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>You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't t

>You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't take the time to learn whatever esoteric config file to manage their DE is a child that can't tell left from right. Somehow the decade of directed scams and proliferation of malware and spyware isn't a problem and it's the developers "right" to be able to turn on your microphone and send that data to the cloud. When Facebook mandates that to install Instagram you must sideload it from the Facebook store and your entire's family's location is being tracked 24/7 I hope you will thank Zuckerberg for all the freedom hes giving you >Don't demand that Apple treat the rest of us like children just because that's how you would like to be treated. You could just not buy from Apple. I never understand how the anti-Apple crowd is convinced that Apple is run by Satan himself, but cannot compel themselves from buying Apple products.

tlamponi 4y ago
1. Who talked about Linux? 2. Who said spam isn't a problem or that this act allows or even enforce to circumvent the strong privacy rules that the EU (not Apple) actually guarantees for their biggest single market in the world? News flash: you can combat spam and scams while keeping open and exchangeable basic infrastructure, without any walled garden. Otherwise, following your logic Apple would need to ban access to protocols like IP instantly, as those can be used to transport spam and exchange openly information. People rather argue that the safety excuse is BS and people do not require being a Linux expert to detect spam, that they can also get over the landline or in person knocking on the door, for that one needs common sense and some not completely bad education.
- nemothekid 4y ago
  I don't know why you've decided to focus on confidence scams, it's like you are intentionally trying to dodge my point. >Otherwise, following your logic Apple would need to ban access to protocols like IP instantly But they _did_. The browser engine is another walled garden. HTTP is one of those "open protocols" that has been rife with spyware, but for some reasons people don't tend to cry as loudly when Apple banned third party cookies. >that they can also get over the landline or in person knocking on the door, for that one needs common sense and some not completely bad education. I enjoy looking forward to you educating people not install Instagram. I don't know why people continue to assume the bad guys are blackhats or script kiddies. The company that stands to benefit the most from this is the company that lost nearly 400 billion dollars when Apple decided to curb fingerprinting. That is 400 billion reasons they have to push you to sideload. You really think you can just tell people to exercise "common sense" against someone who stands to gain $400B? Again, to circle back to Linux, you are displaying the same kind of hubris that developers have when it comes to software. It's a refusal to have any empathy for actual users - telling people not to install Instagram from the FB App Store because it's "common sense" is asinine. FB will spend $1B convincing your doctor that the FB App Store will cure cancer; how is a normal person supposed to combat that with "common sense".
  - tlamponi 4y ago
    Third party cookies are far from being required by spam or scams and that's actually an example how one can make platforms safer while keeping them open and exchangeable, as for that 3rd party cookies ain't needed at all and it's not a tech to prop up their garden's walls. > I enjoy looking forward to you educating people not install Instagram. I never said anything about not installing Instagram just like I didn't argue those people should add doors or landlines to their houses ;-) So please, just stop it with propping up and taking down all those straw mans nobody talked about! Rather, think common sense with a sexy lady offering their hot single friends to you, or some person offering you 10 million bucks as long as you can cover the small transaction fee of $1000, independent of the medium its send over (whatsapp, instagram, telegram, fb, irc, matrix, mail, ...) And w.r.t your general suggestion that all devs just don't care about their users, it's anecdotal but personally I actually care a lot about UX and to offer users the information to allow them to make the right decision, that's one of main things I look out when reviewing UI or also API (as API users, even if developers themselves, are user too) patches, and I know quite a few other devs that try to do the same, not all "hate" their users. > FB will spend $1B convincing your doctor that the FB App Store will cure cancer Besides the point that they don't, that's again a complete straw man, nobody talked about that the FB app itself is a scam or evil or whatnot, it may even be, but that's not the point of the whole EU Act and your defense of Apples walled garden mechanisms like banning other payment providers, which still can and must be vetted to be even legal in the EU, or virtually breaking sharing of your data to other apps, that they can still vet and ensure basic security on.
    - nemothekid 4y ago
      >Rather, think common sense with a sexy lady offering their hot single friends to you, or some person offering you 10 million bucks as long as you can cover the small transaction fee of $1000, independent of the medium its send over (whatsapp, instagram, telegram, fb, irc, matrix, mail, ...) >nobody talked about that the FB app itself is a scam or evil or whatnot You are continuing to miss the point. It's not a strawman if you are ignoring my concern. Instagram _is_ the concern. I don't care about confidence scams; my problem is Facebook, and the rest of adtech in general building massive databases on everyone else. The EU has been toothless in preventing this; and adtech is so entrenched that this will likely remain the case. "Opening" the platform is only good for developers, not for users. Opening the platform just means more ways for users to track me and others around me. This is not a strawman; this is literally apple's marketing on what a platform like their offers. For you to just ignore the problem that platforms like Meta propose is naive. Again I don't care about nigerian prince scams; that is not why I tell people to buy an iPhone.
- bun_at_work 4y ago
  > People rather argue that the safety excuse is BS and people do not require being a Linux expert to detect spam, that they can also get over the landline or in person knocking on the door, for that one needs common sense and some not completely bad education. This ignores human nature and reality. People are easily manipulated at scale, and the proof is that the scams and spam calls continue. If it was a matter of "common sense" then those things wouldn't be as prevalent as they are.
bloppe 4y ago
To your first point: I find it telling that your main concern with reducing Apple's monopoly power is that it would elevate Facebook's monopoly power. How about we design regulations that mitigate against monopoly power in all its forms? Then there would be viable alternatives to Facebook and all of the sudden their business model based on hostile tracking becomes completely unsustainable because there's meaningful competition that actually respects their users. We don't need to be serfs. To your second point: Apple exerts influence far beyond their consumers. Even though I'm sure this isn't news to you, I'll still point you toward some interesting articles: https://proton.me/blog/apple-app-store-antitrust https://proton.me/blog/apple-app-store-antitrust https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html Much of this is invisible to the typical resident of the walled garden, but they actually cause a lot of harm to society because of their market dominance. Anybody with a small child is probably aware of the harmful effects of the "dreaded green bubbles" (I'm sure people will try to counter this point with claims that iMessage is somehow more secure / more functional than other protocols. I invite those people to do some research first. I think you'd be surprised at the gulf between your own understanding of iMessage's security vs. reality).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nemothekid 4y ago
  >Then there would be viable alternatives to Facebook and all of the sudden their business model based on hostile tracking becomes completely unsustainable because there's meaningful competition that actually respects their users. This assumes my problem is with Facebook and Facebook alone. My problem is with ad-tech and more generally all other developers. I know Apple exersts influence beyond their customers and I'm not sympathetic to developers who cry about Apple not letting them run $program. What the web has shown is that given a free-for-all platform, users lose and any new technology is used to fingerprint people on the web. Apple has provided an option that, sure is a walled garden, but I can be reasonably confident isn't doing something I'm not interested in. I'm not sure what "harmful effects" of green bubbles are but I'm sure envy isn't as bad as every ad tech company having an NSA style citizen database.
SomeHacker44 4y ago
Then... stop using Instagram? Build operating system level controls that function regardless of app source?
- nemothekid 4y ago
  Just build my own operating system, ok.
fyzix 4y ago
Facebook isn't forcing Android users to install their apps from an alt store so that point is moot
- nemothekid 4y ago
  Facebook doesn't need to; as far as I'm aware Android has done nothing as drastic as Apple's tracking opt-in. Android is already open enough for Facebook to do whatever they want.
- smileybarry 4y ago
  If you're browsing the web version of Facebook, the banner to install their app links directly to an APK, not Google Play. "Better with the app" shows in a bunch of places alongside a "accidentally broken" suggestion bar whose "X" doesn't work. Messenger refuses to work on the web and requires you to download the app, unless you pretend to be a desktop browser. Source: I refused to install Facebook's app while on Android and had to use the intentionally slowed-down and crashy web version. (on a flagship processor)
  - koyote 4y ago
    > If you're browsing the web version of Facebook, the banner to install their app links directly to an APK, not Google Play. Can you please show me how you managed to make this happen? I just browsed to Facebook and the top banner takes me to the Play store. I would be VERY surprised if facebook forced users to go into the special apps access settings page and enable installing apks. That's a power user feature.
    - smileybarry 4y ago
      If you're browsing it for a while (recurring use), it starts suggesting "Facebook Lite" and links to an APK to install, instead of Google Play. This was on Android, on a Pixel 2, but since then I've switched to iOS last year so I can't reproduce it right now.
  - refulgentis 4y ago
rcpt 4y ago
DJI already does this with their Android app. The play store version doesn't work so you need to sideload something from their website. No idea what they're doing with the data but there's no other way to fly your drone.
arrosenberg 4y ago
> For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't take the time to learn whatever esoteric config file to manage their DE is a child that can't tell left from right. Notably, most of the non-technical users I am acquainted with manage to use Windows, which will also let you install any software package you want if you click continue on the warning.
- dieortin 4y ago
  Yeah, and that goes very well doesn’t it? That’s why users end up with tons of spyware and bloatware. And if they don’t, they might not be as non-technical as you think.
  - arrosenberg 4y ago
    Lots of the free apps and f2p games on the apple app store could be described as spyware and bloatware, so I fail to see your point.
  - unity1001 4y ago
    > That’s why users end up with tons of spyware and bloatware We are not in 2010s. That does not happen. And when that happens, its because the users explicitly chose to do it in order to access certain things.
- d12bb 4y ago
  Hm, why does my mom call me every few months for help with her Windows laptop, then? She never needed help with her phone, since she tossed the Android one for my old iPhone (ok, actually once, but that was a faulty charging cable)..
  - arrosenberg 4y ago
    I don't know, why do generalizations sometimes fail on specific anecdotes? My relatives need help with iPhones and Windows devices about equally.
oneoff786 4y ago
So demand regulation against the tracking. Demanding everyone spread their butt cheeks to Apple because you like something that someone else could do is nonsense.
alaric410 4y ago
I see a lot of Apple fans make unsubstantiated claims that Apple's restrictions on its ecosystem is effective in stopping spam, malware, scams, etc... I have yet to see any data to back this up.
- fingerlocks 4y ago
  What kind of data are you looking for? Static analysis and Apple-signed binaries tied to developer profiles prevent the vast majority of abuses. For example, it’s possible to modify the Mach-O link loader on a compiled app like DoorDash to use a fake Apple Pay API that steals credit card numbers. But it’s very difficult to get that scammy app installed on an unsuspecting victim’s device. And it’s impossible to upload to the App Store. Third party App Store? No problem.
  - emkoemko 4y ago
    tiktok sending your data to the CCP...
    - fingerlocks 4y ago
      Can you elaborate on how that will be prevented by the Digital Markets Act?
      - emkoemko 4y ago
        ?? how is Apple preventing this right now?
        fingerlocks 4y ago
        ?? I never said they were
  - alaric410 4y ago
    > Apple-signed binaries tied to developer profiles prevent the vast majority of abuses. More unsubstantiated claims > Third party App Store? No problem. Nonsense. Giving people choice does not mean opening the floodgates to malware. You can disable sideloading apps by default, but also enable them upon explicit user request. You can call it a "I'm a responsible adult" button. You don't need walled gardens for this. A sensible safe default with a pathway to disabling it is sufficient. You can't restrict choice for everyone just because a couple of tech-illiterate folks might make bad choices. It's silly and soon also illegal.
anhner 4y ago
> When Facebook mandates that to install Instagram you must sideload it from the Facebook store and your entire's family's location is being tracked 24/7 I hope you will thank Zuckerberg for all the freedom hes giving you How will the Instagram app evade iOS's security measures if it's sideloaded?
- patchd 4y ago
  Doesn’t go through app review when it’s side loaded, so it can have features that go against the ToS or app guidelines
  - anhner 4y ago
    I think you misunderstand what the sandbox of the operating system does. An app cannot start tracking you 24/7 just because it's sideloaded.
ohgodplsno 4y ago
Oh yes please, I would love to see Facebook do that. They're already in hot enough water with GDPR, doing this would absolutely nuke them out of existence in the EU. I know it's a complicated concept to understand, but we have multiple sets of laws that are aimed at punishing exactly what you're saying. The DMA passing doesn't mean ePrivacy or GDPR is gone.
Siira 4y ago
> You could just not buy from Apple. The hardware scene is, in practice, quite monopolistic. This is especially true nowadays that Apple’s chips are vastly outcompeting others. I don’t know if this is because of some nefarious schemes or not, but even if it is a natural monopoly, it’s still a monopoly that might take years to be undone. There is no reason to extend this hardware monopoly to software as well though. Apple can enjoy their great margin on their hardware, without also controlling everyone’s most intimate devices.

tlamponi 4y ago

1. Who talked about Linux? 2. Who said spam isn't a problem or that this act allows or even enforce to circumvent the strong privacy rules that the EU (not Apple) actually guarantees for their biggest single market in the world? News flash: you can combat spam and scams while keeping open and exchangeable basic infrastructure, without any walled garden. Otherwise, following your logic Apple would need to ban access to protocols like IP instantly, as those can be used to transport spam and exchange openly information. People rather argue that the safety excuse is BS and people do not require being a Linux expert to detect spam, that they can also get over the landline or in person knocking on the door, for that one needs common sense and some not completely bad education.

nemothekid 4y ago
I don't know why you've decided to focus on confidence scams, it's like you are intentionally trying to dodge my point. >Otherwise, following your logic Apple would need to ban access to protocols like IP instantly But they _did_. The browser engine is another walled garden. HTTP is one of those "open protocols" that has been rife with spyware, but for some reasons people don't tend to cry as loudly when Apple banned third party cookies. >that they can also get over the landline or in person knocking on the door, for that one needs common sense and some not completely bad education. I enjoy looking forward to you educating people not install Instagram. I don't know why people continue to assume the bad guys are blackhats or script kiddies. The company that stands to benefit the most from this is the company that lost nearly 400 billion dollars when Apple decided to curb fingerprinting. That is 400 billion reasons they have to push you to sideload. You really think you can just tell people to exercise "common sense" against someone who stands to gain $400B? Again, to circle back to Linux, you are displaying the same kind of hubris that developers have when it comes to software. It's a refusal to have any empathy for actual users - telling people not to install Instagram from the FB App Store because it's "common sense" is asinine. FB will spend $1B convincing your doctor that the FB App Store will cure cancer; how is a normal person supposed to combat that with "common sense".
- tlamponi 4y ago
  Third party cookies are far from being required by spam or scams and that's actually an example how one can make platforms safer while keeping them open and exchangeable, as for that 3rd party cookies ain't needed at all and it's not a tech to prop up their garden's walls. > I enjoy looking forward to you educating people not install Instagram. I never said anything about not installing Instagram just like I didn't argue those people should add doors or landlines to their houses ;-) So please, just stop it with propping up and taking down all those straw mans nobody talked about! Rather, think common sense with a sexy lady offering their hot single friends to you, or some person offering you 10 million bucks as long as you can cover the small transaction fee of $1000, independent of the medium its send over (whatsapp, instagram, telegram, fb, irc, matrix, mail, ...) And w.r.t your general suggestion that all devs just don't care about their users, it's anecdotal but personally I actually care a lot about UX and to offer users the information to allow them to make the right decision, that's one of main things I look out when reviewing UI or also API (as API users, even if developers themselves, are user too) patches, and I know quite a few other devs that try to do the same, not all "hate" their users. > FB will spend $1B convincing your doctor that the FB App Store will cure cancer Besides the point that they don't, that's again a complete straw man, nobody talked about that the FB app itself is a scam or evil or whatnot, it may even be, but that's not the point of the whole EU Act and your defense of Apples walled garden mechanisms like banning other payment providers, which still can and must be vetted to be even legal in the EU, or virtually breaking sharing of your data to other apps, that they can still vet and ensure basic security on.
  - nemothekid 4y ago
    >Rather, think common sense with a sexy lady offering their hot single friends to you, or some person offering you 10 million bucks as long as you can cover the small transaction fee of $1000, independent of the medium its send over (whatsapp, instagram, telegram, fb, irc, matrix, mail, ...) >nobody talked about that the FB app itself is a scam or evil or whatnot You are continuing to miss the point. It's not a strawman if you are ignoring my concern. Instagram _is_ the concern. I don't care about confidence scams; my problem is Facebook, and the rest of adtech in general building massive databases on everyone else. The EU has been toothless in preventing this; and adtech is so entrenched that this will likely remain the case. "Opening" the platform is only good for developers, not for users. Opening the platform just means more ways for users to track me and others around me. This is not a strawman; this is literally apple's marketing on what a platform like their offers. For you to just ignore the problem that platforms like Meta propose is naive. Again I don't care about nigerian prince scams; that is not why I tell people to buy an iPhone.
bun_at_work 4y ago
> People rather argue that the safety excuse is BS and people do not require being a Linux expert to detect spam, that they can also get over the landline or in person knocking on the door, for that one needs common sense and some not completely bad education. This ignores human nature and reality. People are easily manipulated at scale, and the proof is that the scams and spam calls continue. If it was a matter of "common sense" then those things wouldn't be as prevalent as they are.

bloppe 4y ago

To your first point: I find it telling that your main concern with reducing Apple's monopoly power is that it would elevate Facebook's monopoly power. How about we design regulations that mitigate against monopoly power in all its forms? Then there would be viable alternatives to Facebook and all of the sudden their business model based on hostile tracking becomes completely unsustainable because there's meaningful competition that actually respects their users. We don't need to be serfs. To your second point: Apple exerts influence far beyond their consumers. Even though I'm sure this isn't news to you, I'll still point you toward some interesting articles: https://proton.me/blog/apple-app-store-antitrust https://proton.me/blog/apple-app-store-antitrust https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html Much of this is invisible to the typical resident of the walled garden, but they actually cause a lot of harm to society because of their market dominance. Anybody with a small child is probably aware of the harmful effects of the "dreaded green bubbles" (I'm sure people will try to counter this point with claims that iMessage is somehow more secure / more functional than other protocols. I invite those people to do some research first. I think you'd be surprised at the gulf between your own understanding of iMessage's security vs. reality).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nemothekid 4y ago
>Then there would be viable alternatives to Facebook and all of the sudden their business model based on hostile tracking becomes completely unsustainable because there's meaningful competition that actually respects their users. This assumes my problem is with Facebook and Facebook alone. My problem is with ad-tech and more generally all other developers. I know Apple exersts influence beyond their customers and I'm not sympathetic to developers who cry about Apple not letting them run $program. What the web has shown is that given a free-for-all platform, users lose and any new technology is used to fingerprint people on the web. Apple has provided an option that, sure is a walled garden, but I can be reasonably confident isn't doing something I'm not interested in. I'm not sure what "harmful effects" of green bubbles are but I'm sure envy isn't as bad as every ad tech company having an NSA style citizen database.

SomeHacker44 4y ago

Then... stop using Instagram? Build operating system level controls that function regardless of app source?

nemothekid 4y ago
Just build my own operating system, ok.

fyzix 4y ago

Facebook isn't forcing Android users to install their apps from an alt store so that point is moot

nemothekid 4y ago
Facebook doesn't need to; as far as I'm aware Android has done nothing as drastic as Apple's tracking opt-in. Android is already open enough for Facebook to do whatever they want.
smileybarry 4y ago
If you're browsing the web version of Facebook, the banner to install their app links directly to an APK, not Google Play. "Better with the app" shows in a bunch of places alongside a "accidentally broken" suggestion bar whose "X" doesn't work. Messenger refuses to work on the web and requires you to download the app, unless you pretend to be a desktop browser. Source: I refused to install Facebook's app while on Android and had to use the intentionally slowed-down and crashy web version. (on a flagship processor)
- koyote 4y ago
  > If you're browsing the web version of Facebook, the banner to install their app links directly to an APK, not Google Play. Can you please show me how you managed to make this happen? I just browsed to Facebook and the top banner takes me to the Play store. I would be VERY surprised if facebook forced users to go into the special apps access settings page and enable installing apks. That's a power user feature.
  - smileybarry 4y ago
    If you're browsing it for a while (recurring use), it starts suggesting "Facebook Lite" and links to an APK to install, instead of Google Play. This was on Android, on a Pixel 2, but since then I've switched to iOS last year so I can't reproduce it right now.
- refulgentis 4y ago

rcpt 4y ago

DJI already does this with their Android app. The play store version doesn't work so you need to sideload something from their website. No idea what they're doing with the data but there's no other way to fly your drone.

arrosenberg 4y ago

> For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't take the time to learn whatever esoteric config file to manage their DE is a child that can't tell left from right. Notably, most of the non-technical users I am acquainted with manage to use Windows, which will also let you install any software package you want if you click continue on the warning.

dieortin 4y ago
Yeah, and that goes very well doesn’t it? That’s why users end up with tons of spyware and bloatware. And if they don’t, they might not be as non-technical as you think.
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  Lots of the free apps and f2p games on the apple app store could be described as spyware and bloatware, so I fail to see your point.
- unity1001 4y ago
  > That’s why users end up with tons of spyware and bloatware We are not in 2010s. That does not happen. And when that happens, its because the users explicitly chose to do it in order to access certain things.
d12bb 4y ago
Hm, why does my mom call me every few months for help with her Windows laptop, then? She never needed help with her phone, since she tossed the Android one for my old iPhone (ok, actually once, but that was a faulty charging cable)..
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  I don't know, why do generalizations sometimes fail on specific anecdotes? My relatives need help with iPhones and Windows devices about equally.

oneoff786 4y ago

So demand regulation against the tracking. Demanding everyone spread their butt cheeks to Apple because you like something that someone else could do is nonsense.

alaric410 4y ago

I see a lot of Apple fans make unsubstantiated claims that Apple's restrictions on its ecosystem is effective in stopping spam, malware, scams, etc... I have yet to see any data to back this up.

fingerlocks 4y ago
What kind of data are you looking for? Static analysis and Apple-signed binaries tied to developer profiles prevent the vast majority of abuses. For example, it’s possible to modify the Mach-O link loader on a compiled app like DoorDash to use a fake Apple Pay API that steals credit card numbers. But it’s very difficult to get that scammy app installed on an unsuspecting victim’s device. And it’s impossible to upload to the App Store. Third party App Store? No problem.
- emkoemko 4y ago
  tiktok sending your data to the CCP...
  - fingerlocks 4y ago
    Can you elaborate on how that will be prevented by the Digital Markets Act?
    - emkoemko 4y ago
      ?? how is Apple preventing this right now?
      - fingerlocks 4y ago
        ?? I never said they were
- alaric410 4y ago
  > Apple-signed binaries tied to developer profiles prevent the vast majority of abuses. More unsubstantiated claims > Third party App Store? No problem. Nonsense. Giving people choice does not mean opening the floodgates to malware. You can disable sideloading apps by default, but also enable them upon explicit user request. You can call it a "I'm a responsible adult" button. You don't need walled gardens for this. A sensible safe default with a pathway to disabling it is sufficient. You can't restrict choice for everyone just because a couple of tech-illiterate folks might make bad choices. It's silly and soon also illegal.

anhner 4y ago

> When Facebook mandates that to install Instagram you must sideload it from the Facebook store and your entire's family's location is being tracked 24/7 I hope you will thank Zuckerberg for all the freedom hes giving you How will the Instagram app evade iOS's security measures if it's sideloaded?

patchd 4y ago
Doesn’t go through app review when it’s side loaded, so it can have features that go against the ToS or app guidelines
- anhner 4y ago
  I think you misunderstand what the sandbox of the operating system does. An app cannot start tracking you 24/7 just because it's sideloaded.

ohgodplsno 4y ago

Oh yes please, I would love to see Facebook do that. They're already in hot enough water with GDPR, doing this would absolutely nuke them out of existence in the EU. I know it's a complicated concept to understand, but we have multiple sets of laws that are aimed at punishing exactly what you're saying. The DMA passing doesn't mean ePrivacy or GDPR is gone.

Siira 4y ago

> You could just not buy from Apple. The hardware scene is, in practice, quite monopolistic. This is especially true nowadays that Apple’s chips are vastly outcompeting others. I don’t know if this is because of some nefarious schemes or not, but even if it is a natural monopoly, it’s still a monopoly that might take years to be undone. There is no reason to extend this hardware monopoly to software as well though. Apple can enjoy their great margin on their hardware, without also controlling everyone’s most intimate devices.