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> The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want - not that it's not the Chinese government. We had this dis

> The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want - not that it's not the Chinese government. We had this discussion after the Snowden leaks and nothing changed whatsoever. Back then it was the US government and the US gov had the chance to change the rules so this could not happen. Now they're up in arms because other governments do the exact same thing. It's really annoying. The differentiator here is national security, which raises an entirely different set of issues than the typical data collection and user privacy ones. It's like the difference between sharing your bank password with your wife vs. some dude you aren't very friendly with who has a history of wire fraud. "Treat everyone the same" is not a workable policy.

thematrixturtle 4y ago
That's... not a great analogy. I trust my wife a lot more than I trust Mark Zuckerberg (or Xi Jinping).
- TrispusAttucks 4y ago
  Yes but the United States government trusts Mark Zuckerberg more than Xi Jinping.
  - bjelkeman-again 4y ago
    Isn’t it that they can get access to all of Facebooks data on request, but not so with TikTok? I doubt trust comes into it.
  - cronix 4y ago
    Of course they do - they work together. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM
- sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
- lazide 4y ago
  Statistically, (and not knowing your wife), you’re a lot more likely to get sent to the poor house because of your wife than Mark Zuckerberg.
- gloryjulio 4y ago
  Because it's US vs China and companies like Meta/Google/Twitter are already treated poorly in China? Ppl are already asking these kind of questions even long before this, why should we allow companies such as Tiktok while so many 'Western' tech companies are banned in China?
  - lakomen 4y ago
    Are they? Which companies are those?
    - lakomen 4y ago
      What? Am I not allowed to question this ridiculous claim?
      - dahart 4y ago
        Are you referring to the claim that there are western tech companies blocked in mainland China? This is a well known fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
      - mliker 4y ago
        You should inform yourself of basic knowledge.
    - gloryjulio 4y ago
      You must be living under the rock if you don't know many products has been banned in China for many years, notably but not restricted to Facebook, Google, Twitter. https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/10-popular-apps-and-websites-blocked-in-china/instagram/photolist/76806131.cms https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/10-popular-apps-and-we... Apple's data in China is handled by China government affiliated entity https://technode.com/2018/01/10/apple-icloud-guizhou/ https://technode.com/2018/01/10/apple-icloud-guizhou/ . China's typical play book in tech field is to have the original products banned and have their own copycat flourish. They are already NOT playing fair.
- 6510 4y ago
  I trust Xi more than Zuckerberg.
  - Aaronstotle 4y ago
    Zuckerberg doesn't disappear people or put them in camps
    - cm42 4y ago
      OTOH, Xi has never imprisoned me for posting satire.
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        Has Zuckerberg?
        whateveracct 4y ago
        Internet ban = imprisonment and a human rights violation according to certain HNers lmaooo
thiagoharry 4y ago
> The differentiator here is national security, Which means that all countries other than the US also should be banning Facebook, and most US companies. As Snowden showed, most of them have a history of wire fraud.
- cochne 4y ago
  Probably, yes. Though it also depends on the country. I would be more OK with Canada having my data than China or Russia.
- giantg2 4y ago
  It's much more valuable to them as a data source on others. So they try to rely on training and forbidding their own personnel from using such things. I assume the tik tok app has more security concerns than the platform itself.
- Ajedi32 4y ago
  China did ban Facebook, as did Russia and North Korea. Countries where Facebook is not banned are largely allies of the US.
  - TehCorwiz 4y ago
    Don't forget that The EU is currently considering banning Facebook if changes to privacy and data security aren't made. https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/ban-on-facebook-data-transfers-between-eu-and-us-draws-closer-41821500.html https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/ban-on-facebo... https://news.yahoo.com/facebook-instagram-face-europe-ban-160705946.html https://news.yahoo.com/facebook-instagram-face-europe-ban-16...
    - jkaplowitz 4y ago
      The EU authorities themselves are not banning Facebook, per se, despite the headlines - the threat to remove Facebook from the European market comes from Facebook/Meta, because they don't want to comply with the expected upcoming order preventing them from transferring EU data subject data to the US. The thing that the EU officials are preparing could be described as a ban on data transfer, although it's really an order to comply more correctly with an existing law (the GDPR) rather than a new obligation. But it's not a ban on operating in the EU. If Facebook kept EU data subject data in the EU, or even if they use Standard Contractual Clauses to transfer it to different third countries without the same kind of problematic surveillance laws that the US has, there would be no issue.
Spooky23 4y ago
The issue is the data practices and propaganda capability. TikTok is supposedly a threat because Chicoms, but Facebook has no problem selling access to Russian influence operations. Maybe the issue is abusive social networks hoovering up data with no controls and no regulation.
rishav_sharan 4y ago
Except the "wife" here also has a habit of stealing from the family and of wire fraud.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rch 4y ago
More like a progression from monetizing attention (questionable), to political manipulation (already awful), to domestic government overreach (Texas), to hostile nation targeting specific people for coercion/malware (national security).
cruano 4y ago
> The differentiator here is national security Because no one can hack Facebook and get that data anyway? hell, maybe they don't even need to
- dylan604 4y ago
  Cambridge Analytica showed you don't need to hack. You just need to be a developer and have keys to the kingdom with a "gentleman's agreement" that you won't do anything hinky with the access you've been granted.
- 6510 4y ago
  No need to hack, if you have the right connections and enough money you can buy anything from the US gov, the US gov has access to all data and non US citizens have no rights.
seventytwo 4y ago
> It's like the difference between sharing your bank password with your wife vs. some dude you aren't very friendly with who has a history of wire fraud. "Treat everyone the same" is not a workable policy. This is exactly right.
twirlock 4y ago
jflatow 4y ago
The US government is not your wife no matter where you live
- tablespoon 4y ago
  >> It's like the difference between sharing your bank password with your wife vs. some dude you aren't very friendly with who has a history of wire fraud. "Treat everyone the same" is not a workable policy. > The US government is not your wife no matter where you live You're missing the point by taking the analogy too literally.
hammerheadtech 4y ago
Rubbish. China is less of a threat to anyone outside the US than the government inside the US. If the FCC clarified their stance and highlighted very specific threats, I might be swayed but only if it was demonstrated that the US government isn't doing exactly the same thing. All opaque data harvesting of public platforms, no matter who collects it, is bad. Your example is garbage as well. In both situations you highlighted you have something that you don't have in face of data harvesting...choice. You can decide whether or not to give your banking password to a stranger or your wife. You usually have no choice when it comes to data harvesting...because usually the data is harvested out of the backdoor of a platform by selling it on.
- dahart 4y ago
  > China is less of a threat to anyone outside the US than the government inside the US. Why do you believe this, and based on what evidence? By “anyone outside the US”, are you referring to the population of China? What US threats are you referring to, and why do you believe they’re worse in the US? While the US has ample room for improvement, as do all countries, there’s a fairly wide range of serious humanitarian issues that are documented and indexed by a large number of people globally, and there seems to be very little disagreement about how China compares to the US on various censorship and freedom rankings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
Not a good analogy. As a private citizen, my own national government having my private data is far more of a threat to me than Daddy Xi or Mr. Putin. Those two and their spooks are an ocean away. The local government is the one I need to live under.

thematrixturtle 4y ago

That's... not a great analogy. I trust my wife a lot more than I trust Mark Zuckerberg (or Xi Jinping).

TrispusAttucks 4y ago
Yes but the United States government trusts Mark Zuckerberg more than Xi Jinping.
- bjelkeman-again 4y ago
  Isn’t it that they can get access to all of Facebooks data on request, but not so with TikTok? I doubt trust comes into it.
- cronix 4y ago
  Of course they do - they work together. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM
sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
lazide 4y ago
Statistically, (and not knowing your wife), you’re a lot more likely to get sent to the poor house because of your wife than Mark Zuckerberg.
gloryjulio 4y ago
Because it's US vs China and companies like Meta/Google/Twitter are already treated poorly in China? Ppl are already asking these kind of questions even long before this, why should we allow companies such as Tiktok while so many 'Western' tech companies are banned in China?
- lakomen 4y ago
  Are they? Which companies are those?
  - lakomen 4y ago
    What? Am I not allowed to question this ridiculous claim?
    - dahart 4y ago
      Are you referring to the claim that there are western tech companies blocked in mainland China? This is a well known fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
    - mliker 4y ago
      You should inform yourself of basic knowledge.
  - gloryjulio 4y ago
    You must be living under the rock if you don't know many products has been banned in China for many years, notably but not restricted to Facebook, Google, Twitter. https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/10-popular-apps-and-websites-blocked-in-china/instagram/photolist/76806131.cms https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/10-popular-apps-and-we... Apple's data in China is handled by China government affiliated entity https://technode.com/2018/01/10/apple-icloud-guizhou/ https://technode.com/2018/01/10/apple-icloud-guizhou/ . China's typical play book in tech field is to have the original products banned and have their own copycat flourish. They are already NOT playing fair.
6510 4y ago
I trust Xi more than Zuckerberg.
- Aaronstotle 4y ago
  Zuckerberg doesn't disappear people or put them in camps
  - cm42 4y ago
    OTOH, Xi has never imprisoned me for posting satire.
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      Has Zuckerberg?
      - whateveracct 4y ago
        Internet ban = imprisonment and a human rights violation according to certain HNers lmaooo

thiagoharry 4y ago

> The differentiator here is national security, Which means that all countries other than the US also should be banning Facebook, and most US companies. As Snowden showed, most of them have a history of wire fraud.

cochne 4y ago
Probably, yes. Though it also depends on the country. I would be more OK with Canada having my data than China or Russia.
giantg2 4y ago
It's much more valuable to them as a data source on others. So they try to rely on training and forbidding their own personnel from using such things. I assume the tik tok app has more security concerns than the platform itself.
Ajedi32 4y ago
China did ban Facebook, as did Russia and North Korea. Countries where Facebook is not banned are largely allies of the US.
- TehCorwiz 4y ago
  Don't forget that The EU is currently considering banning Facebook if changes to privacy and data security aren't made. https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/ban-on-facebook-data-transfers-between-eu-and-us-draws-closer-41821500.html https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/ban-on-facebo... https://news.yahoo.com/facebook-instagram-face-europe-ban-160705946.html https://news.yahoo.com/facebook-instagram-face-europe-ban-16...
  - jkaplowitz 4y ago
    The EU authorities themselves are not banning Facebook, per se, despite the headlines - the threat to remove Facebook from the European market comes from Facebook/Meta, because they don't want to comply with the expected upcoming order preventing them from transferring EU data subject data to the US. The thing that the EU officials are preparing could be described as a ban on data transfer, although it's really an order to comply more correctly with an existing law (the GDPR) rather than a new obligation. But it's not a ban on operating in the EU. If Facebook kept EU data subject data in the EU, or even if they use Standard Contractual Clauses to transfer it to different third countries without the same kind of problematic surveillance laws that the US has, there would be no issue.

Spooky23 4y ago

The issue is the data practices and propaganda capability. TikTok is supposedly a threat because Chicoms, but Facebook has no problem selling access to Russian influence operations. Maybe the issue is abusive social networks hoovering up data with no controls and no regulation.

rishav_sharan 4y ago

Except the "wife" here also has a habit of stealing from the family and of wire fraud.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rch 4y ago

More like a progression from monetizing attention (questionable), to political manipulation (already awful), to domestic government overreach (Texas), to hostile nation targeting specific people for coercion/malware (national security).

cruano 4y ago

> The differentiator here is national security Because no one can hack Facebook and get that data anyway? hell, maybe they don't even need to

dylan604 4y ago
Cambridge Analytica showed you don't need to hack. You just need to be a developer and have keys to the kingdom with a "gentleman's agreement" that you won't do anything hinky with the access you've been granted.
6510 4y ago
No need to hack, if you have the right connections and enough money you can buy anything from the US gov, the US gov has access to all data and non US citizens have no rights.

seventytwo 4y ago

> It's like the difference between sharing your bank password with your wife vs. some dude you aren't very friendly with who has a history of wire fraud. "Treat everyone the same" is not a workable policy. This is exactly right.

twirlock 4y ago

jflatow 4y ago

The US government is not your wife no matter where you live

tablespoon 4y ago
>> It's like the difference between sharing your bank password with your wife vs. some dude you aren't very friendly with who has a history of wire fraud. "Treat everyone the same" is not a workable policy. > The US government is not your wife no matter where you live You're missing the point by taking the analogy too literally.

hammerheadtech 4y ago

Rubbish. China is less of a threat to anyone outside the US than the government inside the US. If the FCC clarified their stance and highlighted very specific threats, I might be swayed but only if it was demonstrated that the US government isn't doing exactly the same thing. All opaque data harvesting of public platforms, no matter who collects it, is bad. Your example is garbage as well. In both situations you highlighted you have something that you don't have in face of data harvesting...choice. You can decide whether or not to give your banking password to a stranger or your wife. You usually have no choice when it comes to data harvesting...because usually the data is harvested out of the backdoor of a platform by selling it on.

dahart 4y ago
> China is less of a threat to anyone outside the US than the government inside the US. Why do you believe this, and based on what evidence? By “anyone outside the US”, are you referring to the population of China? What US threats are you referring to, and why do you believe they’re worse in the US? While the US has ample room for improvement, as do all countries, there’s a fairly wide range of serious humanitarian issues that are documented and indexed by a large number of people globally, and there seems to be very little disagreement about how China compares to the US on various censorship and freedom rankings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices

BeFlatXIII 4y ago

Not a good analogy. As a private citizen, my own national government having my private data is far more of a threat to me than Daddy Xi or Mr. Putin. Those two and their spooks are an ocean away. The local government is the one I need to live under.