7 ms·

People also tell to build wind and solar, while ignoring that those two needs to be backed up by coal and gas.

abakker 4y ago
or batteries / battery analogs. It is possible to solve this problem with tools we currently have. If we're thinking long term, we do not require coal or gas for power generation given sufficient hydro, wind, solar and storage. Cryogenic air, pumped hydro, and other storage designs are possible.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Chemical batteries are completely useless and expensive gimmick in state-wide storage of electric energy. Cost is main reason why it is cheaper to build coal/gas plant instead.
  - Pxtl 4y ago
    From what I've read batteries are the preferred option for short-term zero-emissions levelling but once you get into longer term stuff you start looking at storing compressed air or hydrogen in salt caverns. But hydrogen cracking/storage as a grid-level utility is still at the experimental stage.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      Power-to-gas (Hydrogen or Methane) as battery is from my perspective only viable solution. Everything else appears to be more or less elaborate attempt to suck subsidies, but provide inadequate system.
      - imtringued 4y ago
        Here is a cool pipe dream: https://heindl-energy.com/ https://heindl-energy.com/
        Pxtl 4y ago
        The only gravity storage that isn't nonsense is pumped hydro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGGOjD_OtAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGGOjD_OtAM
pydry 4y ago
Or pumped storage. People keep telling me that there arent enough geographical locations for it but all studies Ive seen refute this. E.g. https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-530000-potential-pumped-hydro-sites-worldwide https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-530000-potent... Never mind that nuclear isnt dispatchable either (ramping down production can be done but it basically just wastes energy) and also needs to be paired with storage or gas to work.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  There is not enough geographical locations. Sorry to bust your dream, but not every country in Europe is Switzerland or Austria with useful valleys and rivers in them
- rwcarlsen 4y ago
  Depending on who you talk to and your definitions, nuclear is generally considered dispatchable. The only definitively non-dispatchable sources are e.g. wind and solar where they cannot guarantee power levels and availability during the dispatching window. It is a bit of a spectrum - some sources (i.e. nat gas plants) are considered highly dispatchable because they can be spun up and down and adjust power levels very quickly (i.e. load following).
phh 4y ago
Does it? I feel like if we overbuild wind by like a factor of x5 in whole of Europe (on top of the median load factor, not assuming 100% of course), we would pretty much not need coal or gas. x5 ratio is still lower than nuclear reactor budget and time ratios overrun in the last 2 decades. That being said I'm all for not putting all our eggs in the same basket, and having both nuclear, wind, solar AND coal and gas plants is fine by me (but the plan must say that the coal and gas plants will never be in use, but they are ready "just in case")
- aembleton 4y ago
  What do we do when there is no wind?
  - Gwypaas 4y ago
    If there's a continent scale lack of wind in Europe I would be more afraid about the general state of our sun. Try find a windless day here. https://www.windy.com/?50.345,6.328,3 https://www.windy.com/?50.345,6.328,3
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      You mean like half of 2021? https://theconversation.com/what-europes-exceptionally-low-winds-mean-for-the-future-energy-grid-170135 https://theconversation.com/what-europes-exceptionally-low-w...
      - Gwypaas 4y ago
        We of course need to overbuild. You can do x4 for off shore wind and still come out ahead of nuclear. That map also corresponds to the time of year solar works 16 hours per day in Europe. It also shows that France Italy and the eastern part of the Baltics had more wind than usual.
        KptMarchewa 4y ago
        Wind capacity regularly drops below 10% in Poland. https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/PL https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/PL
cinntaile 4y ago
At this point the same goes for nuclear, if a reactor is offline you need some coal and or gas backup. Unless you have hydro.
- StillBored 4y ago
  First, as others have pointed out, Nukes can be throttled, they don't tend to be because its not economically efficient (basically the entire cost is front loaded in the construction). But there is a _HUGE_ difference between simply not having the capacity because the wind isn't blowing, and having to predict 12-24 hours in advance what the energy load is going to be. In the latter case its entirely possible to spin a nuke or coal plant up in anticipation of the need. Plus, if you overbuilt nukes, and could guarantee a consistent energy overproduction then you could build all kinds of energy soaking plants, to say desalinate sea water, produce various liquid fuels, etc as well as drive the acceptance of electric cars with free night/weekend charging schedules. This is actually one of my issues with the Biden administrations "we need more charging" stations drive recently. Charging stations are a problem that will fix themselves when people can look at electric cars and actually say "i'm not driving a coal burner around" and its a no brainier to charge this thing vs buying gas. Until recently that calculation isn't clear, your playing around the edges with the numbers, and the best cases aren't even 2x. Continent wide off peak free and clean electricity for charging makes it obvious which is better. When that happens gas stations will scramble to install charging.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    There's a story making the rounds here about a family who is out $11k because they bought a used ford fusion. Within 6 months of buying it, the battery died. If they could buy a replacement battery, it would run them another $14k, but they can't even do that, because the batteries for the fusion aren't being made anymore. The dealer offered them $500 to take the car off their hands. I think the current median price for a new electric car is something like $67k. Buying used is a bit like taking the gamble of not having health insurance- maybe you'll be fine, maybe you'll get a life-wrecking bill.
StillBored 4y ago
Right when you hear about power problem in TX, its _always_ when the wind isn't blowing. All that wind power has slowed investment in anything that isn't a gas plant, yet its all those gas plants running at 100% capacity and the wind basically producing at <10% which are a problem. Because apparently ERCOT is just adding the wind power (well based on some statistical weather analysis) to the total state capacity instead of assuming its 0% in their worse case calculations. During the shortages two weeks ago the wind farms were producing at 8% of rated capacity, and that isn't an unusual amount for this time of year. The wind farms do fantastic in the spring/fall when we don't need much energy, but then in the winter and summer they are frequently less than 15% of rated capacity.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Yep... you need 100% of use covered even if it's a windless night (no solar, no wind), and then turn off (eg hydro, gas) when you have both wind and sun. Puting just wind and sun infrastructure means constant blackouts.

or batteries / battery analogs. It is possible to solve this problem with tools we currently have. If we're thinking long term, we do not require coal or gas for power generation given sufficient hydro, wind, solar and storage. Cryogenic air, pumped hydro, and other storage designs are possible.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Chemical batteries are completely useless and expensive gimmick in state-wide storage of electric energy. Cost is main reason why it is cheaper to build coal/gas plant instead.
- Pxtl 4y ago
  From what I've read batteries are the preferred option for short-term zero-emissions levelling but once you get into longer term stuff you start looking at storing compressed air or hydrogen in salt caverns. But hydrogen cracking/storage as a grid-level utility is still at the experimental stage.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    Power-to-gas (Hydrogen or Methane) as battery is from my perspective only viable solution. Everything else appears to be more or less elaborate attempt to suck subsidies, but provide inadequate system.
    - imtringued 4y ago
      Here is a cool pipe dream: https://heindl-energy.com/ https://heindl-energy.com/
      - Pxtl 4y ago
        The only gravity storage that isn't nonsense is pumped hydro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGGOjD_OtAM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGGOjD_OtAM

pydry 4y ago

Or pumped storage. People keep telling me that there arent enough geographical locations for it but all studies Ive seen refute this. E.g. https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-530000-potential-pumped-hydro-sites-worldwide https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-530000-potent... Never mind that nuclear isnt dispatchable either (ramping down production can be done but it basically just wastes energy) and also needs to be paired with storage or gas to work.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
There is not enough geographical locations. Sorry to bust your dream, but not every country in Europe is Switzerland or Austria with useful valleys and rivers in them
rwcarlsen 4y ago
Depending on who you talk to and your definitions, nuclear is generally considered dispatchable. The only definitively non-dispatchable sources are e.g. wind and solar where they cannot guarantee power levels and availability during the dispatching window. It is a bit of a spectrum - some sources (i.e. nat gas plants) are considered highly dispatchable because they can be spun up and down and adjust power levels very quickly (i.e. load following).

phh 4y ago

Does it? I feel like if we overbuild wind by like a factor of x5 in whole of Europe (on top of the median load factor, not assuming 100% of course), we would pretty much not need coal or gas. x5 ratio is still lower than nuclear reactor budget and time ratios overrun in the last 2 decades. That being said I'm all for not putting all our eggs in the same basket, and having both nuclear, wind, solar AND coal and gas plants is fine by me (but the plan must say that the coal and gas plants will never be in use, but they are ready "just in case")

aembleton 4y ago
What do we do when there is no wind?
- Gwypaas 4y ago
  If there's a continent scale lack of wind in Europe I would be more afraid about the general state of our sun. Try find a windless day here. https://www.windy.com/?50.345,6.328,3 https://www.windy.com/?50.345,6.328,3
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    You mean like half of 2021? https://theconversation.com/what-europes-exceptionally-low-winds-mean-for-the-future-energy-grid-170135 https://theconversation.com/what-europes-exceptionally-low-w...
    - Gwypaas 4y ago
      We of course need to overbuild. You can do x4 for off shore wind and still come out ahead of nuclear. That map also corresponds to the time of year solar works 16 hours per day in Europe. It also shows that France Italy and the eastern part of the Baltics had more wind than usual.
      - KptMarchewa 4y ago
        Wind capacity regularly drops below 10% in Poland. https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/PL https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/PL

cinntaile 4y ago

At this point the same goes for nuclear, if a reactor is offline you need some coal and or gas backup. Unless you have hydro.

StillBored 4y ago
First, as others have pointed out, Nukes can be throttled, they don't tend to be because its not economically efficient (basically the entire cost is front loaded in the construction). But there is a _HUGE_ difference between simply not having the capacity because the wind isn't blowing, and having to predict 12-24 hours in advance what the energy load is going to be. In the latter case its entirely possible to spin a nuke or coal plant up in anticipation of the need. Plus, if you overbuilt nukes, and could guarantee a consistent energy overproduction then you could build all kinds of energy soaking plants, to say desalinate sea water, produce various liquid fuels, etc as well as drive the acceptance of electric cars with free night/weekend charging schedules. This is actually one of my issues with the Biden administrations "we need more charging" stations drive recently. Charging stations are a problem that will fix themselves when people can look at electric cars and actually say "i'm not driving a coal burner around" and its a no brainier to charge this thing vs buying gas. Until recently that calculation isn't clear, your playing around the edges with the numbers, and the best cases aren't even 2x. Continent wide off peak free and clean electricity for charging makes it obvious which is better. When that happens gas stations will scramble to install charging.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  There's a story making the rounds here about a family who is out $11k because they bought a used ford fusion. Within 6 months of buying it, the battery died. If they could buy a replacement battery, it would run them another $14k, but they can't even do that, because the batteries for the fusion aren't being made anymore. The dealer offered them $500 to take the car off their hands. I think the current median price for a new electric car is something like $67k. Buying used is a bit like taking the gamble of not having health insurance- maybe you'll be fine, maybe you'll get a life-wrecking bill.

StillBored 4y ago

Right when you hear about power problem in TX, its _always_ when the wind isn't blowing. All that wind power has slowed investment in anything that isn't a gas plant, yet its all those gas plants running at 100% capacity and the wind basically producing at <10% which are a problem. Because apparently ERCOT is just adding the wind power (well based on some statistical weather analysis) to the total state capacity instead of assuming its 0% in their worse case calculations. During the shortages two weeks ago the wind farms were producing at 8% of rated capacity, and that isn't an unusual amount for this time of year. The wind farms do fantastic in the spring/fall when we don't need much energy, but then in the winter and summer they are frequently less than 15% of rated capacity.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Yep... you need 100% of use covered even if it's a windless night (no solar, no wind), and then turn off (eg hydro, gas) when you have both wind and sun. Puting just wind and sun infrastructure means constant blackouts.