel.
  - throw10920 4y ago
    > My suspicion is that if it provides really interesting functionality, it will have enough competition that you will be able to choose from. I'm thinking of scenarios where you don't specifically want the app, nor does it offer any particularly interesting functionality - it's just a platform lock-in effect. As a trivial instance, you can't install Fortnite on Windows machines without going through the Epic Store. Yet, the value of Fortnite isn't how the game plays, but the skins & community - things that cannot be replicated by another app.
- krzyk 4y ago
  > Now that there's a way out, however, you can be forced out if e.g. you have to install an app that isn't available in the App Store because its developer saw an opportunity to roll their own. This is something iPhone uses use all the time and this did not happen on Android. Some people just like golden handcufs.

josephg 4y ago

I don’t see how your walled garden is threatened by giving Melbourne Trams the ability to use the NFC chip in my phone to pay for rides. Or threatened by Amazon having the ability to add an in-app purchase button to their iPhone app which uses my saved Amazon payment options. I’m sure apple will fight this tooth and nail, but it’s my phone. I paid for it. I want to be able to do what I want with my device.

piker 4y ago
Because it requires the devotion of Apple's resources to supporting non-Apple things. It will necessarily degrade certain experiences away from those that Apple would provide without the regulation.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - piker 4y ago
    I'm a hedge fund lawyer that carries an iPhone 8 and a ThinkPad.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  I kinda get your point that Apple will have to devote some more resources, but it will only be slightly more: All the API are already there and being used by Apple apps privately and they just have to make it open to everyone. That's not really a huge overhead for someone of Apple's size - they'll just need to publish / update documentation and increase their developer support teams and that doesn't cost 10's of millions of dollars (which is again peanuts for Apple).
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    This is really not how it works. Private APIs are usually poorly designed for general use — safeguards for excess power consumption, etc, often don’t exist. Many things will need to be rewritten; this legislation will result in significant delays in shipping new end-user features, if Apple doesn’t simply pull out of the EU, since the EU is demonstrating with this legislation that they don’t care about end-user privacy/security.

Patrol8394 4y ago

True, countless times I had to fix friends/family android tablets and phones where all of the sudden apps stopped working and will boot crash . It is always some crap like apps messing settings and permissions or play not being updated etc… I converted most of family to iPhone/iPad problem solved. I am a tech person but when it comes to phones I want the damn thing just to work and simple to use.

amelius 4y ago
That family doesn't know how to keep proper phone hygiene shouldn't mean they get to force their locked down stuff on the rest of us.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  Unfortunately that's exactly what it means because most common folk will never put an effort into learning the said proper phone hygiene. :(
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
MrStonedOne 4y ago
shaklee3 4y ago
none of these things you mentioned are specific to Android. this happens on iOS too.

amelius 4y ago

> the reason I like my iPhone is _because_ it’s a walled garden. Yeah, but now you can choose which walled garden you lock yourself up in, so it's even better.

motoxpro 4y ago
Your walled garden gets better, mine (existing Apple ecosystem) gets worse. Less people -> less revenue -> less developers/features/customer support. Just want to highlight the no free lunch in this situation.
- Siira 4y ago
  Forcing others to conform to your preferences so that you’ll enjoy a better UX is also known as fascism.

arghwhat 4y ago

Well, as an average iPhone user, no. The reliability is mediocre. Keyboard crashing, UI glitching and having wrong dimensions/inoperable sections, occasionally deciding that minimum brightness is the only allowed value and being entirely unresponsive to the brightness slider, some days using waaaay more battery with no battery accounting, sometimes requiring a reboot to use a Qi charger, occasionally freezing and dropping me back to the home screen after what I assume is a crash, sometimes requiring hard reboots as the UI is entirely locked up and doesn't even want to soft crash, ... I can keep going. And yes, it's a new model that no it's not full of crap and apps. It sees light usage outside reading news sites. The "apple is more reliable" thing is a myth. I feel that it used to be the case, but I haven't felt like that for a decade. And no, having anecdotal good experiences is not very useful. I also have those, and so do users of every other platform. Reliability is about the bad experiences, and just works" implies none or at least very few bad experiences.

pdimitar 4y ago
I hope you recognize that your experiences are anecdotal as well. None of what you mentioned I even heard of, let alone experienced. Yet you come here and seem to be claiming that your anecdotal evidence weighs heavier than the anecdotal evidence of others. Weird. It's a shame that you drew the short straw but maybe it's something in your setup, home network, mobile coverage or whatnot. If we're going to exchange anecdotes, I can write at least 20 short horror stories of all 13 Android devices I owned over the course of 6 years, belonging to 5 different brands. They had systemic and repeatable / reproducible issues which I eventually concluded their custodians weren't interested in fixing. I can keep going as well. None of what you said is actual evidence.
Joeri 4y ago
UI glitching and being stuck at minimum brightness is sometimes a sign of overheating or battery problems, and the OS applying draconic power management to compensate. Unusually high battery drain and overheating is something I once had because of a bad sim card, but YMMV. It is definitely not normal to see these problems on an iphone. I would take it in for service.

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DCKing 4y ago

This argument keeps on popping up, but I don't really understand why. Apple themselves already have a platform that's had a reputation of reliability and "just works" that is not a walled garden in most of the ways the digital markets act intends to prevent: the Mac. There's no evidence the the qualities of Apple products are strongly linked with them being walled gardens. Your iPhone will be fine. (Macs may not be as "just works" as iPhones, sure. I've personally seen that too many times. But computers are also intended to be more flexible and complicated in operation than smartphones, and regardless of personal anecdotes Apple is still widely regarded as building the most "just works" general purpose computers. And whatever faults Macs have, you'd be hard pressed to argue that if only the Mac was more of a walled garden that things would be better.)

cronix 4y ago

And what in the new law would prevent them from continuing to make the same "reliable without surprises" iPhone experience you seemingly enjoy? I don't see anything that prevents them from saying "We can only guarantee an Apple-level experience by using apps vetted by Apple and download directly from the official Apple App Store." Most companies that I'm aware of don't have to warranty issues arising from after market/3rd party accessories. I mean, is Apple responsible if I download software from x company on my mac from x company's website? Why isn't the laptop ecosystem "all messed up" if you can install anything from anywhere on your macbook and use any payment processor? The only thing this really would do to upset Apple is taking away some of their walled-garden revenue, like processing fees. I'm not sure why a watch or phone or tablet needs to be treated opposite of other traditional computing devices. Just because it's a different form factor?

jiggunjer 4y ago
I'd argue appliances should be walled and computers shouldn't be. I think the form factor is very relevant. A MacBook is treated like a computer. A phone is treated like an appliance. Most phone/tablet users want the convenience of modular functionality without vetting the source. Said functionality should also be easy to discover and add/remove, hence app stores. Whereas on a computer, app stores are ignored if they even exist. Most people install after doing their own Googling or seeing it run on another MacBook. In my opinion phones intended for general purpose computing should have distinct marketing and different software-related features.

bubblethink 4y ago

It's an extremely popular opinion. It's the tech grandma phenomenon. A lot of people in tech want to optimise for their grandmas. So whenever something like this is proposed, the standard response is, 'But what about my grandma ?'. It's a variation of the 'But what about the kids ?' argument.

quest88 4y ago
Consider me a grandma. I work in tech but I'm also tired of it.
martimarkov 4y ago
But what about me? I’m the one who likes the fact I don’t need to worry about malware on my phone and I open sensitive documents only on my phone without any anxiety that they might get leaked. I feel a lot of ppl in tech actually don’t care about the end user and care only about the profit they can make while completely disrespecting my privacy. How about that being the phenomenon?
- bubblethink 4y ago
  You will always have the option of sticking to Apple's recommended practices (their app store, their payment system, etc.). So what's the issue ?
  - d12bb 4y ago
    I won't have when my bank decides their crappy app is better than Apple Pay, when an app I rely on decides to leave the app store, etc. Sure, I can find another bank/app, but I use the ones I use because they have the best conditions/features/etc for me, which others may not have. Or I can't even switch, because the app in question is required for work/public transit etc.
    - krzyk 4y ago
      This does not happen on Android, so why should it happen here? Most people use Google Pay there, bank apps with payments is something that is used rarely, but there is such possibility.

somethoughts 4y ago

If I were Apple - the way I would have gone about it was to sell an open developer phone that supported changing the defaults, etc. That way when the inevitable "Apple has been hacked and is no better than Android" media driven hit pieces come out - Apple can highlight that this is happening on the open developer phone meant for the fringe consumers, not the safe walled garden that most of us normal, non bleeding edge consumers have in our pocket. And us folks who just want a phone that works can sigh in relief versus having to read a 1000 word article only to find its because some guy went through several hoops to install some obvious malware.

Apocryphon 4y ago
Really, Apple could have headed off regulators at the pass if they had embraced the (semi-)opening of their platform themselves. Allow third party app stores but on their own terms, providing SDKs and APIs for creating your own iOS App Store with security checks baked in and mandating privacy protections built in. Sort of like a software services equivalent to Apple Authorized Service Providers and Apple Authorized Resellers. They would have then controlled this debate, and there would have been less room for the Epics of the world to complain about the platform being locked down. Not to mention users would benefit from greater choice. Imagine boutique third party app stores springing up devoted to specific interests and niches such as F-Droid, or promising better curation or quality. Companies who refuse to use the AppStoreKit that Apple so beneficently provided would then be seen as malefactors seeking to subject their users to lack of privacy and security, rather than Apple trying to uphold their 30% cut and restrictive behavior. Instead, Apple tried to control everything and not only did they expose themselves to regulation like this, they deal with customers annoyed at scammy apps on their own App Store, and third party devs crying foul at inconsistent policing.

Tozen 4y ago

I'm not quite understanding this argument. If you prefer to stay behind a "walled garden", then you still can. The difference being that you will personally enforce your own preferences for all things dictated or suggested by Apple versus Apple imposing what they want upon everyone. The "walled garden" will be your own mentally imposed constraint. Though you and various others might prefer the "walled garden", that is not to say that all Apple users prefer it that way. Clearly, as jailbreaking demonstrates, there are significant numbers of iPhone users that didn't and don't want to stay behind Apple's jail or wall.

martimarkov 4y ago
Then go and buy an android phone. Honestly this looks to me like I bought a petrol car and I want it to be electric. You have a choice when you buy things. I want the walled garden for my parents so that I can tell them - anything you install is safe so don’t stress. I think most engineers are so narrow minded and don’t understand a vast majority of the user base that it’s insane. Ppl made the decision to buy a specific device. Respect their choice. You don’t like it? Don’t develop for that OS…
- Tozen 4y ago
  You are disrespecting the choice of iPhone owners, who want freedom of choice on a product they paid for. That's what jailbreaking was/is all about and the various App Store alternatives. It also shows a lack of understanding on the EU's position in regards to fair business practices, where Apple snuffs out any competition. Apple is not suppressing competition out of the kindness of their hearts, they did so to maximize profits off of their captive user base. If you want to follow Apple's future suggested practices, then you will still be able to, it just won't be forcibly imposed on all users.
- jerojero 4y ago
  There might be some apps and hardware that are desirable on the iPhone and some apps that are desirable on an android phone. For example, I might want to use iMessage without any of the restrictions that you get on other non apple devices. This is huge, my friends all have iPhones and use iMessage. I don't want a neutered experience. What happens to family that rely on these tools, mom's that are looking into buying their child's first phone? This is how people become trapped in these ecosystems. The camera on iPhones is really good, apps like Snapchat or Instagram have always functioned way better on iPhone than on android. There are many reasons why someone would want to use a lot of apps developed for the iPhone. But they might also have extra needs. Personally, I do have an android phone, and besides the apps that I've installed through the playstore I have lots of alternative apps from the f droid. They're great. I have wanted to try the iPhone because I know my mainstream apps would work better in the iPhone. But alas, there are too many restrictions. Why would having more choice be a bad thing?

dunham 4y ago

I too enjoy having an extra layer of protection from the companies writing apps. (And the companies providing libraries to them, like Facebook.) And for my own stuff, the sandboxing gives me a layer of protection from vulnerabilities in the libraries that I use. I think being able to side-load stuff, while keeping the sandboxing (and requiring user permission for access to data) in place would be ideal for me. This makes it a bit easier to write stuff for the device and distribute ad-hoc to friends and family stuff that is of no interest to the general public. I don't have a strong interest in alternative browsers, because I don't believe any of the developers of alternative browsers will prioritize battery life. But I know others have strong feelings about that.

jitix 4y ago

I agree 100%. While I personally would love all these features as a tinkerer, I'm afraid my retiree parents are gonna click on malicious links and install malware. Because this is what they fall for on Windows and Android. Then the solution will be to use anti viruses and other software, which will make the ecosystem even more exploitative (imagine the likes of Norton and Avast on your phone). I believe the best solution is giving the user a choice of the OS. Like go to a store, select phone hardware, select OS and pay. Once you're on an OS you play by the OS' rules. Like for android you could choose vanilla, Samsung distro, Mi distro, etc. Similarly iOS could be available on Pixel hardware, etc.

lucasyvas 4y ago
I don't think the security concerns are totally valid - the OS sandboxing is still there.

hammyhavoc 4y ago

Nothing wrong with a sensible OOBE, but please, some mercy for the power/niche users.

mccorrinall 4y ago

I don’t care as long as I can finally use firefox or chrome on my iphone and FINALLY play vp9 webms. Also, I use a few mobile apps with web push notifications, so there is that too! Webkit still doesn’t support neither. Im hyped.

8note 4y ago

That's not the only reason to get an iPhone though, and why should you get this at the expense of the rest of iPhone buyers? The iPhone is hardware, not software

spacexsucks 4y ago

Until it doesnt. Then there is nothing you can do. It leads to ewaste. Thats what happened to my ipod touch and iphone 6 plus after 2 years.

HeavyStorm 4y ago

I don't think that letting you choose third party services is going to change that aspect of the iPhone...

krzyk 4y ago

Interesting why, the name Hacker News implies being able to hack around even (or espacially, this is basically a supercomputer most of us carry around all the time) with your phone.

nerdjon 4y ago

As an iPhone user this is my primary concern. The idea of this is great in theory. But since when have third party companies ever acted for the benefit of the user. This is one of those cases where I felt like Apple benefiting also benefited me as a user. Epic is a fantastic example that went to great lengths to not use the App Store for Fortnite. I worry that allowing this will make it so more developers use third party billing (and dark patterns for canceling), third party app stores that may do shady things, or just distributing packages directly. Sure you can make the argument that I can just not download those apps, but once a company realizes they can abuse their customers by not needing to conform to the rules that Apple sets. Why would continue to be on the App Store? I am watching this very carefully, but I worry that as a consumer I will loose one of the key reasons I use an iPhone.

m463 4y ago

you have some false assumptions though. what is in the walled garden is decided by apple, and they do not have your best interests in mind. For example - any app you install has unfettered network access. what/who the app is connecting to, and what is being sent back and forth is opaque to you. deep linking allows apps to intercept url references external to the app. privacy policies are documents that live on a web server and can change at any time. And app updates can silently change the behavior of the apps as well. It's all a mess, but because there are nice fonts and the icons have rounded corners people are subtly influenced to think it is well organized, maintained and modern.